Apple's Craig Federighi Further Explains Why Stage Manager is Only for M1 iPads

[ratspg]

I'm fully convinced the stages of grief are at play here. There's denial. "Of course the A12X is powerful enough to run it. See that demo? That iPad running four tiny apps that use hardly any memory work on SM!." There's the bargaining phase with, "if only Apple would limit the feature to 4 apps at once or ditch the second monitor".

Yet, no one bats an eye when Apple limits features annually on their iPhones only to their latest model. At least with the iPad, they limited it to four year old hardware. I suspect the reason is in the release cycle. iOS and iPadOS are always released at the same time with the brand new iPhones, typically on the Monday four days before their new iPhones arrive. So it's expected to limit features. It's new hardware, after all. Why release hardware if there aren't any new features?

iPadOS doesn't release at the same time as iPads, so there is always time between iPad releases and new features. Because Stage Manager was released 15 months after the M1 iPads, why shouldn't it work on 2020 or 2018 iPads? If they had released the feature in March 2021 right alongside the brand new release of the M1 iPads, would the reaction have been the same? Or would people automatically accept the limitation as hardware related, just as iPhone features are every single year? I suspect Apple waited until 2022 to release the feature because 2021 was consumed by Universal Control, another difficult-to-implement feature, and they didn't have the resources to do both. Or they didn't want two headline features.

Released 15 months later. More like a beta feature in OS X from ~2006. Apple could make it work if they really wanted to. They don’t want to. Simple as that.

The beta of stage manager as it’s called today in OS X from 2006 actually worked in a better way. The app in focus had all of its available windows on the right side of the screen available for quick selection and not ducked under other windows on the left.

 

[Joe Dohn]

Do you buy iPhones every year and complain about how your older model is now obsolete? Sorry, but that is a very accurate assessment. If you don't complain about the iPhone, why are you complaining about the iPad?

Dude, stop trying to guess the lives of people you barely know. I've used my previous iPhone for 3 years, and just this year I upgraded it. If I were unhappy with my device, I would not buy another iPhone.

I already said in this thread a few times. I have a bit more empathy than to just look at my own devices.

I'm not angry at Apple because it's my device that's not working. I'm angry at Apple for the absolutely ****** way they are handling all this issue. I'm angry because OTHER USERS are not receiving a fair treatment, and because it could be me instead.

 

[TheYayAreaLiving 🎗️]

Released 15 months later. More like a beta feature in OS X from ~2006. Apple could make it work if they really wanted to. They don’t want to. Simple as that.

View attachment 2019248


View attachment 2019249

The beta of stage manager as it’s called today in OS X from 2006 actually worked in a better way. The app in focus had all of its available windows on the right side of the screen available for quick selection and not ducked under other windows on the left.

Looking for someone who can email Craig about this. Maybe he will elaborate on it more?

 

[tobybrut]

Released 15 months later. More like a beta feature in OS X from ~2006. Apple could make it work if they really wanted to. They don’t want to. Simple as that.

View attachment 2019248


View attachment 2019249

The beta of stage manager as it’s called today in OS X from 2006 actually worked in a better way. The app in focus had all of its available windows on the right side of the screen available for quick selection and not ducked under other windows on the left.

Ah yes, let's compare feature sets on tablets and desktop OS'es. Not applicable and really not the same thing.

 

[tobybrut]

Dude, stop trying to guess the lives of people you barely know. I've used my previous iPhone for 3 years, and just this year I upgraded it. If I were unhappy with my device, I would not buy another iPhone.

I already said in this thread a few times. I have a bit more empathy than to just look at my own devices.

I'm not angry at Apple because it's my device that's not working. I'm angry at Apple for the absolutely ****** way they are handling all this issue. I'm angry because OTHER USERS are not receiving a fair treatment, and because it could be me instead.

Tech marches on. If they come out with M2-only features, that's fine. It happens. Be enraged for everyone else whom you don't know. Sorry, but if you can comment on behalf of everyone, so can I. Why are you lecturing me about it if you can't abide by it yourself?

 

[ratspg]

Ah yes, let's compare feature sets on tablets and desktop OS'es. Not applicable and really not the same thing.

