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Apple's App Store Rejection Policies Raise Concerns

HLdan said:
Your logic so flawed. News flash, the free apps are a lure to get you to knowing the developer so when they offer a great app that you have to pay for you may be more willing to buy it. Sheesh, you don't see that?

Without developers the app store would be empty?? LOL. Try this, without the app store it's one less opportunity for developers to build their business. The app store is hot, don't downplay it. Ever heard of a starving artist? For many developers, making applications is all they do and many of them are dependent upon the app store to build their business.
Take a business class, maybe you will understand why some apps appear "free".

The only thing I do agree with is that Apple needs to revamp their policies so developers will know what to do but I don't think that will stop developers from going at the app store reckless abandon.
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Haha. So, by your logic, eventually, once all these "developers' have established themselves, everything in the App Store will be payware? Your logic is flawed!

Why are insisting on every developer being a "businessman"..? Yes, there is a few businesses that will be developing for the App Store (EA for example), but the majority of applications are just the average Joe Bloggs making an application. Some are out there to make money, but most are just there to create something and get a buzz that there is people out there who will be using their application daily. Check out "iProcastinate" app, that a forum user here made. That is an example of people who just want to create a cool app and are happy and satisfied that so many people are using it.

Not everyone is out there to make money. I need to take a business class? You need to get your head checked. You are so filled with the corporation bullcrap about money money money money. Really, is your only satisfaction in life money?

Even Steve Jobs himself said that he imagined that most of the applications on the App Store would be free.
 
HLdan said:
I certainly would like to know how old most of you are here? I'm getting the feeling it's nothing but a bunch of immature 12-16 yr olds here. Most of you haven't experienced real life yet. If you work for a company and everything seems to be going well (as you think it is) the company can still fire you for any reason rather it makes sense to you or not.
I'm laughing at the people who are saying, "Apple should be careful as they will scare off developers". I don't think so! People are dying to find a job every single day of the year so if a company can fire you (which prohibits you from displaying your talents) the company is not at all worried that they will scare off people looking to work for their company.
Developers are just like anyone else looking for a job and the app store is a great vehicle for them to showcase their work and to make money. Apple does not need to please the developers in order for them to keep from losing them. 2 months ago there was no app store and now there are hundreds of applications from 3rd party developers.
Some of you need to grow up, Apple is in no danger of losing developers for the app store. There are more developers in line for the app store than for any other smart phone.
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I understand what you are saying here, but I think your logic is flawed (and for the record, I'm 42 and have run my own business for the last 10 years or so) - As a business owner, I have to look at cost justification for everything we do:

If I pull 2 or 3 developers off another project for 3 months to develop an application on another platform, there is a degree of risk involved that it won't sell, and that has to be factored in to any decision as the up front cost is likely to be in the region of $30,000+ (for lost income we could have been charging on other projects).
You minimize that risk by doing decent market research to establish if there is a market for the product you are developing.

Now, with the App Store you have a fantastic route to market unrivaled by any other mobile platform. However, there is now also the risk that if you release something groundbreaking or revolutionary, Apple will reject it for an arbitrary reason.

You can do all the market research you want and create the best application in the world and still have it rejected by Apple and have your entire market cut off for no reason that is easily determined at the start.

For large companies, that risk is probably still worth taking as $30,000 is not a huge amount of money to invest. For hobbyists, that risk may be worth taking because it won't cost them real money if they develop in their spare time.

However, for small companies such as mine where $30,000 represents approximately 5-10% of our total income for the year, that risk is possibly not worth taking.

Will it stop us developing for the App store? probably not because, as I said it is a fantastic route to market
Will it stop us "pushing the boundaries" with apps for the store? Probably, yes because I don't want to burn $30,000 on the whim of someone making an arbitrary decision

The net result of this is that we will "play it safe" to ensure our apps are accepted and the App store will begin to stagnate if more and more people feel the same.
 
