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There is another interesting phenomena of work life. When I shifted from engineering to finance, I got involved in a lot of budget negotiations. It amazed me how many issues would not be resolved by email or teleconference, but would get resolved face-to-face. I suppose there is something about observing body language and human contact that facilitates arriving at a common understanding. On some level, I guess we are still social animals. Perhaps, this is one reason everyone from heads of state to small business owners still make an effort to meet in person.

Maybe? Maybe not?

Sometimes formality is more important to people than whatever else is actually going on. People can get really caught up on formality. I'm not convinced it is that we are social animals as much as it is adherence to "the way it was done for as long as I can remember" and what they are inculcated into accepting as normal and necessary.

Teasing out the differences between culture and instinct is a hard goddamned job and there's not a lot of blatantly obvious objective answers to the questions asked.
 
Siri was never impressive at Apple. If you want to attack Siri, do so from the context of the entire existence of it under Apple, not from the COVID19-era of work-from-home business.
I specifically mentioned the HomePod, HomeKit and iOS 15.

Yes, iOS 15 is when Siri on the HomePod went full on…, right during the thick of WFH. If you used the HomePod with HomeKit for the past few years, you’d understand. It’s a warm heaping pile of donkey dung right now and many of the users in the HomePod/HomeKit sub can attest to that.

Never had issues with Siri on the HomePod, pre iOS 15.

So once again, glad he left. His product is terrible and the end users are paying for his laziness.
 
One study suggests creativity/brainstorming might be more varied with in-person interaction, but I have questions about that study, and brainstorming is not the model of all workplace tasks. Most can be WFH. Article after article publishes showing that productivity is better when workers can CHOOSE to work from home, can avoid stressful commutes, undesirable office politics & socializing, set their own hours, etc...

Well you are free to believe as you wish but I don’t need a study to tell me whether or not humans spent millennia evolving as collaborators. I can use common sense reasoning. We didn’t have email, cell phones, Zoom or FaceTime, so that just leaves personal interaction. And I didn’t say it was a critical model in all workplace tasks, I said I could understand why a company like Apple may wish to go out of their way to preserve it. Your last point about productivity is context sensitive. If we’re talking about creative group productivity and collaborative thinking then there’s simply no substitute for face-to-face social interaction with your peers.
 
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I'm not sure that diminishes the intent of school closures. Rather, it seems to imply that there's a further need to prevent congregation.
How are you going to keep kids from spending time together outside of school? Maybe something like what China is doing? Or, maybe arresting children playing at public parks? Or, maybe arresting parents holding play dates? Family gatherings with cousins? Birthdays?

Is it really practical and workable to isolate children from each other outside of school for the entire duration of the school closures, which went on for almost a full term in some areas? What are the deleterious effects of this type of isolation....not to mention the loss in educational progress from closed schools in the first place?

I wonder how many public health officials would argue for what you are suggesting. Public policy has to be workable. Do you have children? I am no expert, since I have only raised three, but what you are proposing does not seem workable to me.
 
My perception is mine and for me it’s valid.

Your perception seems to be formed through making assumptions about the former Apple employee, misconstruing the meanings of various words, and presenting your subjective opinion as if it were objective fact.

When someone leaves because their in a comfortable position to do so in my view isn’t being free that’s just their ina position of power or confidence to do so.

Being in a position of power to affect things is literally freedom.

Being free is doing it when even you are not in a position of power or wealthy or readiness.

🤷🏽‍♂️ I mean... I can sort of get where you're coming from, but I don't think that's how most people use the term "freedom".

That shows a real person because dispute the comfort, confidence, safety net, they have the cajones to act regardless.

That's not freedom. That's assertiveness, confidence, and/or bravery.

And it’s pure will and nothing else to aid that decision,

People do not do things via "pure will". If you have no actual power to change a situation, "pure will" does not change the situation. It sounds like magical thinking.

in fact there are many reasons to go against th at decision without such power, comfort, or wealth.

Again, you seem to be referring to bravery or assertiveness, not freedom. There's no moral qualification for freedom where you're free because you acted at the most difficult moment and pushed against terrible odds. That's not what freedom means. That might be considered a "struggle for freedom", but it is not the definition of freedom.

You might need to brush up on the definitions and common usage of a lot of English words. Maybe this all just boils down to a communication failure.

"Freedom is understood as either having the ability to act or change without constraint or to possess the power and resources to fulfill one's purposes." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom

This describes former Apple employee Ian's situation.
 
