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Apple's Digital Video Production Future

We Do Need Hardware Acceleration

A lack of true realtime output, at least for simple transitions, lower third graphics, etc. without rendering is holding back FCP as a tool for broadcast environments and NAB is first and foremost a broadcasters show.

Hardware acceleration or co-processing would mitigate the problem of our slower G4 processors. Even faster PCs and expensive proprietary systems (Media Composer, Media 100) rely on additional hardware cards to provide true realtime output, and getting that output through firewire with all the decompression, processing and recompression required is not likely strictly through software.

I have absolutely no information to go on other than hunches, but since this will be a strategic announcement, perhaps we'll begin seeing the integration of all of Apple's acquired technologies (Shake, Logic, Spruce, Pismo) into a more integrated package aimed at competing with Avid and Media 100 at the professional level (at lower cost) and with Adobe (with better performance and user experience).

FCP4 might be the start of this, but look for most of the advancements to be talked about, but not necessarily demonstrated or made available for purchase for some time.
 
Re: We Do Need Hardware Acceleration

Originally posted by beerstine
A lack of true realtime output, at least for simple transitions, lower third graphics, etc. without rendering is holding back FCP as a tool for broadcast environments and NAB is first and foremost a broadcasters show.

Hardware acceleration or co-processing would mitigate the problem of our slower G4 processors. Even faster PCs and expensive proprietary systems (Media Composer, Media 100) rely on additional hardware cards to provide true realtime output, and getting that output through firewire with all the decompression, processing and recompression required is not likely strictly through software.

I have absolutely no information to go on other than hunches, but since this will be a strategic announcement, perhaps we'll begin seeing the integration of all of Apple's acquired technologies (Shake, Logic, Spruce, Pismo) into a more integrated package aimed at competing with Avid and Media 100 at the professional level (at lower cost) and with Adobe (with better performance and user experience).

FCP4 might be the start of this, but look for most of the advancements to be talked about, but not necessarily demonstrated or made available for purchase for some time.
Click to expand...

That is what I'm talking about.

A render engine that no matter what Apple cpu or type you use you will see the same performance on apps with render concerns.

You could jack your power book in with the final unrendered cut and fly at faster than dual processor speed because all the rendering is outside the box.

I hate to say it but if Apple doesn't hurry the hell up and make FCP vaible to the professional they will loose out. It is a great software product but time is money and time is more valuable than the ideal of staying with a better software .

I'm am really starting to think that I'm going to have to jump ship and move back to AVID for this next new editing station and also move to the PC platform.

I would like to stay a little behind the hardware curve but not light years behind. The current Apple line of hardware doesn't impress me

Ideally how about just porting the damn OSX over to a pc box, hardware that is cheaper faster and processors continually being updated.

I really don't like XP so far but I might just have to get used to it.
 
real time

I have to agree with the most people in hoping that apple addresses the realtime issue. While boards like the Voodoo RT exist, (albiet most of the transitions nobody uses) it would be nice to offer some sort of bundle that occupies the middle ground between no hardware FCP and systems like M100 and Avid MC. There are a plethora of add in cards on the PC side and I feel that this is the one hurdle that Apple needs to overcome if they intend FCP to be used as an online solution.

The revival of Tremor (RT Shake with hardware) by using the same accelerated add in cards as FCP 4 would be an end all solution. I have no idea if this is possible, but Imagine one box to do all your compositing and online editing... All in Real Time...
Not only would this damage Avid's position, but Discreet's as well.

We can all hope...right?
 
I hate to say it but if Apple doesn't hurry the hell up and make FCP vaible to the professional they will loose out. It is a great software product but time is money and time is more valuable than the ideal of staying with a better software .
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This is what someone says when they either don't work in a Pro environment or don't know someone who does. Workflow is the key here not whizzbang features. Professional Designers and Videographers stay with what works. To switch platforms would require the ability to increase your output at a Minimum probably 200%. PC's can't and don't offer that. FCP is growing like you wouldn't believe.

I'm am really starting to think that I'm going to have to jump ship and move back to AVID for this next new editing station and also move to the PC platform.
Click to expand...

And I'm beginning to think you don't do video at all.