A MacBook from 2006 was an intel core 2 duo and had about 4gb of ram standard. So yes it is applicable.

Here’s a A12 processor versus an intel core 2 duo from 2008, not even 2006.

Apple A12 Bionic vs Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 - GadgetVersus

Comparison between Apple A12 Bionic and Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 with the specifications of the processors, the number of cores, threads, cache memory, also the performance in benchmark platforms such as Geekbench, Passmark, Cinebench or AnTuTu.

gadgetversus.com

 

[Joe Dohn]

Tech marches on. If they come out with M2-only features, that's fine. It happens. Be enraged for everyone else whom you don't know. Sorry, but if you can comment on behalf of everyone, so can I. Why are you lecturing me about it if you can't abide by it yourself?

I'm not commenting on behalf of everyone. I'm having something you don't seem to understand, empathy. I'm imagining users all who expected something better and feel betrayed, and I don't like that. I wouldn't like if that happened to me.

 

[tobybrut]

I'm not commenting on behalf of everyone. I'm having something you don't seem to understand, empathy. I'm imagining users all who expected something better and feel betrayed, and I don't like that. I wouldn't like if that happened to me.

Nope, you are assuming everyone thinks like you do. Facts show otherwise, so I am commenting to try to help people get over their outrage with actual reason. Meanwhile, with no facts to present, you fuel the outrage. You're not helping the issue while I'm trying to help people to understand the reasoning. As an engineer, I understand the reasoning and can see how they are likely telling us the truth because the known facts fit their explanation.

You're making the gigantic assumption that it's all some evil plot for a feature hardly anyone will use. If Apple really wanted to push selling iPads, they wouldn't use this feature to do it. It's a niche feature used by a very distinct minority. How is your attitude helping anyone except to make them madder?

 

[Joe Dohn]

Nope, you are assuming everyone thinks like you do. Facts show otherwise, so I am commenting to try to help people get over their outrage with actual reason.

YOU are assuming everyone thinks like you do, and that you hold the facts.
But you don't.
Users are mad because they have a LEGITIMATE reason to be mad!
And guess what, if I had a 2020 iPad Pro and I were treated that way, I would be mad too!

You're making the gigantic assumption that it's all some evil plot for a feature hardly anyone will use. If Apple really wanted to push selling iPads, they wouldn't use this feature to do it. It's a niche feature used by a very distinct minority. How is your attitude helping anyone except to make them madder?

You are trying to "read" other user's minds without knowing them.
I never said it was an evil plot. But I definitely think Apple is not caring about their older users, and is only thinking short term on their bottom line.

I'm not the only person mad at Apple here, and I'm definitely not the last!

Instead of sympathizing with people, you're essentially saying they're only good enough for Apple if they hold the latest and greatest device. No wonder people are mad about it, and you're just adding fuel to the fire by not listening to people!

 

[tobybrut]

A MacBook from 2006 was an intel core 2 duo and had about 4gb of ram standard. So yes it is applicable.

Here’s a A12 processor versus an intel core 2 duo from 2008, not even 2006.

Apple A12 Bionic vs Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 - GadgetVersus

Comparison between Apple A12 Bionic and Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 with the specifications of the processors, the number of cores, threads, cache memory, also the performance in benchmark platforms such as Geekbench, Passmark, Cinebench or AnTuTu.

gadgetversus.com

You are comparing apples and oranges. It was another time with far less resource demands on a feature that exists on a totally different software and hardware environment. Just because you can write some app that worked 15 years ago on a different platform doesn't mean it'll work on a platform 15 years later on an operating system that is completely different.

I've explained the reasoning why it won't work. If you refuse to believe it, then I can't help you. I even did the math to show where they came up with the minimum requirements. If Apple had included circuitry to run virtual memory on their 2018 and 2020 iPads, you'd have a case as to why SM isn't being allowed to run due to greed. But since they didn't, you're simply refusing to accept the explanation.

Just try to run 8 apps simultaneously on that 2006 computer where each app allocates 16GB of RAM to itself and see how far it gets. It wouldn't run, period. Different times, different platform. Even with virtual memory, it wouldn't even load the first app, let alone 8.