In the 2000s if you couldn't learn to use a computer you were let go. In the 2010s if you couldn't adapt to online in the office you were let go. Employees need to understand that not every employee will be in the office, and if you can't adapt you will be let go.
Where I’m from you can’t just be ‘let go’ for these things. The company has the onus for training you or for teaching you to adapt, they employed you after all.
I know the US is different for workers rights than most of the rest of the western world, so you may be from there and referring to the work ethic there.
Besides, I cant imagine too many people wouldn’t be able to adapt to working from home!
 
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It's not really that obvious, though. That's why this pandemic shutdown's remote working has been such an awakening for so many people. Not only did people accomplish things they assumed they needed to do in person, they even improved in some areas, in terms of productivity. I DO think there are reasons to be in person in a work place, but I really do think that a lot of otherwise seemingly obvious things have been debunked.
I think we’re essentially in agreement.
 
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It's a ploy. Companies are going to start 2 x salary bands; work from home bands for people who don't need to be in the office, and 'weighted' bands to compensate workers for going into the office. The WFH band is going to be low.
 
WFH avoids commute/travel and I get to work in shorts and a tee, even when I have meetings. I do work more productive at home but in exchange for working more hours. I work in consulting so my work is already so demanding. Less friendly interactions with colleagues is a big hit to my mental well-being.
 
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You may not like sports and kids, but it is so statistically improbable (to the point I would call you a liar), that there isn't something in the world no work related that you do enjoy talking about, and have had conversations about.
There are, but the examples you gave are indeed the most common, and therefore also the most tiresome to me.

Again, even in your examples, the reasons you left jobs was personal interaction, not financial. And if you worked at multiple jobs where the bosses were "bullying sociopaths" and the respective HR departments were caricatures of conspiracy theories, it sounds like the problem might not be them.

The problem was definitely them. You might want to look into what gaslighting and actual experiences with sociopaths does to people.

Psychologists estimate that as much as 3-5% of the population could be sociopaths. This makes finding one about 1 in 20, two 1 in 400, and three one in 8000. Its not impossible, but it is unlikely.

Please explain your notation there.

I worked for the same guy three times, so that was three occurrences of a sociopathic manager/boss. One of his habits was to kiss ass until he felt comfortable, then start challenging authority until he could no longer progress in a workplace. Then he would leave for another job, claiming the current workplace no longer aligned with his work goals (when really he had made a mess of things for himself and needed to leave, especially to maintain his self-delusion that he was in control and that everyone else was in the wrong without making himself look obviously problematic). He invited me to apply to the next two jobs as a way to stack the deck and supply himself with what he thought was an obedient and pliable subordinate... but the third time around involved me being a lot more assertive and having coworkers who let me know that things were not right, and it wasn't me who was the problem.

It really took until the third time for me to realize I was not dealing with a normal person, and others had to help me see it. I was too naive and willing to give people the benefit of the doubt at the first workplace, I had minimal interaction with him at the second, and I thought he was my friend up until he drove me from the workplace in tears at the third and final workplace, twice.

The HR department was either managed by and/or employed sociopaths, or utterly callous scumbags that are hard to tell from actual sociopaths (these are people who literally lie to your face when you know it's a lie, reframe all scenarios in a way that gaslights others, and still somehow sounds reasonable on the surface, using the system against itself). Hard to tell for sure. Organizations can be described as sociopathic by their collective behaviors.

Sociopathy seems to be greatly undercounted, from all evidence I've seen in day to day life/news... but ALSO, sociopaths are attracted to positions of authority, which means managers, bosses, executives, cops, layers, legislators, etc. will have a higher percentage of such people in their ranks, and therefore you'll encounter more in such positions.

Worse: American culture literally rewards sociopathic behavior with wealth and power. So it's more likely that we will encounter sociopaths in positions of authority.

The question is whether we recognize them as such. It isn't a simple discovery process. It takes targeted study or a lot of exposure to them (or knowledge about the personality disorder) to detect their habits and patterns. Some are more functional/successful than others. Not all are megalomaniac narcissists, and some succeed in never being openly hostile. Some are even charming on the surface.

The American psychiatric establishment (notably the DSM, last I checked) doesn't even recognize sociopathy as distinct from psychopathy (the UK system does, last I checked), but I think a distinction is absolutely meaningful and critically important (since psychopathic behavior tends to get them filtered out of society, while sociopathic behavior tends to get rewarded by our sociopathic institutions).