HLdan said:
No, you know why? Because this world is built upon challenge. "Tell me what I can't do and I will keep on until you accept what I am offering".
I mentioned age because most of you at that age don't have any REAL financial responsibilities such as paying rent, mortgage, food, kids...etc. Because of this you don't seem to understand that people in need to build their business don't scare off that easily.
Apple sells the most exciting and top selling mobile device on the market which has a store inside of it where I can build an app that makes me money over time. Apple tells me, "You can't have this app on our store". A real entrepreneur would say, "Well, I have a business to build and bills to pay so I will conform to Apple's rules and build an app that will be accepted since my chances of making money are better on the app store than anywhere else".
Click to expand...

It doesn't matter how exciting the platform is, if you application wont be approved until it is completed and there is no gurantee the Apple will accept it because they can reject it based on the grounds they didn't get enough sleep last night, still too hung over from last nights party (valid reasons under their terms) then why would you spend the money/effort to develop for the system? Why would you start the development work for an application when you can't be sure of acceptance.

The only people out there who are in a good position to get all their apps approved are the big software companies like SAP, Oracle, Sega etc as Apple wants to ensure they can get the business apps on there so they can compete with Windows Mobile and Blackberry, and the other major software houses that produce games etc so they can get more expensive content and get a bigger share of the revenue.

Of course, Apple did initially approve "I am rich", maybe because they could get $300 per sale, and they have also approved although I believe they are free applications which makes the screen bright white to make your iPhone a torch. hmmmm.....
 
see this is what i dont understand:

First, people bitch that so many "crappy or useless" apps are out there and that apple should do something about it and screen them.

Now that they are starting to actually do this, people bitch that they are rejecting apps.

WTF is going on?:confused:
 
Competition

Developers should demand the right to compete (in court if necessary).

If you believe your app does something better than the native app, and as long as you note that the app does it too and are honest in your explanation of the differences, it is called competition.

If an app starts to sell well and Apple wants to adopt the added functions, that is competition. But to not allow the sale is anti-competitive. THAT is against the law.

Most people will use the native app if it does what they want it to. If it doesn't they will want an independent one that does. This PROMOTES development and in the end, everybody wins. To do otherwise is SOOO Microsludge!

Shape up APPLE! And Developers, go after them!

R.Kelley (not that R. Kelly)
 
rkzerok said:
Developers should demand the right to compete (in court if necessary).

If an app starts to sell well and Apple wants to adopt the added functions, that is competition. But to not allow the sale is anti-competitive. THAT is against the law.
Shape up APPLE! And Developers, go after them!
R.Kelley (not that R. Kelly)
Click to expand...
I guess it's safe to say that you have no legal background.
 
6.2 Selection by Apple for Distribution

You understand and agree that Apple may, in its sole discretion:

(a) determine that Your Application does not meet all or any part of the Documentation or Program Requirements then in effect;

(b) reject Your Application for distribution for any reason, even if Your Application meets the Documentation and Program Requirements; or

(c) select and digitally sign Your Application for distribution via the App Store.

Apple shall not be responsible for any costs, expenses, damages, losses (including without limitation lost business opportunities or lost profits) or other liabilities You may incur as a result of Your Application development, use of this Apple Software, or participation in the Program, including without limitation the fact that Your Application may not be selected for distribution via the App Store...

Case closed
 
Phil A. said:
I understand what you are saying here, but I think your logic is flawed (and for the record, I'm 42 and have run my own business for the last 10 years or so) - As a business owner, I have to look at cost justification for everything we do:
Click to expand...

Interesting, we have something in common, I am 43 yrs old and I run my own business in insurance for the last 10 years. Your income is in line with most people with a small business so of all people you should know if can't be successful in your business they way you are doing it and your work is being rejected then you have to do what it takes to correct the issue. The answer certainly wouldn't be to run away with a bad attitude and cry out NO FAIR to the people that rejected your work.
 
rkzerok said:
Developers should demand the right to compete (in court if necessary).
Click to expand...

