Apple's Concern With User Privacy Reportedly Stifling Siri Development

[redscull]

It must be your voice. It works perfect, for me. German & Italian.

I speak American English with virtually no accent. I'm even a relatively thorough enunciator. I do find it does a much better job if I intentionally talk more slowly, but I mean dunce slowly. I feel like Siri should be able to understand me accurately at a normal American talking speed.

Regardless of whether it's me or Siri, additional assistant features are useless to me if she can't accurately understand what I'm saying.

 

[69Mustang]

I very much disagree. My field of study and consequentially, my degree, is in both networking and security and cyber forensics. I can tell you that Apple does NOT have anywhere near the amount of data on anyone as Google has.

What you did... it's not how you're supposed to engage in rational intelligent conversation. You fundamentally changed what @AustinIllini stated in his comment, thus changing his entire narrative. I'm not going to assume it was intentional, just pointing out what you did.

This is what he stated and it's true:

The fact is, Apple has all the same data Google has on you and you have no privacy.

Apple does have all the same data as Google. They tell you in their privacy policy they collect that data and now they ask you to opt into more data collection through iCloud Analytics. So I think we can put the question of data collection to rest. They do it.

To your point, which is entirely different from AustinIllini's, Apple does not have anywhere near the amount of data that Google has. I 100% agree, but maybe not for the same reasons as you. Simply put, Google has a far, far, far larger reach than Apple. The sheer worldwide ubiquity of Google's products and services dictates they will collect more information. Completely different from the same types of data AustinIllini was referencing.

 

[EdT]

Disable AI, then. Differential privacy is a marketing term made to make you feel better about Apple's brand of data mining.

The fact is, Apple has all the same data Google has on you and you have no privacy. Apple just pinky swears they won't sell your data to customers. Don't mistake that for privacy. They can change tack at any time and your naivete will be for naught.

I'll agree that their commitment to privacy is a company promise and could change at any time in the future.

But if it is only a facade then why let your competition gain a marketing advantage over you if you are willing to do and use the same policies that they use?

 

[macs4nw]

I'm probably in the minority here, but I don't mind giving up my metadata for a better experience.

The improvements needed to match the competition require more than the use of anonymous metadata.

 

[nt5672]

I'm probably in the minority here, but I don't mind giving up my metadata for a better experience.

But others do. The solution is simple, make SIRI data use opt-in. Make the opt-in option local to the device only and encrypted like a credit card.

 

[JRobinsonJr]

In the age where you air out your laundry on Facebook, Twitter, Snapchat, and Instagram, you are clearly in the minority.

Privacy is great but if AI is the direction everyone is going (it is), Apple HAS to keep up.

Agreed! Plus, I would prefer to give my meta-data to a company that has privacy as a guiding principle rather than one that wants to use it to sell advertising.

 

[EdT]

But others do. The solution is simple, make SIRI data use opt-in. Make the opt-in option local to the device only and encrypted like a credit card.

No. See if they can make it work without needing to gather the information. Once you ok it you can't take it back, even if you change your mind.

 

[johncarync]

I wish Siri could do more, but... Here's a link to a real-world example of a lack of security in Amazon's Echo. A private conversation was forwarded to a man's insurance agent.

North Carolina Man Says Alexa Disclosed Private Conversation

 

[campyguy]

I only use Siri when I'm driving, and even then I rarely bother. I doubt privacy concerns are what's causing this typical exchange:
"Hey Siri"
beep-beep
"Play Royal Blood"

Siri sucks at understanding what I say. Basic voice to text issues. How does that require personal data? Or even AI? I don't need an assistant. I just want flawless voice dictation.