Aside from that guy, I previously worked for a sociopath/narcissist (not sure which or if both issues were present) in my second job, which was my first job in tech. I was very young and naive. I didn't understand why everyone else in the office hated him... until he started demonstrating at me with his insecurity and hostility.

After him was a potential narcissist or sociopath call center manager and sociopath HR manager... or as close as it gets without clinical observations of their behavior in the long term (listening to an HR manager construct a false reality right in front of you, to support their claims and decision making, and to refuse to directly answer questions, repeating stock phrases, is goddamned creepy).

Social lives will always be tied to jobs because working together is social.

One kind of social life, I'll grant that. There's definitely a difference between workplace social connections and non-workplace social connections. Indeed, we meet friends and partners where we spend most of our time: From a young age to graduation, that's school. From there onward, that's work. Of course we will make connections at work, and some of them will be life long friends or even relationship partners. Most will only be acquaintances, of the type that most people wouldn't choose to make a regular part of their personal lives.

But work social environments get complicated fast, and a lot of people have learned to participate minimally to survive repeat bad experiences. Some people are literally traumatized by them, and I am one of those.

Teams usually work efficiently than individuals.

"Usually" is a good inclusion there, because it depends on the work and the workers. You would find a very productive genius programmer in my girlfriend's ex boyfriend, and also someone who rarely interacts socially, but is a workaholic, and almost entirely self-directed. He's not nearly the only one I'm aware of, but he's a great example since he lived and worked remotely for as long as she knew him, moving from one state to another, every few months and rarely going into any kind of workplace. This was many years before COVID19 forced remote work on people.

One of my high school friends has been living similarly for almost 20 years.

And my 'anecdote' about education has years of worldwide data backing it up. Feel free to look at any genuine research covering the quality of education, test scores, and so on during COVID lockdowns. It may have been needed to help stop the plague (not trying to debate that), but it was certainly less effective. Look at how in-person universities - like Harvard - favor in person schooling over remote learning.

I think I posted a reply to that earlier in this thread.
 
WFH avoids commute/travel and I get to work in shorts and a tee, even when I have meetings. I do work more productive at home but in exchange for working more hours. I work in consulting so my work is already so demanding. Less friendly interactions with colleagues is a big hit to my mental well-being.
My brother just moved to Austin, Texas, where he’s also an investor/consultant in the financial industry, and he also works direct from home. Even though that he found his ‘dream job’ per se, he finds it completely monotonous and boring, where he has zero contacts in terms of a social group of people that’s been eliminated from working from home. So it’s not like it’s the ‘best of everything’, when I find people prefer to have the hybrid model in some respects.

Me? My job requires me to travel for the government, but I also meet a variety of people and have connections all over, that requires me to be extremely extroverted, but that’s why I was chosen for this position, and there’s some minimal work from home, but the majority of it I prefer to be in contact and not secluded away, which I suspect has more of a mental burden on people who sit at home all day and don’t know how to ‘turn off the switch’ when they compound working from home and living in the same environment.
 
I have been working remotely for the last 5 years, not because of covid but because of the location I’m living at. As a co founder it was my decision to build the company like that.
While flexibility, especially with key talent, is a must, there is nothing that can replace meeting people in person.
I am starving to go back to at least some regular office days. Would not want it to be 5 days, but the 3/2 ratio is a very good compromise.
This whole Apple discussion sounds very entitled to me…
 
BP's website where they report that they lost $20 Billion is wrong?

What is the job of the news sites? To report the facts or to generate clicks? What happens if BP reports incorrect information? They are answerable to the SEC.

News websites report facts if you visit reputable ones and when they all report the same thing it tends to be true, I agree a loss is a loss, but they still also announced profits double that if last year in the same quarter and a 2.4 billions share buy back scheme.
 
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Compared to the millions of big Styrofoam cups from Dunkin, your truckstop and Starbucks?

Actually, yes, because the little cups that people feed into the machines for single doses of coffee double the container usage (not gram per gram of plastic, but it's definitely twice in number compared to machines that make larger amounts of coffee at one time). A coffee/gas shop's 50 gallon boiler dispenses a billion bitter caffeine & acid doses before being trashed (or cleaned), and what goes into them doesn't come one-package-per-dose. The packaging is more resource efficient.

Someone informed me that one of the brands makes these little cups out of potatoes, so that's cool. Takes commercial composting, but if it's not petroleum and IS compostable at all, it's an improvement. Paper is also less harmful than styrofoam, but still terribly wasteful.