 

[purfledspruce]

Software will expand to fill any available hardware capacity. That's a known fact. This has nothing to do with Stage Manager. Engineers and marketing will always expand the specs to fill up that hardware. Modern OS'es do a tremendous amount of work behind the scenes, stuff they were totally incapable of 30 years ago.
<snip>

This is how he process works. Marketing does an analysis for what the customer needs. They turn those into requirements. Those requirements are sent to engineering, which creates design specs for how it's going to work and what resources are needed. There are many levels of specs from a system spec (how it's supposed to work in a big context) down to a low-level design document (how it's implemented down to exact methods used to do something) along with a schedule and staffing plans. The high level system docs go to marketing, which says if it's sufficient and meets their requirements. If not, there is negotiating between engineering and marketing for available resources, money to do it, amount of staff needed, and any compromises on what can be done in a certain amount of time. Both sides sign off and the engineers do their work. Sometimes, the answer from engineering is that something isn't possible within a certain time frame or with the hardware specified or with the manpower given, so negotiations happen there, too. Basically marketing asks for the moon while engineers bring them back down to earth. What we end up with is a compromise between the earth and the moon.

Marketing was clearly wrong here. Apple’s customers are very upset and have been complaining about this for days. It was clearly a misstep, regardless of whether or not the customers are justified.

I was being flippant, and did not mean to insult you - in fact, it was meant to be a compliment, I was saying that if you were given different specs to code to that your team would undoubtedly be successful in doing so. Kinda trying to “turn your statement around” to use it to make my point - if you make the constraints clear, then the software will still fit within the constraints. It might not be as nice or as capable, mind you. But it would definitely be possible.

I have done coding for large and complex projects with multiple team members. And, in fact, I have been an engineer for well over 20 years, trained by one of the best institutions in the world. Of course, you didn’t know that (and still don’t really know if it’s true, I suppose,) but you and I both know that Apple made choices here. I’m not REALLY concerned about what was available 30 years ago, though of course to make that comparison makes Apple look rhetorically bad, which was the point. I am comparing to modern hardware, multiple windows on a tablet have been available on the Note series since at least 2015, and probably earlier.

One of the reasons that the iPad isn’t a good computer replacement is that it can’t do windows of various sizes. I was really looking forward to my $1400 setup (I bought most of the stuff on sale) finally working as my only computer. I have some health data that I’d like to analyze, and it’s just … awkward to get it over into Numbers. It can be done, but it’s annoying enough that I haven’t bothered. This feature, even if it was slow, would have probably been sufficient to get me off my ass. Ah, well.

Anyway, best of luck to you. I’m sure you’re right. I just want it to be different, and useful to me. But I’m left out in the cold by Apple once again.

 

[tobybrut]

YOU are assuming everyone thinks like you do, and that you hold the facts.
But you don't.
Users are mad because they have a LEGITIMATE reason to be mad!
And guess what, if I had a 2020 iPad Pro and I were treated that way, I would be mad too!



You are trying to "read" other user's minds without knowing them.
I never said it was an evil plot. But I definitely think Apple is not caring about their older users, and is only thinking short term on their bottom line.

I'm not the only person mad at Apple here, and I'm definitely not the last!

Instead of sympathizing with people, you're essentially saying they're only good enough for Apple if they hold the latest and greatest device. No wonder people are mad about it, and you're just adding fuel to the fire by not listening to people!

Ah, you are seriously twisting things. Never did I say anyone wasn't worthy, nor did I say everyone thinks like me. If they did, I wouldn't have to post anything. They'd already know. I'm trying to change people's minds. What are you doing besides fueling anger?

They gave a perfectly good reason and you won't accept it. You won't even consider that it might be true, because of feelings. I'm not going to argue with you anymore since any further discussion with you is just shouting into the void. Debating facts versus feelings is pointless. If you had any facts, I'd consider continuing.

I'm at least trying to put forth facts as they are known. Craig F put forth an explanation and I tried to explain it from an engineer's point of view. No one can know all the facts unless they work there, but what they are saying sure fits what we do know. Some people have accepted it and have acknowledged I have a decent case. What are your facts? Don't bother. I already know you don't have any.