I'm not sure which device(s) you're using, I happened upon a means to improve voice recognition purely by chance, wondering why Siri/voice recognition was so much better on my iPad Pro that sits in a dock on my desk at the office. One day I traveled to a meeting - my biz partner was driving and I forgot my recorder, which I use to record notes and deep thoughts, so I grabbed my iPhone 6 and started dictating into the Notes app. The transcription, in a car generally traveling 70 MPH and on a VZW cell connection was spot on for once. Yep, I was pretty amazed at the time…

Cutting to it, out of habit I was holding my iP6 like my voice recorder. I discovered that "Siri" and the "voice dictation" features baked into iOS better utilize the "upper back" microphone on iPhones than the microphone on the "bottom" (the one used for phone calls. I can physically obstruct the bottom mic when using iOS dictation and get 100% recognition - my car mount was obstructing the upper back mic. I now use my iPhone 6S+ or 6S far more often in my home office in this vein - and I almost always have a hassock fan on to drown out distractions; I just dictated a short memo (about 200 words) that included "Corvallis", "Eugene", "Mercedes", several proper names that are not in my Contacts, and a bunch of punctuation and paragraph returns and it was perfect even with the fan on and less than 5 feet away from me while on a VZW cell connection. I still use that VZW iP6 for dictating as well, and I've left my dictation recorder in the desk for about 18 months now - it's that good for me. For short use, I'll cup my hand over the top of the iPhone and "talk to the hand" and never directly into that mic.

I've noted that all third-party apps use the bottom mic. Tweaking the way I use iOS's dictation, it's as good as any other product IMO. Cheers, and I hope this helps!

 

[slimothy]

What you did... it's not how you're supposed to engage in rational intelligent conversation. You fundamentally changed what @AustinIllini stated in his comment, thus changing his entire narrative. I'm not going to assume it was intentional, just pointing out what you did.

This is what he stated and it's true:

Apple does have all the same data as Google. They tell you in their privacy policy they collect that data and now they ask you to opt into more data collection through iCloud Analytics. So I think we can put the question of data collection to rest. They do it.

To your point, which is entirely different from AustinIllini's, Apple does not have anywhere near the amount of data that Google has. I 100% agree, but maybe not for the same reasons as you. Simply put, Google has a far, far, far larger reach than Apple. The sheer worldwide ubiquity of Google's products and services dictates they will collect more information. Completely different from the same types of data AustinIllini was referencing.

You contradicted yourself. I stated that Apple does not have the the same data that Google has. This is 100% true. Google has profiles on just about every person who has used their service. Apple does not do this with every service. In fact, items like Siri are anonymous as to not track you. This is the opposite of what Google does.

Perhaps you aren't understanding properly.

 

[urbanslaughter1997]

I waited to hear about the Homepod before deciding whether I would buy an Alexa. This was a no-brainer for me. Siri stinks. It simply doesn't work as well as its competitors. I can buy three dots for half the price of one Homepod. I can hook those dots up to my existing speakers for sound that is better than the Homepod's. I consider myself an Apple fanboy, but I'm giving up on Siri in my home. It's just not as good as the others. Fine, you can use the information you have on me Amazon. I'm not a terrorist. I'm not afraid of how that information will be used against me.

 

[Applebot1]

I can't speak for Amazon, but Google just seems more natural. You can have more of a normal conversation when asking something instead of having to word it so you know Siri will understand. I don't think Google is as far ahead as many around here would have you think.

Yes I agree with that statement about Alexa. It's all about key words and nothing else. However Alexa imo does understand what your saying better than Siri and I use both. I just feel Alexa will get better overtime at a much faster rate. I find Alexa nice to use unlike Siri. I can't comment on Google as never used.

 

[RMo]

Sure, privacy might be holding up some things. But there's still no reason Siri shouldn't be able to create a freaking reminder when I tell her to: "Siri, add a reminder to put clothes in dryer at 8 PM tonight." "I'm sorry, you don't have any reminders for ..." (as if I was asking about an existing one rather than wanting a new one created). She used to get this right, though she also used to have problems with the time if my reminder happened to also include a word like "tomorrow" (which then overtook everything else I said). This is just one of many inadequacies I find with Siri.

 

[69Mustang]

You contradicted yourself. I stated that Apple does not have the the same data that Google has. This is 100% true. Google has profiles on just about every person who has used their service. Apple does not do this with every service. In fact, items like Siri are anonymous as to not track you. This is the opposite of what Google does.

