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Chuckeee

macrumors 68000
Aug 18, 2023
1,887
4,908
Southern California
Just wondering if this version of the M4 “Hydra” chip would be exclusively available just for the new M4 Mac Pro? An M4 version that run too hot for a Mac Studio enclosure. Add a bit more processing capability distinction between the Mac Pro and the upper-end Mac Studio
 
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HobeSoundDarryl

macrumors G5
As long as you don't want to use external GPUs to "run a monitor" or "play a game", I expect Apple might support external GPUs for other hardware acceleration or special workloads.

Why could it not run a monitor (or monitors) or play a game? There is no massive delay between graphics on Silicon and hypothetical graphics in a card slot... any more than former MBs being able to use Intel graphics at lower power vs. dedicated AMD graphics. Electrons move crazy fast. In fact, just yesterday, I fired up an old 2012 MBpro and didn't really notice any difference in speed in usual use tasks vs. my Mac Studio Ultra setup... and temporarily linked it to a monitor with no noticeable difference.

I think we've imagined this great gap between Apple RAM & Graphics vs. traditional but all one has to do is fire up any old Mac to see that it's towards not noticeable if not entirely unnoticeable. We humans are not fast enough to notice unless we break out software tools to measure the very, VERY fine differences in processing speed.

Technically, is there some speed advantage? Yes. But is it a noticeable one even in gaming or running a monitor? No or perhaps barely for someone with a keen eye. If there isn't benchmark software to illustrate differences, I'm not so sure any of us could notice.
 
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HobeSoundDarryl

macrumors G5
Just wondering if this version of the M4 “Hydra” chip would be exclusively available just for the new M4 Mac Pro? An M4 version that run too hot for a Mac Studio enclosure. Add a bit more processing capability distinction between the Mac Pro and the upper-end Mac Studio

When imagining hypothetical chips, anything is possible. And while we're at it, more imagination can resurrect liquid cooling or similar to not let it run too hot.

I generally buy rumors about a dedicated Ultra chips (no longer 2 MAXes linked together). For a product like Mac Pro, why not slot 2 or 4 of those, not necessarily directly (hardware) linked with some new version of a "grand central" to parse the tasks out over multiple Ultras? Conceptually, that should allow the spin of 2X Ultra or even 4X Ultra (4 chips). There would be a lot of redundancy but a 2X ultra Mac Pro could launch with more Thunderbolt ports too, run many more monitors in a multi-monitor setup, etc. as it could be viewed like 2 or 4 Studios in one case.

In other words, this WOULD pile up a lot of tangible unique benefits of Mac Pro over Mac Studio vs. the "as is" which mostly differentiates with only "slots" (seemingly very, VERY expensive slots). If a Studio can handle- what is it- 3-5 monitors, a duo ultra Mac Pro could handle 6-10 and a quad could handle 12-20. If a Studio can have 4 Thunderbolt ports, a duo could have up to 8 and a quad could have up to 16 ("up to" because I presume some of those channels would be siphoned off for the internal slots). Pro would have slots. Etc. In marketing more technicals, multiple Ultras would come with far more core counts, far more graphics cores, far more Apple RAM upside, far more Apple SSD upside, etc. Basically, there would be very clear differentiation between Mac Pro and Mac Studio and Pro would be for the high power users who basically need 2+ Ultras in one case.

While we're in imagination mode, why not build in an Intel setup too, so that Pro would be the only Mac still able to be a true 2-in-1 (macOS and PC in one platform), maybe with the ability to share RAM & SSDs & external graphics on cards up in the slots (shared slots???)? Personally, I greatly valued the 2-in-1 benefit of Intel Macs (it was a substantial benefit to have BOTH macOS and Windows with me when I visited clients and no, ARM Windows is not full Windows). Part of the rationalization for the "Apple premium" was that I was putting money that would otherwise need to buy a PC towards the same box. Now that's gone (unless ARM Windows is enough for some). So this would be another very tangible benefit of a hypothetical Pro vs. all other Macs.