 

[tobybrut]

Marketing was clearly wrong here. Apple’s customers are very upset and have been complaining about this for days. It was clearly a misstep, regardless of whether or not the customers are justified.

I was being flippant, and did not mean to insult you - in fact, it was meant to be a compliment, I was saying that if you were given different specs to code to that your team would undoubtedly be successful in doing so. Kinda trying to “turn your statement around” to use it to make my point - if you make the constraints clear, then the software will still fit within the constraints. It might not be as nice or as capable, mind you. But it would definitely be possible.

I have done coding for large and complex projects with multiple team members. And, in fact, I have been an engineer for well over 20 years, trained by one of the best institutions in the world. Of course, you didn’t know that (and still don’t really know if it’s true, I suppose,) but you and I both know that Apple made choices here. I’m not REALLY concerned about what was available 30 years ago, though of course to make that comparison makes Apple look rhetorically bad, which was the point. I am comparing to modern hardware, multiple windows on a tablet have been available on the Note series since at least 2015, and probably earlier.

One of the reasons that the iPad isn’t a good computer replacement is that it can’t do windows of various sizes. I was really looking forward to my $1400 setup (I bought most of the stuff on sale) finally working as my only computer. I have some health data that I’d like to analyze, and it’s just … awkward to get it over into Numbers. It can be done, but it’s annoying enough that I haven’t bothered. This feature, even if it was slow, would have probably been sufficient to get me off my ass. Ah, well.

Anyway, best of luck to you. I’m sure you’re right. I just want it to be different, and useful to me. But I’m left out in the cold by Apple once again.

I always take it on faith that what people tell me is true about themselves. Good luck to you, too. I didn't take it as an insult, btw, but figured it was just a joke. It's hard to tell when it comes to print.

 

[Joe Dohn]

Ah, you are seriously twisting things. Never did I say anyone wasn't worthy, nor did I say everyone thinks like me. If they did, I wouldn't have to post anything. They'd already know. I'm trying to change people's minds. What are you doing besides fueling anger?

And why "should" people's minds be changed? They have a right to be angry!
Why would you have a "mission" to change their minds?

They gave a perfectly good reason and you won't accept it. You won't even consider that it might be true, because of feelings. I'm not going to argue with you anymore since any further discussion with you is just shouting into the void. Debating facts versus feelings is pointless. If you had any facts, I'd consider continuing.

I'm at least trying to put forth facts as they are known. Craig F put forth an explanation and I tried to explain it from an engineer's point of view. No one can know all the facts unless they work there, but what they are saying sure fits what we do know. Some people have accepted it and have acknowledged I have a decent case. What are your facts? Don't bother. I already know you don't have any.

You don't have facts, man. You have Apple's press release through Apple and a few YouTubers.
Or do you have PAPERS proving that the iPad Pro running Stage Manager isn't possible?
You shouldn't ever trust a company (any company) just because they say so.

Do you have papers?

 

[CthuluLemon]

Do you buy iPhones? Every year, there are features that are limited only to the latest model. Apple limits one or more features to their high end iPhones every year, but still provide tons of new features in OS updates for years to come. There's no difference with iPads. Why no complaints about iPhones for doing exactly the same thing? I have yet to see a thread with so many comments about people complaining Apple is gimping their iPhones.

Oh, but iPhones are limited by hardware, you say! But so is Stage Manager. It's limited by hardware. No difference. Why are so many up in arms over Stage Manager, but not up in arms over 120Hz that went only on LTPO iPhones, or Cinematic video because of a faster neural engine, or ProRes video because only the A15 contained a ProRes encoder/decoder? This one iPad feature is limited by needing an M1. It's all the same thing.