Perhaps you aren't understanding properly.

Did I? You're right though, you did state Apple does not have the same information that Google does. This is where you and I differ in our opinion.

Google's profile of you consists of collected data like: name, mailing address, phone number, email address, contact preferences, credit card information. When you share content with familiy friends using Google products, send gift certificates and products, or invite others to participate in Google services or forums, Google may collect the information you provide about those people such as name, mailing address, email address, and phone number. They may also collect information such as occupation, language, zip code, area code, unique device identifier, referrer URL, location, and the time zone where a Google product is used. Google may collect information regarding customer activities on websites, cloud services, the Play Store, and from their other products and services. They also use cookies and pixel tags to gather information about your activity.

This isn't the entire breadth of the collected information of course, and it's not the same for every individual. Are you saying this is too much info to be collected?

 

[jonnybgood87]

Meanwhile, at Samsung...

Samsung’s smartphones can see what you do on the web and monitor emails to target ads

 

[slimothy]

Did I? Your right though, you did state Apple does not have the same information that Google does. This is where you and I differ in our opinion.

Google's profile of you consists of collected data like: name, mailing address, phone number, email address, contact preferences, credit card information. When you share content with familiy friends using Google products, send gift certificates and products, or invite others to participate in Google services or forums, Google may collect the information you provide about those people such as name, mailing address, email address, and phone number. They may also collect information such as occupation, language, zip code, area code, unique device identifier, referrer URL, location, and the time zone where a Google product is used. Google may collect information regarding customer activities on websites, cloud services, the Play Store, and from their other products and services. They also use cookies and pixel tags to gather information about your activity.

This isn't the entire breadth of the collected information of course, and it's not the same for every individual. Are you saying this is too much info to be collected?

You're* and no, I actually don't follow where you're going with this. Apple and Google have 2 different sets of data, and both are managed in completely different ways. Google has MUCH more information on you than Apple does.

 

[ssong]

I bet this will only be possible with this new chip. There is a rumor article about that, here on MR.

I'm not too sure about that. The current documentation doesn't mention any explicit hardware prerequisites for it to run and in general terms it seems that it's something that Apple has been working on / using for at least a few past iterations but now they are opening it up to developers. I'd imagine that Apple has been using it for the past year and testing it and now they are opening it up for the wider dev community.

 

[subjonas]

Then I guess Siri development is stifled.

 

[69Mustang]

You're* and no, I actually don't follow where you're going with this. Apple and Google have 2 different sets of data, and both are managed in completely different ways. Google has MUCH more information on you than Apple does.

Thanks for you're correction. Twas a typo. I was going somewhere with my quote, but you never answered the final question.

 

[ssong]

You have no idea how much accurate information can be compiled on you using the data mining technology that exists. And it's all legal and it's also for sale. Years ago I worked for a direct mail company (junk mail) and we would buy mailing lists to send our customers mail adverts sorted by income, job, age, political affiliation, health, where you live, restaurants you frequented, newspapers and magazines you subscribed to, what schools you attended, and that was back in the mid 1980's.

My wife works for an insurance company now and she says what is available, and used, is a lot more in depth and comprehensive than it was then. And with companies looking to deny people based on "pre-existing" conditions again you better hope that you or any of of your family don't have or develope a condition. If it runs in your family then they may say it was pre-existing.

And that's just one instance. Your credit and financial information is already for sale. You may be denied a loan based upon inaccurate or crossed with someone else's information and never know why you were denied. There is nothing that says that the information must be corrected if it is in error, even if you notify someone. And since it's an aggregate collection of people and companies collecting and reselling the data, there's no one place to go to fix any errors. That's today, right now. Do Search on people being denied loans or credit cards or even jobs based upon available information right now.

And if you do that search on google be aware that this information will be stored and for sale.

I mean I think there are two different types of data though. There's what I'll call static data which is all that you listed like details about me as an individual, my salary bracket, address etc. and then there's dynamic data which would be the data the phone collects with my interaction with content / device.