Please list for us where Apple is faltering in Digital Video? You comments on Hardware are pure BS. When a P4 3Ghz can only beat a G4 running at less than half it's frequency can be consider light years ahead I have to question your knowledge of hardware.
 
i think an apple-branded piggyback option for FCP is a good idea. the 3rd party market for mid-range, PCI-driven acceleration is almost non-existant in OSX. The cheapest OSX RT option i've seen is cinewave which is, what, $6000.00? If apple could use some of those old cube enclosures, xserve-like architecture, add in acquired software (shake, cinetools), they'd have a competitor to the media 100 with apple flair. throw xserve/xraid in, and apple enthusiasts would have the option of an apple branded render farm. Put a 970 in those machines, and people like zuffen may not have to jump ship.
 
Originally posted by nuckinfutz
This is what someone says when they either don't work in a Pro environment or don't know someone who does. Workflow is the key here not whizzbang features. Professional Designers and Videographers stay with what works. To switch platforms would require the ability to increase your output at a Minimum probably 200%. PC's can't and don't offer that. FCP is growing like you wouldn't believe.



And I'm beginning to think you don't do video at all.

Please list for us where Apple is faltering in Digital Video? You comments on Hardware are pure BS. When a P4 3Ghz can only beat a G4 running at less than half it's frequency can be consider light years ahead I have to question your knowledge of hardware.
Click to expand...

Define PRO?

Been doing this business for 15 years. And I've seen systems come and go. I can show some of my editing product on the web if you like.

Did I say whizz bang features anywhere, I'm talking getting the job done on deadline. I'm talking about not having to walk away for twenty minutes to render a clip. I'm talking about not having to dump part of project onto tape because you don't have disk space to do the entire project, I'm talking about showing a client two different effects in RT without having to tell them; lets go get some coffee while this renders.

I'm not talking speed I'm talking time, no BS myth about megahertz.

What do you run ? And have you been on multiple platforms and mutiple softwares to be able to compare? If you have, I really would like to know.

Have you run Avid express DV and FCP side by side on a mac?

Have you run Avid DV express on a PC?

Have you ever used the higher end Avid products? Media Composer or Symphony?

Have you used the Pinnacle standalone NLE.

Have you been on a Media 100?

Have you been on a FAST?

Have you seen a DPSvelocity system in use?

Have you edited with Primiere?

Have you edited with a Toaster system?

Do you use a hardware DVE or software?

Do you do news editing, sports, educational, or long format editing?

If you recommend a system to a novice on budget what do you promise them? Will it be rock solid? WIll it be a sound investment? Will it be easy to learn and upgrade.

Professional editors use what is available and what ever is affordable. You use whatever tool you can to get the job done and get paid.

FCP may be growing on the low end consumer side and the Professional editor community (the ones who don't change!) are taking a serious look at new kid on the block, but it isn't how you dazzle them, it is how you keep them coming back.

And how long has Apple been trailing in speed and hardware improvements? A year ? A year in half? By the time I buy a new tower from Apple how long does it take to be outclassed by the PC world. Bragging rights win clients, deadlines keep clients.

Times are strange with the Apple processor issues and the appearance of new speedier chips on the PC side (seems like every month). The move from one OS to another and industry acceptance.

You can't deny when you say you have an AVID system that industry people aren't impressed. When you say FCP, people ask, "I hear it good but does it really work?"

I'm just venting and fretting about where to dump my ten to twenty grand!

I have to make my equipment work for me, and this time around I'm spending my money not my employers. And even if I was recommending a system, the sure winner is always recommending an Avid. How can you loose?

Gambling on FCP is relying on Apple hardware and I'm not too sure where they are going and if they are going to be a solid and long term player.

This is a forum for information, go ahead and make your claim as why you feel FCP and Apple is the choice.

Your comments are personal and offending.
 
Apple slipping on video editing

Apple took a great blow to it's digital video editing when Digital Producer Magazine slammed them (as reported by MacRummors) in their Adobe product comparison.

Apple needed to get the attention of video editors so they can save some face and convince them that the Macs can handle all features of editing better than the PCs.
 
Oh one last thing.

I'm not saying I know everything or have seen everything, I come here to learn.

I find this site to be refreshing and insiteful, and somewhat reassuring in the support of Apple.

Even if I do make a switch there will always be a Mac in my house.

I find my mac more than fully capable of serving my everyday needs and it will always be my personal machine for email and surfing, etc.
 
Some how I think you are barking up the wrong tree here. If you want hardware acceleration you need to be barking at the manufacturers of those boards, not at Apple.