Can I sue for access to the food in your fridge?

I don't like the policy either, but I believe Apple should have the right to do what they please with their creation.
 
So where are all the developers in this conversation? They don't have time to log in. They are laughing all the way to the bank.

Don't get me wrong. I love the idea of the app store, have purchased some good apps, some really bad apps and tried a lot of each for free.

There is a tremendous amount of money being made here in a VERY short period of time. It is very questionable how much of it is really deserved but thats the way it is.

This is Apples business they are trying to create. The app store is immature. Who else has anything even close to this? Who else will? Where are they? Oh yeah, they're still talkin' bout it!
 
jbernie said:
Why would you start the development work for an application when you can't be sure of acceptance.
Click to expand...

That's the risk we take. Companies do it everyday, one prime example, Microsoft's new ads, I don't get any of them but Microsoft is taking the risk by spending tons of money on it hoping that they accomplish whatever they are trying to accomplish.

If the public rejects MS's ads after MS spent millions wasting their time is that suppose to stop Microsoft from creating an ad that's accepted? NO.
 
megfilmworks said:
6.2 Selection by Apple for Distribution

You understand and agree that Apple may, in its sole discretion:

(b) reject Your Application for distribution for any reason, even if Your Application meets the Documentation and Program Requirements; or
Click to expand...

Apple has...
a headache...
a sore tummy....
its bf/gf left it last night...
the wife/hubby isnt putting out....
lunch sucked....
traffic sucks...
why did i get dumped doing OT this weekend?... again!!! ...
i didnt get a raise....
gosh the developer of this app has no idea on color...
why do we have to go bowling? why cant the team go play tennis?..
the guy over in accounting is creeping me out....
my friend has a similar app that i want to promote more....
my friend has a similar app coming that i will approve so i will deny this one....
i heard from a friend of friend who may work in sw development that in 5 years we might do something like this...
oops... wrong button....
crap is that the time?!?! i better get through this pile in 5 minutes so i can get the bus... yay, nay , nay , yay, yay, nay, etc....

All valid reasons for Apple to reject an application being approved for the App Store.

ponder it for a while.

not saying in any way Apple is doing this.... but they are valid reasons.
 
I think for the sake of us all, those who have created apps for the App store and were rejected should get together and make a case of this in court. Apple's terms that they are can do anything without reason is unbalanced and so, unfair.

And that, my friends, is case closed! :)
 
HLdan said:
That's the risk we take. Companies do it everyday, one prime example, Microsoft's new ads, I don't get any of them but Microsoft is taking the risk by spending tons of money on it hoping that they accomplish whatever they are trying to accomplish.

If the public rejects MS's ads after MS spent millions wasting their time is that suppose to stop Microsoft from creating an ad that's accepted? NO.
Click to expand...

Yes, but unlike your examples, if Apple reject an application there is no recourse. You can't sell it through your own store, you can't sell it through any other store at all. It is Apple's App Store or nothing. You have 1 option. And maybe a 50/50 chance at that.

Write an application for OSX, you can put it in a pretty box and sell it online via your website, maybe Bestbuy, Microcenter, Frys etc will sell it for you as well, if no one else takes it on, you can still sell it yourself and the customers are still able to install it. With the App Store, if you don't get on there then it won't be anywhere, no other sales channel exists.

You seem to have forgotten this small, but very important fact.
 
mdriftmeyer said:
Oh what a load of crap. And with this advisement have you paid them millions for not developing seeing as some of these developers are on their way to that achievement?
Click to expand...
I don't understand your reasoning. Few will make that kind of money, just as few will make $1E5s on the lottery; information on potential is useless without information on probability.

Now a business must factor in that it could spend, say, $1E4s to low $1E5s on months of development only to be refused out of hand. If you can afford that sort of sunken cost, bully for you - many can't, and sole traders/small firms who must be more risk averse may be under-represented. Or perhaps more will release toy apps because they can't risk a high investment - this seems to be exactly what's happened to the AppStore.