You're right in saying that static data is already available for open sale and it is completely legal as it's often stated in the T&C that any data collected can be used / sold / passed on to third parties to offer relevant services. You are also sadly right in saying that the lack of structured means of data mining means that people can lose out on certain things in life due to false records relating to them.

In general, with regards to static data, we as individuals should have more control over it and the data ownership should perpetually belong to us. Sadly that's something that will take a few decades to put into law.

As for dynamic data, I think it's completely fair that companies can use / sell that data to improve services or products. The only issue I have is that the focus of these companies is 'how can we get more people to use our service instead of others' which leads to the attitude of 'how can we appeal to these people better'. Which results in what I'll call the Facebook Dilemma or in more simple terms, populism. Because social validation has come to be believed as a crucial part of product marketing, we are now surrounded by things we would like and people we would like. This isn't a terrible thing, but it sure does lead to a bad habit of us as individuals to become very narrow-minded and have tunnel vision on most matters in life.

So while I think adaptive learning and ML in general is good if it's used to improve the service so that it further enriches and complements the users life. It should be used with extreme caution and ethical consideration if it's used to build an echo chamber around people. Sadly we don't have any ethical frameworks around data analytics and tbh most companies / devs don't really see an ethical issue around the analytics. Most people take great issue with the collection of data (as we are seeing in this very thread) but I think the bigger consideration needs to be made in how we analyse the data.

I've been in both the philosohical side and the development side of the issue and you can tell that there's a massive gap in understanding between the two. Which in large part is due to the modern educational structure but that's a diff debate.

 

[iReality85]

I don't have a problem when companies collect my data if it's for their own diagnostics and technological advancement (re: AI, bug fixing, etc).

I do have a problem when companies collect my data unannounced (either in suspicious ways or without me knowing), don't give me an option to opt out, or sell it to 3rd parties to make money.

This is why I (and I'm sure others) choose iPhone/iOS and make a conscience decision to stay away from Android phones and other AI assistant products. But I will give Google credit in that they are unashamedly honest about collecting your personal data, even if you're never quite sure what's being done with it.

With Apple, it's a case where they are simply too conservative with user's information and applying that information to better their own products' functionality.

Related to Siri, I really wouldn't care if Apple collected my data to enhance it. I just want that data kept at Apple. Not sold off to 3rd parties. I have a hunch that this is how most people would feel about data collection. It's really about the abuse and/or profiteering of selling user data to 3rd parties.

 

[slimothy]

Thanks for you're correction. Twas a typo. I was going somewhere with my quote, but you never answered the final question.

You're forgiven. I think Google mines too much data. I don't like that. I don't use Google. Many people choose Apple because of their concern for privacy.

 

[44267547]

This isn't surprising. Siri would be WAY ahead right now if privacy wasn't such a big deal.

That's half of it. Siri would be way ahead if it had better deciphering and dictation. That's one of the major issues with Siri as it stands now. But with the revamped Siri coming In iOS 11, hopefully some of those issues have been rectified.

 

[WatchFromAfar]

The project has also reportedly suffered from the departures of key members as a result, some of whom went to competitors.

This is more likely the reason for Siri's current performance; blaming privacy is just a distraction to mask the fact that even the great Apple can't retain key talent.

 

[69Mustang]

You're forgiven. I think Google mines too much data. I don't like that. I don't use Google. Many people choose Apple because of their concern for privacy.

Thank you. Although convoluted, the point I was trying to prove is the perception of what Apple and Google collect often has no correlation to what they actually collect. Everything I listed in that "Google profile" was cut and pasted from Apple's privacy policy regarding some of the data they collect. It is in fact, the same data that Google collects. Apple does a great job of giving examples of how they use that data. It is also used in the same fashion as Google.

Please don't think this was done this way as some sort of gotcha. It was just an easy way for me to highlight the similarity in what data is collected. If you opt into iCloud Analytics, the collected data is even more similiar. Apple says they divorce that collected data from you, but that data is collected, and it's the same data as Google's.