Anyway, if you do a lot of vertical editing then you are probably going to be frustered inside FCP and should use a different program. As an editor FCP does what it does very well especially when you look at the price. I know many people and post houses that are replacing all of their off line Avids w/FCP. Many of those Avids being replaced are probably 4 or 5 years old now and people have stuck w/them 'cause, in my experience, editors would rather have inferior hardware than inferior software if forced to pick between the two.


Lethal
 
Originally posted by LethalWolfe
Some how I think you are barking up the wrong tree here. If you want hardware acceleration you need to be barking at the manufacturers of those boards, not at Apple.

Anyway, if you do a lot of vertical editing then you are probably going to be frustered inside FCP and should use a different program. As an editor FCP does what it does very well especially when you look at the price. I know many people and post houses that are replacing all of their off line Avids w/FCP. Many of those Avids being replaced are probably 4 or 5 years old now and people have stuck w/them 'cause, in my experience, editors would rather have inferior hardware than inferior software if forced to pick between the two.


Lethal
Click to expand...

But do you think after the 3 or 4 year lifespan of the FCP purchase, the next purchase will still be FCP?

And is the FCP lifespan on this initial purchase going to last as long as the Avid purchase did?

Avid is expensive in comparison.

See where I've been almost all the editors (who are mac fans)want to jump ship to FCP, they don't want to leave Avid necessarily but they are pumped up by all the press FCP has been getting. Plus it is cheaper.

We have had alot of support problems with Avid suppliers. Of course that is using Avid drives and avid hardware. We had to finally take the Media composer that had served us for 5 years out of service because the scsi card went south and that was after loosing two harddrives. Hard to find parts or service for an 8600.

But before we lost the Media Composer.

We bought into the first run of FCP 1.0 with a Pro-Max system on a G3, it was pretty quirky and slower than we liked. It was a trail run system, main purpose was PS and AE.

Knowing the Media Composer was reaching its lifespan and before it died we bought into Express DV on a local built PC system. It was very flacky. But a former employee running his Symphony said he had about the same issues running on his NT machine.

So we weren't sure where to go but we bought a swap over license for the ExpressDV and bought a dual G4 and it works like a champ so far. It left just as it was coming in so I didn't get to run it hard.

I'm at a new job and the Avid DV 3.5 here isn't even being used by the current guy editing, he brought in a bootleg copy of discreet smoke because that is what he is used to editing with at his other job.

I was given a new Pro-Max single processor G4 and FCP 3.0 and after a bad first impression I rebuilt the machine. It runs ok, not too fast, I have three employees who are fighting over it doing projects.

That is my experience in the last couple of years.
 
Zuffen

Your comments are personal and offending.
Click to expand...

My sincerest apologies. I meant no offense. Guess I got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. You Video knowledge is vastly superior to mine. I wanted to see how much knowlege you had. I'm sorry that I "goaded" you with provocation. Let's hope NAB allows Apple to highlight it's newest offerings. I know users have waited a long time for this. I expect a well thought out strategy. Again thanks.
 
No problem.

I sometimes don't get the meaning to my thoughts correctly represented. I have non-linear mind and things don't quite make sense till I render.

I don't think pc are light years ahead I just don't want to be light years behind.

I have a G3 400 at home and it still does all I need it to except for video, I'm running FCP 2.0. Well it does video but patience is a must.

RT effects don't help on a G3.

I wish I could go to NAB this year. Next year a friend and I are thinking about going (he got jury dutied this year).

You know actually you really have to have both platforms to get real in depth. A friend is doing Maya work on his PC and has a ton of software i can train my self on. So I've been leaning towards the pc to have that curve and when Apple make the next hardware leap. Maybe I'll buy into it.

Geez my G3 system cost me 3600 new and it was nearly the top of the line , and that was 4 years ago. The trouble is buying into the high end is still 3600. Give or take a little. At least I don't have to buy software if I stay mac.

Heck, it all makes me want to shrug my shoulders and go take a nap.
 
Zuffen,
Yeah I used FCP 2.0 for a bit(not mine) and I do admit. The jump from FCP 2.0 to 3.0 was not major.

In my eyes Apple hasn't had just a year to work on the new FCP 4 they've had almost 2. The quasi RT features and Offline editing were nice. The Color Correction was nice(probably should have been in there from day 1). And other functions but it surely wasn't major for most users.

For FCP4 I'm expecting MAJOR. Better compositing, much better RT functionality, MUCH better Audio, better Media Management. There are plenty of things to improve. Apple has to show us the gold. Are they serious about being players in this arena? We're going to find out.