But all those cups... Still perfectly awful. So many things in our culture are environmentally horrifying. I respect those who carry their own reusable container with them, refusing disposables, when maintaining their caffeine addiction.
 
i didn’t say that. On the other hand the person I responded to said ABSOLUTELY no reason to go the office….I was much more flexible in my wording asking that people not exaggerate the truth.

You didn't say what? The text from your post that I quoted? Actually, now that I look at it again, your quoting of me is attributed to someone else. Weird.

The person who said absolutely no one... I agree that was out of bounds of reason. It was an untrue absolute statement.
 
I tend to think of tech like Amazon, Microsoft, Apple, Google, Facebook, Salesforce, etc. And tech jobs as engineers. Sorry if I was unclear.

Activision stock was about $12 ten years ago. It is $78 as of Friday so that's a really great return for a decade. But you could also have just put the money into an S&P 500 Index fund and had pretty good gains.

Thanks for clarifying.
 
Most jobs require a collaboration with a team. Unless you are a craftsman or something along those lines.
So for all other jobs, the importance to be face-to-face is there.

Lots of collaboration can also be done remotely. The argument isn't "nobody should ever work in an office or do face-to-face work" (well one person said NO ONE EVER NEEDS TO, and that was an absolute and therefore incorrect claim).

The argument is "stop attacking people for wanting to work remotely" 😉 (not necessarily directed at you)
 
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It’s not that long ago but I’m pretty sure what shocked me most was they downloaded all of this data inside Johny Srouji’s lab. I cannot imagine that happening in Ive’s lab

What would have been the difference? Also, I don't think they worked in the same kinds of labs or on the same kinds of things at all.

and not because of any ill intent towards Srouji - just that maybe Apple has slackened off in some ways and is now going after the wrong targets.

I don't think they slacked off. I think they got stung by an egregious act of betrayal by an employee they had no reason to specifically suspect would do such a thing. Paranoia is often inspired by actual incidents, and reactions to traumatic incidents can result in reflexively going after any and all perceived threats... key word being "perceived".
 
This is the dumbest take ever.

At the professional level there is no "clock". You have a job to do, you do it and get it done. That's it. If you do three hours of workin the morning, four hours in the afternoon and finish something up for an hour at 23:30 before bed, you're being just as effective as someone who has to go to the office do it in an 8-10 hour chunk.

People who want to slack off will do so at the office too. Eventually their low output will be noticed and they'll be talked to and possibly dismissed like any other bad employee.
It was the dumbest take until your comment was posted.
There is always, and I mean always. A clock.
 
Declaration: I’m a senior dev and I’m also on the wrong end of the autism spectrum. They made me work in an open plan office for years. It was dreadful - people not operating at my level cannot begin to comprehend the disastrous impact of interrupting me, before you add in autism’s disdain for breaking concentration. That’s why I’ve worked from home for ten years and actually did my best work during the lockdowns. I was no longer tied to an arbitrary 9-5 and one of the mechanisms local government in the UK used to get COVID support payments out to people was based on an API I wrote at 4am one morning.

May have got done in the office but certainly not on time and not with the same quality.

I empathize. I have similar issues. They were problematic before I was coerced onto psych drugs for 6 years+, but I functioned. Today I have an extreme startle-response to sudden noises/events that has not gotten much better in the 10+ years since I escaped being drugged for no reasonable cause other than someone else was on psych drugs and was playing armchair psychiatrist and bully-friend (not friends with him anymore).

I live in a row house, in area that has had substantial increases in egregious vehicle noise (as in, vehicles made intentionally noisy, and police don't do a damned thing about it). I also hear my neighbors' TVs, voices, appliances, etc., all day, and one of them chain-smokes his filth through the air gaps between the houses, so I am assaulted by odors as well. My nervous system is constantly under assault, and most people seem like they're insensate to me for how LITTLE they notice around them.

When last I worked (it's been years, thanks to PTSD and a sleep disorder), I always worked better on my own, or on a one-on-one training task (which only lasted an hour or so, and I was happy to help people with tech, even if it was stressful). My social skills weren't an issue (until psych drugs), but I was definitely very much an exposed nerve.

I really empathize.
 