Your ignoring a huge caveat with past instances: in the past features were limited by new hardware components, not evolutionary component upgrades within 2 years of each other. Hardware limitations aren't ridiculous after a certain number of years, but they are considering how not so long ago apple was selling the Pre-M1 iPad Pros. Obviously, an original iPad wasn't going to gain a Retina display just through a software download, the same way an Apple Watch 5 didn't suddenly gain a pulse oximeter once the Series 6 came out. The original iPhone didn't have a 3G modem, so obviously it wasn't going to gain 3G capabilities when the iPhone 3G came out. This is Apple choosing to limit features despite no clear hardware limitations, at least not to the extant to remove the feature entirely. If you purchased an iPhone, iPad or Mac, your were typically guaranteed 3+ years of feature upgrades, even if those features had limited capability. Evolutionary upgrades to the processor aren't an excuse, especially considering iPads have been on Apple Silicon for some time now, so it's not comparable to the intel/Apple Silicon Mac transition. If apple only felt it was worth the investment to develop Stage Manager for the M1, fine, that's their right, plenty of companies do just fine admitting they didn't do something because it wasn't cost effective. People aren't buying the half-baked excuse they've cooked up. If Apple can't get a new feature to work at all with hardware less than 2 years from state-of-the-art, than it's because they didn't even try. Pretending otherwise is just assuming your customers won't think, ie, arrogance.

Sometimes disagreements are just that, disagreements, not stages of grief or any other hyperbolic characterization.

Honestly, I'm predicting a work-around soon. Anytime Apple has to clarify this much in this short of a timeframe, it usually means they underestimated the backlash. Apple PR doesn't seem to know how to cope if enough people don't buy their rationale right out of the gate. It's the CSAM debacle all over again, just luckily with lower stakes all around. I wonder how they'll spin their initial claims of hardware incompatibility once they cave and announce the "fix."

 

[Le0M]

Lmao people are still buying Mac Pros and I would be shocked if Apple doesn’t kick support within the next two years for any non Apple Silicon device and those are upwards of $50,000 so you really don’t get to complain.

The fact that other people might suffer more, doesn't mean I don't need to express myself.

 

[Loismustdie1]

And you keep with your condescending attitude.
Is anyone really WANTING to dictate Apple's development pace?
No, we don't! We want transparent, fair behavior.

And if Apple cannot meet that transparent, fair behavior, ultimately we will move to more transparent companies.
Of course no company is perfect, but if Apple is not willing to, they will stay behind.
They are already playing a dangerous game focusing only on content creation, which is the only categories their hardware truly excels at currently.

If we, unhappy users, are not treated well, what happens when Apple loses their edge?
Don't expect brand loyalty from users being treated condescendingly.

Just trade in your Apple devices for a brand you feel treats you better. Your whining at this point is insufferable.

 

[Shasterball]

I don’t think that’s what they are trying to do. They very clearly have to walk a line of here’s why we can’t do X and here’s why Y can. You can easily see in these expanded comments not directly but very clearly hinting toward “the future“ and a “baseline“ for these enhanced desktop class capabilities. I mean it doesn’t take a genius from that alone to see where their mind is with where they are intending to take the iPads with Apple Silicon.

There is intention and there is messaging. The messaging part is hard for him... Remember the child photo issue? SMH.

 

[Joe Dohn]

Just trade in your Apple devices for a brand you feel treats you better. Your whining at this point is insufferable.

To be honest, the problem here is not so much Apple, but the disastrous PR some users here are attempting to do.
And it IS disastrous.
If I were a competitor and I wanted to convince an Apple fan to change their mind, I wouldn't argue on how bad Apple is, or anti-Apple websites. I would show how the PR treats users in forums and social media when users dare disagree.

 

[Loismustdie1]

To be honest, the problem here is not so much Apple, but the disastrous PR some users here are attempting to do.
And it IS disastrous.
If I were a competitor and I wanted to convince an Apple fan to change their mind, I wouldn't argue on how bad Apple is, or anti-Apple websites. I would show how the PR treats users in forums and social media when users dare disagree.

None of that changes my original point. If you don’t like the direction of the platform, you are free to leave at any time.

 

[Joe Dohn]

None of that changes my original point. If you don’t like the direction of the platform, you are free to leave at any time.