Just two weeks away 🙂
 
FCP Wish List

I hope there are significant additions for the existing user base beyond the rumored 24P and Firewire 800 support which most users won't be able to take advantage of right away. Adding additional formats is nice for the future, but doesn't do much for those of us already committed to current DV formats.

On my wish list (other than a hardware rendering solution or 10Ghz processors...)

Improved audio editing through a revamped audio tool in FCP based on Logic's technology or ability to export timelines to a bundled version of Logic Audio focused on the audio needs of video editors. Audio is by far the weakest feature of FCP.

Some form of multicamera switching, either for live production environments (imagine switching a show off a Powerbook and saving to Firewire drives) or a multi-window monitoring scheme that would allow you to punch different cameras into a timeline in post.

Direct from the timeline MPEG-2 encoding with chapter markers for iDVD and DVDSP.

Improved offline codecs

I'm not big into compositing, but for those who are, some basic integration of Shake's technologies into FCP's compositing tools.

None of these will probably happen, it's just what I want to happen.

Anybody else got some FCP fantasies...
 
How About decent Applescript support?

Integrate Basic DVD Burning for quick Comp jobs to a Superdive

How about a Hardware Controller. Nothing too large but something with good transport and Audio controls.

Better Titling(should be coming).

Again if Audio doesn't go from turd to treasure I'll be stunned. Apple paid like 30 Million for Logic. I want to see good Audio tech everywhere.
 
Avid, Cards, Higher Price & OS defectors

The arguments about Avid vs FCP on this thread reminded me of another feature where Apple needs to do some work: rendering speed. From what I have read and heard on it, on the same system Avid DV Xpress will render its effects much faster than FCP. Granted Avid has a lot more experience in non-linear video and their software came out after FCP 3 but if Apple wants FCP to be taken seriously it has to re-work the rendering engine for version 4.

Speaking of rendering, for uncompressed video there are a lot of good options for OS X, some at the same price as a real-time DV card from 2 years ago. DV and Offline RT rendering can be handled by the processors and a DV bridge at better than real-time speed and I do not understand why there is so much demand for cards on this thread. I may be wrong about this point but don't most systems with real-time cards use the card just for playback and capture anyway? The processors still have to do the final rendering, right?

Final Cut Express seems to have taken over the DV editing function of FCP. I think the next version of Final Cut Pro will emphasize the Offline/Online workflow and it would not be out of the question for the price to be increased. Studios everywhere would pay for whatever solution works best so it would sell just as well there and anyone who wants to edit DV can save money by purchasing the software's little brother.

As for people migrating to Windows because they believe MHz will save them time, good luck to them. Whatever time they may save rendering page peels will surely be lost and doubled when they have to reinstall their OS on a weekly basis. I am generalizing, I know, but on a Mac you do not need an IT department to fix your computer when things go wrong; the user can sort these problems out himself.
 
Re: FCP Wish List

Here's a quick shot of where I'm coming from:
Linear editing (3 decks and a controller). Fun, fun, fun. 😉

Avid Xpress and MC running on Mac 9600 machines. No real complaints besides long ass render times on "non-ice" FXs.

Avid XpressDV v1.0 (turn key PC running NT 4) and it was flaky, but itw as v1.0 software and on a PC (I blame the PC more than the software). IMO the biggest detractor of XDV is the fact that it's DV only.

Premiere on a home built rig. She ran like a charm but OMG do I hate Premiere's UI. I fought with, er, I mean cut with Premiere for a year.

FCP 3 (played around w/1 and 2 but never really used them) on my current G4 (dual gig QS). I've been using FCP 3 for about a year now and have no big complaints.

Vegas Video 4 (demo version installed a few nights ago, still playing)

Almost all of the stuff I've cut has been ENG, documentary, or feature in style w/little to no vertical editing so I don't hit the big render hurrdles that it seems zuffen and others do. Although, one time I was doing a short video for internal company consumption (it had much more vertical editing than usual) and about 1/3 thru the project I couldn't stand how slow the Avid at work was running (9600 w/ice) so I dumped everything to DVCAM took it home and did on my FCP rig.

zuffen,
Assuming nothing drastic happens I can't see people switching away from FCP in 3-4 years. I've got friends who cut trailers out in LA and they started switching to FCP 3 early last year and, AFAIK, they haven't looked back (replacing Avid MCs used for off line work).

FCP is far from the end all, be all of editing but you get a lot of bang for your buck.

