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Apple's Chip Partner TSMC to Begin Mass Production of 5nm Chips at New Arizona Factory in 2024

The most advanced process is mostly only used for bleeding edge CPUs/SoCs. But over 50% of todays market is “mature process”; 65nm, 40nm and 28nm. It’s used for things like automotive sector, aerospace, analog ICs, power management chips, display drivers, microcontrollers, and sensors and pretty much any industry using ICs. Some fabs are currently expanding their 28nm capacity due to a lot of demand.

If TSMC is building a 5nm fab it’s because they’re seeing strong future demand for this node and comparatively it’s not that old by then.
 
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Hyperchaotic said:
The most advanced process is mostly only used for bleeding edge CPUs/SoCs. But over 50% of todays market is “mature process”; 65nm, 40nm and 28nm. It’s used for things like automotive sector, aerospace, analog ICs, power management chips, display drivers, microcontrollers, and sensors and pretty much any industry using ICs. Some fabs are currently expanding their 28nm capacity due to a lot of demand.

If TSMC is building a 5nm fab it’s because they’re seeing strong future demand for this node and comparatively it’s not that old by then.
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Sure, but then let’s not pretend this is exciting news. There will be lots of other fabs making 5nm in the U.S. by then.
 
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it is quite funny to read the responses here ... maybe TSMC has better insight into what the customer demand is for 5nm over the net several years? remember, Apple is not the only customer ...
Also, this is a Greenfield site for TSMC, no exiting TSMC talent, support and what not in AZ, so why start this off on the latest tech node that will require support and expertise from a lot of people, not only TSMC but also the equipment suppliers, and yes, there are Intel fabs and others in AZ, but none on the mot advanced nodes - it's a smart business decision by TSMC ...
 
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jz0309 said:
it is quite funny to read the responses here ... maybe TSMC has better insight into what the customer demand is for 5nm over the net several years? remember, Apple is not the only customer ...
Also, this is a Greenfield site for TSMC, no exiting TSMC talent, support and what not in AZ, so why start this off on the latest tech node that will require support and expertise from a lot of people, not only TSMC but also the equipment suppliers, and yes, there are Intel fabs and others in AZ, but none on the mot advanced nodes - it's a smart business decision by TSMC ...
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Commenting on the fact that this will be an old node by the time it gets up and running is not making a moral judgment.
 
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cmaier said:
Sure, but then let’s not pretend this is exciting news. There will be lots of other fabs making 5nm in the U.S. by then.
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Well, exciting? That’s subjective. It was posted, those not interested can scroll past, those interested in that industry or that country can participate in the discussion. Who am I to judge‽
 
Serban55 said:
only entry level devices will still use 5nm in 2024...most of Apple devices(included mac as well now) will be on 3nm and 4nm
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"Most of Apple devices" includes EarPods, Pencils, Watches, AppleTVs, HomePods, Airtags, and etc. Highly profitable high volume non-entry-level products that consume lots of chips. What makes you think that most of those will be on 3 and 4nm?
 
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cmaier said:
Commenting on the fact that this will be an old node by the time it gets up and running is not making a moral judgment.
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.13u is an "old" node, and still not obsolete ... TSMC would not spend $12B on a fab if they couldn't keep it running full. Yes, it will not be the most advanced node in 2024 but the majority of "chips" don't need the most advanced node.
 
jz0309 said:
.13u is an "old" node, and still not obsolete ... TSMC would not spend $12B on a fab if they couldn't keep it running full. Yes, it will not be the most advanced node in 2024 but the majority of "chips" don't need the most advanced node.
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When did i ever say obsolete? I just said old.
 
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cmaier said:
When did i ever say obsolete? I just said old.
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YOU didn't, I did, in the context of referring to .13u as being "old" and still not "obsolete" ...

Look, here at MR we like to talk about the latest and greatest stuff Apple makes, and clearly, for the main Apple processors (be it the Axx or Mxx) we talk about the latest and greatest node, but, and you know this, in every iPhone, Mac etc there are plenty chips that are going to be manufactured on 28/40nm, or 65nm even in 2024 - does that mean those chips are "old"? No.
When you use the term "old", people take that as "not good enough" anymore, which is far from the whole truth, yes, not good enough anymore for the latest A/Mxx but more than good enough for most other chips.