Among other things, this idea would flip the hackintosh concept with now Apple building the beast. And since Apple wants a relative fortune for Mac Pro, part of the rationalization of paying up for it would be the bonus of also buying a PC Tower too... vs. the "as is" where to get pretty much the same one might pay way up for Studio Ultra for the maximum Mac side and then a loaded PC tower to get full Windows and slots. In this 2-in-1, maybe Mac Pro macOS could leverage the PC hardware like an added coprocessor for some tasks too? Hardware focused on power instead of PPW has some processing benefits and a desktop should not be overly influenced by concepts related to maximizing battery life in a battery it does not have.

Build this Mac Pro and I get more interested than basically Mac Studio with some slots in a big case that Pro is now. As is, I went the "separate worlds" way by buying a PC for the first time in 20+ years. I opted to step up that PC with lots of SSD storage, more RAM, gaming graphics card such that I put about $2K towards it alone. Then, since I needed a monitor for 2 computers, I bypassed the Apple-branded one with one input for another with more inputs. Thus, Apple lost the added revenue for PC and monitor I would have paid for another 2-in-1 Mac: about $4K that could have gone towards Apple products if they could handle these wants... as all Macs used to be able to do. In the above concept, this Apple Hackintosh would certainly work with an Apple monitor which then might keep more money flow going to Apple. Apparently Apple Inc likes maximizing revenue per unit sold. Make Mac Pro more useful along such lines (a classic added value mix of benefits) and money that went to others could go to Apple instead. 💰💰💰

And the trick is if you weigh loaded Studio Ultra PLUS about $4K towards a fairly loaded PC plus third party monitor, you get right into the range of a Mac Pro and Apple monitor... especially if that combo would price an ASD more like iMac 27" pricing MINUS some value assigned to what was removed: entire Mac + keyboard + mouse... instead of seeking full price for that monitor alone.
 
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tubular

macrumors 65816
Oct 19, 2011
1,294
3,112
Apple's laid down the law -- the one true graphics API on Apple Silicon Macs is Metal, and any other API requires a translation layer (like MoltenVK for Vulkan).

After working so hard to build that corral, I can't see them breaking it down again just for a notional set of the highest high-end users, the ones for whom a fully-jacked Studio isn't enough.
 

jaster2

macrumors regular
Jun 21, 2010
101
115
I've had a few Mac towers over the years and it was nice to be able to add RAM and multiple internal drives whenever needed. I really don't find I need that capability anymore. The Mac Studio is fantastic. The Mac Pro has been over-engineered IMO. Seemed like most people just wanted them to update the mid 2000s model with the same flexibility and price but Apple has gone all over the place with it.
 
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adamw

macrumors 6502a
Sep 22, 2006
753
1,828
The Mac Pro with the M4 Ultra or "Hidra" chip looks to be impressive for AI Generation Tasks and Content Creation/Video Editing. I hope that Apple will release this at an affordable price.
 

tenthousandthings

Contributor
May 14, 2012
62
83
New Haven, CT
Just wondering if this version of the M4 “Hydra” chip would be exclusively available just for the new M4 Mac Pro? An M4 version that run too hot for a Mac Studio enclosure. Add a bit more processing capability distinction between the Mac Pro and the upper-end Mac Studio
See my comment #74 above re: SoW. I haven’t had time to read more, and the news is still filtering out, but it seems promising.

One thing (among many!) I don’t have a handle on is what it would cost to design and build a dedicated monolithic Max+ that could then be multiplied in the Mac Pro, beyond the costs already absorbed by the Max itself. Sounds expensive, but if the Max+ just doubled selected elements (similar to what they did with the M1/M2 Pro versus Max), then maybe the additional development costs wouldn’t be prohibitive…
 
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jb310

macrumors member
Aug 24, 2017
76
162
Considering the Mac Studio offers almost the exact same specs as the Pro for a much cheaper price, I wonder if Apple will do anything to make the Mac Pro more "special?" 😅
 

steveheffern

macrumors newbie
Sep 9, 2022
7
14
Iowa
Please, please, please build this bad boy in a way that lets you upgrade the SOC to newer versions so we can just keep the chassis, power supply and pci alone and just upgrade the brains every year. Otherwise all this talking about saving the planet by reducing waste is just noise. Hey, sell the SOC as a service. When a new one is available automatically ship the swappable SOC to subscribers with a postage paid return box.