Originally posted by beerstine
I hope there are significant additions for the existing user base beyond the rumored 24P and Firewire 800 support which most users won't be able to take advantage of right away. Adding additional formats is nice for the future, but doesn't do much for those of us already committed to current DV formats.
Click to expand...


I'm sure there are a lot of people that shoot film and/or 24p HD and would like to see native 24p editin in FCP. Granted there is currently the Cinema Tools "add-on" but I think we're at a point now where FCP could use native 24p. It's easier to get people hooked early than it is to convince them to switch later.

On top of what others, and myself, have already "wished" for I'm hopping for improved stability. Not that FCP 3 is unstable, but it could be more solid than it is.

Also, what about tiered FCP family? You have FCE at the lowest end. Then FCP in the middle and an FC version (Final Cut eXtreme? 😀) that has tight Shake and/or Logic integration at the high end?

Even though there are a lot of improvements that could be made to FCP I hope it doens't turn into a glorified version of Premiere. I.E. many people agree that Premiere suffers from the "jack of all trades master of none" problem and I hope Apple is smart enough to keep FCP from a similar fate. IMO FCP needs to be an editing program first, a compositing program second, and en audio editor thrid. Heck, honestly I'd rather see FCP have better integration with FX/compositing and audio editing programs rather than Apple attempt to turn FCP into a better compositing and audio editing application.

EDIT: Also, the next time someone says, or infers, that PCs are a superior editing platform simply because they have shorter render times I'm going to scream. Speed is good, but software is better. I don't know 'bout ya'll but I'd much rather be on an aging Mac running Avid Xpress than on a brand new PC running Premiere.


Lethal
 
Audio more important than compositing

I disagree with the last post that audio in FCP is not as important as compositing. I would argue that FCP should be a video editor first and a sound editor second. Compositing is an added bonus to any video editing application but if you want to do serious "vertical editing" then there are a number of dedicated packages for that.

In regards to audio, I would rather have better sound editing capabilities in FCP 4 rather than tighter integration with a dedicated sound editing program. Switching between applications interrupts the workflow and in most cases it also means another generation loss for the captured media.

I have two suggestions to improve audio editing in FCP: one, make the audio in the time-line taller, just like in ProTools. The more visual an audio file becomes, the easier it is to edit. Two, give us the capability to do sub-frame editing of audio. In the current FCP 3 I can nudge my audio in frames, not in samples like I could with ProTools. Precision is one of those things that give you an edge in any editing system so i hope these features appear in FCP4.
 
I'm retracting my last opinion and agreeing w/Sol that audio should be above compositing on the importance scale. Sub-frame editing would be very nice, and I think there is a way to "cheat" and edit sub-frame in FCP 3, but I don't remember what it is off the top of my head. I also like the RT audio faders in Premiere 6. It's much more natural way to manipulate audio than using key frames.


Lethal
 
More on audio in FCP

While we are on to audio, why isn't there a way in FCP to adjust the overall volume level of several tracks at once? I remember this basic feature from an old Media 100 system I used in the days of OS 7.something and would expect it to be in any video editing program from day one. It would also be great to stretch the VU meter to be as tall at the screen, something that is possible in Premiere if I am not mistaken.
 
What do you think the strategy will be?

I'm glad to see a lot of people agree that FCP's audio features need serious attention.

Since this press conference is supposed to address Apple's video strategy, perhaps we are seeing the end of Apple buying and rebranding technologies from smaller companies and maybe entering into partnerships with existing firms who can provide solutions faster than Apple has been able to. Anyone know why they bought Spruce to begin with?

I don't imagine we'll see too much integration of various products into one mega-package. Apple likes selling us more and more $999 software too much. Eventually, you know you'll have to buy a new computer to run it all.

Wait...isn't that a 970 I hear coming?
 
I know this isn't a FCP User Group but as far as the audio capabilities of FCP:

1. there is sub-frame editing of audio to 1/100 of a frame. In the Viewer zoom-in on a frame, you can add sub frame keyframes. You cut subframe by holding down shift and drag your player head to the part of the frame to cut and mark-in.

2. You can adjust as many tracks and clips at once as you like by using the select tool or clicking multiple tracks and using the Levels in the Modify menu and doing global changes absolutely or relatively.
 
Re: Packages

Originally posted by Sol
I I would not include Shake in such a package because it is more expensive (or so I think, seeing that I could not find the software in the online Apple Store of Australia).
Click to expand...

in australia intraware sell shake
http://www.intraware.com.au/

price is around $11,000au
 
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