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What's clear is that you harbor an irrational and emotionally-driven stance on work-from-home employees, which you character assassinate as "loafers" and "entitled freeloaders". Not only is this a bizarrely hostile reaction to complete strangers for no clear reason, it also assumes that management at Apple is too stupid to recognize when their WFH employees are not getting work done. You appear to be engaging in culture war, and it makes absolutely no sense when anyone, of any political affiliation and generation, can work from home on most office-type tasks. It's not limited to "those people", whoever is your scapegoat of choice.
Last time with you. Apple didn't hire people to chill at home and then whine like a toddler when they're told to get back in the office to do their job. Apple is their employer and can dictate terms as they see fit. They don't like it, don't let the door hit their ass on the way out.
 
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Last time with you. Apple didn't hire people to chill at home and then whine like a toddler when they're told to get back in the office to do their job. Apple is their employer and can dictate terms as they see fit. They don't like it, don't let the door hit their ass on the way out.

Have fun trying to retain and get top talent over time with that mentality, people's mindsets are obviously shifting right now so going forward this will be an important way of working to be able to recruit good people. I am sure many people will want to work at Apple regardless just for it being good on their resumé but retention will most likely go down once they "did their time".
 
I was on a customer call many years ago. A large HMO's patient management system was down and I was sent to diagnose and fix the problem if possible. So I flew there, checked into my hotel, got dressed and went to the office. They explained the problem (it was vague) and the put me in a chair in front of a terminal with two VPs and a sales manager in the room. I looked at crash dumps, logs and did some database page dumps for about five hours. During that time, the people in the room asked me a bunch of questions about what I was doing and what I was trying to do.

You can imagine how helpful that was.

Did you find that people didn't think you were doing anything productive because computer tasks look passive to a lot of people who expect furious "hacker typing" and flashing screens because of TV/movies?

So I said that I was leaving at night and went for a drive for about an hour to work out the problem in my mind. I had some ideas from looking at all of the data and tried to piece together my best analysis of what happened. Eventually I put it together and went back to the hotel, told them that I likely had it figured out, got a few hours of sleep and then went back in in the morning and explained the problem and the solution.

Working can be in the shower, at the beach, driving someplace, or seeing something that triggers an idea or solution. You might even come up with a solution while you are asleep.

They did manage to get their system back up and running so that their doctors could get back to work.

I have another example of this with a large airline parts manufacturer where their production line was completely shut down. That was one time when we worked around the clock in the office as I needed another engineer with specific expertise. Sometimes you need to work alone without distractions. Sometimes you need to work closely with other people.

Fredrich August von Kekule, a famous German chemist, was attempting to determine the shape of the benzene molecule, which was known to have six carbon atoms. In 1865, reflecting upon his discovery of the hexagonal-ring like structure, he asserted that the solution came to him in a dream1; however, it is not clear if he was in rapid eye movement (REM) sleep dreaming or if he was in non-REM (NREM) sleep imagery. It is possible to think of this type of discoveries as an expression of creativity, i.e. the ability to use existing pieces of information and combine them in novel patterns leading to greater understanding and new solutions. Preliminary support of the role of sleep in creative thinking comes from a recent study by Wagner et al.2; these authors asked normal participants to perform a cognitive task, the Number Reduction Task. In this task, participants are required to understand a set of stimulus-response sequences and supply a single representative numerical answer. Improvement in task performance may be gradual (i.e., by slowly increasing response speed), or abrupt (after insight into an abstract rule underlying all sequences). They found that 59% of the participants that were allowed to sleep were able to perform the task in a time that was 70% shorter than the other group that did not sleep and suggested that sleep may facilitate insight-related problem solving. Here we report the results of the first study showing a direct complex correlation between sleep architecture or microstructure and creativity in normal controls.


Neat stuff!

And here I am with a sleep disorder that results in almost nothing but stage 1 & 2 sleep. All dreams/activity... but a greatly reduced creative capacity because I don't get restful sleep (stage 3, formerly 3 or 4 now merged in definitions), so I am generally always fatigued and emotionally worn out... and I'm surrounded by noise, and I have an inhibition problem (previously being on an SSNRI drug left me unable to control impulses for 6 years+ while on it, and now I have the opposite problem of not being able to act on impulses without considerable internal debate, especially since nothing seems worth doing at all, because of decades of punishment for my efforts, or just no reward of any kind).

While I've never woken up with a sudden realization, I have definitely found myself still working on problems while not working on them. Sometimes to the point where it's intrusive thinking. Occasionally, the correct solution comes in those times, if not merely "I have not tried this".

And at numerous times, I have suddenly realized or understood something I had previously not grasped, just by talking out my situation or problem to another person. Even without their input, the act of explaining it to them causes me to think differently (though I definitely can get this from a FaceTime chat).
 
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