For film production we always need something faster than you can deliver.
 

Torty

macrumors 65816
Oct 16, 2013
1,054
816
Late 2025 doesn’t make sense to me cause then the M5 comes out with the most improved AI cores ever.
 

DavidSchaub

macrumors 6502
Jun 16, 2016
424
480
Why could it not run a monitor (or monitors) or play a game?
Oh... you want a good reason... Sorry, I can't really give you one.

My answer: "Apple doesn't to"

Apple wants to focus its engineering on optimizing its OS for its shared memory integrated GPUs?
 

wonderings

macrumors 6502a
Nov 19, 2021
664
558
I've had a few Mac towers over the years and it was nice to be able to add RAM and multiple internal drives whenever needed. I really don't find I need that capability anymore. The Mac Studio is fantastic. The Mac Pro has been over-engineered IMO. Seemed like most people just wanted them to update the mid 2000s model with the same flexibility and price but Apple has gone all over the place with it.
Those were the good old days when "pro" computers were actually pro computers. This meant speed as well as options to upgrade yourself. Now it is all focused on speed alone and if you don't get what you need then into the junk pile it goes and get another one... really green thinking on Apples part, though it might be the green colour of money and not green environment.

If they went to the back to the Dual G5's Mac towers that would be amazing. Great design that still holds up today. Super clean, well thought out and gave the user actual options to do what they need to do and add what they need to down the road. It is no wonder that no Mac Pro desktop has really worked and sold well since that old design.
 

nathansz

macrumors 65816
Jul 24, 2017
1,258
1,445
I have tools at work with racks of 18 Mac Pros in them.

what kind of work do you do that you have a tool running on 18 Mac pros?!?

I'm mostly just surprised anything like that would be running on arm macOS
 

maxoakland

macrumors 6502a
Oct 6, 2021
718
1,025
There are investment and architectural tradeoffs that Apple is making.

Intel, AMD, and Nvidia can spend a lot of resources on high-performance computing, because they all have huge markets to sell in to. Apple's market size is so small, it must be quite an internal challenge to argue for burning a lot of money with limited RoI.

Had Apple gotten the M1 or M2 Quadra (4x M* Max) working, maybe most of this wouldn't have been as much of a problem.
Then it was a mistake for them to dump Intel in that machine before they were able to adequately replace it

That wasn’t a user-friendly decision. Seems like it was motivated by the desire to avoid supporting Intel macOS as soon as possible instead of concern for the best customer experience
 
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bcomer

macrumors regular
Jan 25, 2008
195
137
Ottawa
They should fix the huge bug that prevents card mounted SSD drives from mounting on 2019 and later Mac Pros. Total failure on Apple’s end for not fixing this major issue.
 
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citysnaps

macrumors G4
Oct 10, 2011
11,939
25,881
What exactly can you put in a Mac Pro's PCI slot anyway? What can it do that a Studio Ultra can't?

Here's how an award winning film/TV composer and music editor uses the PCIe slots in his rack-mount MacPro (coming from a kluge of external PCIe expanders and trashcan MacPros). He'll be converting to Apple Silicon MacPros soon.

 

lkrupp

macrumors 68000
Jul 24, 2004
1,893
3,910
The 500GB unified memory option is interesting. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if that includes user upgradeable modules, even if they have to be Apple branded.

And the feud between Nvidia and Apple continues forever I guess.
 

nathansz

macrumors 65816
Jul 24, 2017
1,258
1,445
Here's how an award winning film/TV composer and music editor uses the PCIe slots in his rack-mount MacPro (coming from a kluge of external PCIe expanders and trashcan MacPros). He'll be converting to Apple Silicon MacPros soon.


I count more than 7 cards there

That’s going to be a problem no?

Edit: one Mac Pro slot is already filled right? So you only get 6?
 

mBox

macrumors 68020
Jun 26, 2002
2,361
86
Funny when the Mac Pro is in the news, you get all these crazy questions. Okay some are just obvious tire kickers.
Look its for a specific user and we know what the unit does for us.
Currently I have two 2019 MP and waiting for it to explode before I buy another.
That could be a long time :)
 
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