Dude, stop. You're not doing Apple any favors telling it's their way or the highway.
Of course I'm free to leave at any time. I'm not having my hands chained to a desk.
But when you talk like that, you sound downright elitist / nasty.
You're not Apple's CEO, and you're actually creating the opposite effect.
I entered this discussion only slightly annoyed, and after I started arguing with you guys, I felt so frustrated I
honestly feel like selling all my Apple devices, because I honestly feel that I'm just good if I'm having the latest hardware.

And like I said, I do have the most current hardware. Imagine how users that don't are feeling?
Eventually, they will have to upgrade. If I were them, would I upgrade to Apple?

I used to like Linux, and I used to always speak out when I realized that their desktop was a mess.
Eventually, I got tired and just left, as many users did.

 

[Loismustdie1]

Dude, stop. You're not doing Apple any favors telling it's their way or the highway.
Of course I'm free to leave at any time. I'm not having my hands chained to a desk.
But when you talk like that, you sound downright elitist / nasty.
You're not Apple's CEO, and you're actually creating the opposite effect.
I entered this discussion only slightly annoyed, and after I started arguing with you guys, I felt so frustrated I
honestly feel like selling all my Apple devices, because I honestly feel that I'm just good if I'm having the latest hardware.

And like I said, I do have the most current hardware. Imagine how users that don't are feeling?
Eventually, they will have to upgrade. If I were them, would I upgrade to Apple?

I used to like Linux, and I used to always speak out when I realized that their desktop was a mess.
Eventually, I got tired and just left, as many users did.

The pain you must be in 🙄

 

[tigajr]

iPad Air 5 base model lacks memory swap despite being a requirement for Stage Manager

64GB iPad Air 5 lacks memory swap despite Stage Manager 9to5Mac

With iPadOS 16, Apple announced multiple new features that are exclusive to iPads based on the M1 chip, such as...

9to5mac.com

…
"But here’s the thing. As noted by developer Steve Troughton-Smith on Twitter, the base model of the iPad Air 5 is not compatible with virtual memory swap. That’s probably because the 64GB of internal storage is not enough for memory swapping. As Apple quietly suggests on its website, memory swapping on the iPad requires at least 128GB of storage in addition to M1.

This is totally understandable, but then comes the question: Why does Apple keep saying that virtual memory swap is a requirement for Stage Manager when the 64GB iPad Air 5, which supports Stage Manager, clearly has no virtual memory swap?"

 

[Lcohen34]

Nope, you are assuming everyone thinks like you do. Facts show otherwise, so I am commenting to try to help people get over their outrage with actual reason. Meanwhile, with no facts to present, you fuel the outrage. You're not helping the issue while I'm trying to help people to understand the reasoning. As an engineer, I understand the reasoning and can see how they are likely telling us the truth because the known facts fit their explanation.

You're making the gigantic assumption that it's all some evil plot for a feature hardly anyone will use. If Apple really wanted to push selling iPads, they wouldn't use this feature to do it. It's a niche feature used by a very distinct minority. How is your attitude helping anyone except to make them madder?

Nope. I think just like him.

What facts are you referring to?

 

[Flight Plan]

Well, Apple can let them run 2 apps. That still qualifies as multitasking

Even 1.1 apps is more than one. Multitasking!

I wonder if prices will depreciate for Non-M1 iPad's since it does not support the Stage Manager.

I doubt it. I've kept my old 12.9" iPad Pro, even after getting the M1 version. Gonna make em both work in my music studio!

Most iPad users won’t know because they typically aren’t power users and all these “features” are buried in unnecessary literature. iPad values in general plummet on the used/refurbished market especially after Apple’s latest decrease in trade in value. iPads have the worst Apple trade in values after the Watch but in this case they won’t depreciate because if you want that feature odds are good you’re gonna know what the requirement is.

You might be right about the power users and literature documentation comment. I'm pretty much still using my iPad as a stone tablet, mostly posting smoke signals here or making cave drawings of my last big mammoth hunt.

This comment section reminds me of a comedy bit by Louis C.K. where he's talking about early WiFi on airplanes.

Oh my God, that's funny. "You're sitting in a chair! In the sky!"

Case closed. I don’t actually have a case at hand to close, but case closed!

I closed one here and I did it twice so you're good.