This all in the context of TSMC planning to mass produce 5nm chips in AZ in 2024 - they will have plenty customers and demand, just not for Apple's A/Mxx chips, and that is totally fine/
 
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If you think about this, this could have far-reaching benefits. Okay, the chips are being made in Arizona. But they still need to go to China for assembly. Sounds like a problem, right? Well, we're sitting on a crapload of empty containers and nobody wants to send empty ones to China. No money in that. So we fill them up with American chips. Problem solved.
 
cmaier said:
Apple’s chips aren’t manufactured in china, so how does the future ability to manufacture some chips in the US help in the event relations with china deteriorate?
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Well I figured they were in Taiwan which is in the cross hairs to be "acquired" by China. Even Japan is warning this is pending.
 
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I
WoodpeckerBaby said:
5 mm will be outdated by then
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highly doubt 5nm will be outdated by then it will be mass market in most devices. Second -- this is a manufacturing base that can also be improved to 2nm when that becomes more feasible economically and technically.

This makes a secure sourcing of processors for Apple.
 
cmaier said:
Don’t know that guy.

How about this one?

www.guru3d.com

Former AMD engineer talks about Bulldozer

X-bit Labs reports an ex-AMD engineer spoke out about some of the reasons why Bulldozer disappoints: The reason why performance of the long-awaited Bulldozer was below expectations is not only because...
www.guru3d.com www.guru3d.com
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I enjoyed reading your Bulldozer story.

Your conclusions dovetailed nicely with the benefits we achieved at the 10 person fabless semiconductor startup I was part of in the same timeframe.

While our CMOS chips (high-speed programmable digital filters, RF/IF digital down-converters and up-converters, QAM modulators/demodulators, etc) were different with much smaller dies than CPUs, they were all hand laid-out using our own library of functions. And then fabbed at ES2 and later Atmel.

Our clock rates and overall performance were much higher than our competitors, primarily Analog Devices and Harris Semiconductor who used design automation tools. And with much smaller dies (lower cost) and power dissipation. Significantly better performance, better signal processing functionality, and lower cost allowed us to snag a lot of their business and have a successful small company that was punching above our weight.
 
cmaier said:
What chips produced today are produced on many times larger processes and are “top performing?”

AMD’s chiplet design is not “many times larger process.”

And telling me to “go look” at AMD chip designs is kind of funny (google me).
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Does chip only mean CPU to you?
 
cmaier said:
5nm in 2024? So chips for old stuff.
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From the existing rumours, both AMD Zen 4 (Ryzen 6000) and Nvidia Ada Lovelace (RTX 40-series) will be using 5nm designs. Not sure to what extent that's reliable, but I wouldn't be surprised. GPUs especially have been slow at leveraging newer nodes.

The RTX 30 SUPER coming Q4 2021 / Q1 2022 is expected to still be on 7nm.
 
smetvid said:
I live in AZ and its amazing how much this state is growing. If anyone wonders how the political landscape can change so fast in AZ its because its quickly becoming the next CA and people that may be more open minded are moving here is droves just like they did in CO.

I love seeing how much AZ is growing into a major tech hub for the US. The housing market here is insane. Sucks for those who want to buy a home but its great for those of us that own homes here. Keep the growth coming!
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I live here also, actually in Chandler about 2 miles from where they’re building this facility. Chandler has built an amazing Tech Corridor. Beautiful facilities and landscape around it. Close to the freeway and two airports are only about 15 minutes away. two hours if you try the drive at 5pm 😂😂😂😂. Yes housing prices have skyrocketed. Mine has doubled in value in the last 18 months, Crazy.
 
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cmaier said:
I think it’ll be fine. I’ve been hearing this for 40 years.
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Agreed -- but Apple does plan for risk. I also think they see their processor capability as a key foundational strength that now supports their entire product portfolio. They are strengthening their relationship with TSMC and this is another step.

Tesla is doing the same thing with keeping the latest battery production capabilities out of China (focusing on iron oxide batteries for that market for cost reasons) and keeping the higher end 4680 production in the US and Europe. Tesla even got Samsung to build a battery plant in the US as supply chain back-up for Tesla's own battery plants.
 
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cmaier said:
No.

So, again, what chips produced today are on many times larger processes and are “top performing?”
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Find me a single digit nm process water level indicators, temperature sensors, ambient light sensors. Even Apple's U1 is 16nm. Who is to say these chips are not top performing in their perspective usage?
 
davidjytang said:
Find me a single digit nm process water level indicators, temperature sensors, ambient light sensors. Even Apple's U1 is 16nm. Who is to say these chips are not top performing in their perspective usage?
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“In their perspective usage.” Good job moving the goalposts.
 
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