This is just another goldrush that the Internet is so good at entertaining each new generation with every few years, but with an unusual element of risk unless you have the clout to take Apple aside for renegotiation.
 
EricBrian said:
I think for the sake of us all, those who have created apps for the App store and were rejected should get together and make a case of this in court. Apple's terms that they are can do anything without reason is unbalanced and so, unfair.

And that, my friends, is case closed! :)
Click to expand...

....every business has terms that run along the same lines, such as terminating contracts for any reason. Apple isnt doing anything new with their rules for the app store....
 
jbernie said:
Yes, but unlike your examples, if Apple reject an application there is no recourse. You can't sell it through your own store, you can't sell it through any other store at all. It is Apple's App Store or nothing. You have 1 option. And maybe a 50/50 chance at that.

Write an application for OSX, you can put it in a pretty box and sell it online via your website, maybe Bestbuy, Microcenter, Frys etc will sell it for you as well, if no one else takes it on, you can still sell it yourself and the customers are still able to install it. With the App Store, if you don't get on there then it won't be anywhere, no other sales channel exists.

You seem to have forgotten this small, but very important fact.
Click to expand...

see the thing is, all that is in the terms of the app store. You know what you are getting into when youget into the the app store. You cant call foul AFTER agreeing to the terms.
 
EricBrian said:
I think for the sake of us all, those who have created apps for the App store and were rejected should get together and make a case of this in court. Apple's terms that they are can do anything without reason is unbalanced and so, unfair.

And that, my friends, is case closed! :)
Click to expand...

If you are looking for Fantasyland, it's next to Frontierland.
(not in Superior Court)
 
HLdan said:
That's the risk we take. Companies do it everyday, one prime example, Microsoft's new ads, I don't get any of them but Microsoft is taking the risk by spending tons of money on it hoping that they accomplish whatever they are trying to accomplish.

If the public rejects MS's ads after MS spent millions wasting their time is that suppose to stop Microsoft from creating an ad that's accepted? NO.
Click to expand...

Microsoft's latest ad failed, because it was stupid and didn't actually advertise or promote Windows in any way.

How can that be the same as a perfectly good working application that gets rejected for a vague reason?

It is a risk creating software and selling it. If no one buys it, you failed. However, that isn't the same as how Apple is playing their game. It shouldn't be a game to trying to get your application submitted.

Apple should be taking pride in the fact that so many people are dedicated to working for their platform, and innovate by structuring the App Store better, so applications (like Pull My Finger) that are perfectly good applications aren't put to waste.
 
EricBrian said:
I think for the sake of us all, those who have created apps for the App store and were rejected should get together and make a case of this in court. Apple's terms that they are can do anything without reason is unbalanced and so, unfair.

And that, my friends, is case closed! :)
Click to expand...

Actually, since the app store is the only avenue to get apps on the iPhone and Apple is rejecting apps which compete with it's own apps, a case could be brought against Apple claiming monopolistic practices. They are limiting competition through an artificial barrier to entry that they control.

What's funny is that this whole thing would be a non-issue if Apple just let users install apps on their own. They could still control the app store all they want and users who are rejected could still distribute their apps through a different means. Problem solved!
 
HLdan said:
Interesting, we have something in common, I am 43 yrs old and I run my own business in insurance for the last 10 years. Your income is in line with most people with a small business so of all people you should know if can't be successful in your business they way you are doing it and your work is being rejected then you have to do what it takes to correct the issue. The answer certainly wouldn't be to run away with a bad attitude and cry out NO FAIR to the people that rejected your work.
Click to expand...

As I intimated in my original post, I don't think it's devs that will suffer: We will continue to make applications and take advantage of the fantastic marketing opportunities it provides.
However, I think what will happen is devs will become less and less inclined to "push the envelope" and will stick to applications that are guaranteed to be accepted - games, simple utilities, etc and the store will stagnate as apps that may have been accepted will not be developed for fear that Apple will reject it
 
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