Apple's Fines in Dutch Antitrust Case Hit 50 Million Euros

[visualseed]

We should force stores to sell what products we want on their shelves at the price we want too, sports stadiums shouldn’t be allow to exist with full control of the stores within it, we should be allowed to put PlayStation disks in our Xbox, ect. Why is only apple being targeted?

I want to bring my own snacks to movie theaters and openly sell them to other patrons.

 

[visualseed]

It isn't only Apple. They just are the current limelight kid.

the DMA specifically targets American tech companies while conveniently leaving European ones under the threshold and exempting like Chinese and Russian companies that would have met the revenue / market requirements. The law is discriminatory at its core.

 

[DeepIn2U]

Now the fines need to increase to 50 Million euro per week. I'm sure someone at Apple will perk up.

I think shareholders SHOULD see this as a needless waste of funds by Apple executive & Legal team.

Either a) fix this issue properly and nip it in the bud, or b) start taking these costs out of executive compensation since they clearly think this is a joke and it’s a waste of shareholder and revenue cash.

 

[pankajdoharey]

How can EU legislate how people built their software or any product for that matter? Can countries regulate their way to product user experience? Can these countries tell german car companies should give an option to remove and put a competing software from another maker in those cars to be able to tune better? Or be able to change the software in their Car Entertainment systems? If no then why are they forcing a mobile maker to put a software from another maker.

 

[macsound1]

The world shouldn't pay for your parents lack of knowledge.

wow

 

[Beautyspin]

Easy solution: comply. Let this ONE country be a very public guinea pig. Either:

• Nearly all iPhones in this country will be destroyed by everyone taking advantage of the new option OR
• Some iPhones in this country will be destroyed by some taking advantage of the new option OR
• Nearly nothing will happen and all of the spin about the certain cataclysm that will follow such an option will be seen for what it likely is: far, far overblown.

We ALL have Macs running almost the same OS. Those Macs can buy/install Apps from an iOS-like store completely controlled by Apple or Apps direct from third parties. Are all Macs completely destroyed by us all having that kind of store flexibility already?

How does Apple address this situation on Macs? They pop up a warning about installing apps from unknown sources. Then it's on the Mac owner to proceed or not proceed. If they proceed and the owner is actually installing every computer virus ever created, that's clearly on the owner. Apple could send a "we warned them" notice to itself so that when this person is calling Apple for help, Apple customer service will know that software was installed from questionable sources.

Has the flexibility to purchase Mac Apps from wherever brought all Macs to their knees? Not at all. Have some Macs been compromised by that flexibility? Yes. iOS devices will likely be the same. Most will probably continue to get apps as they do now. Those concerned about safety will continue to get their apps from what they believe is the safest source. Some of those less concerned or too dumb or naive may- in fact- compromise their iDevices.

Here's a chance to show the world how "terrible" it would actually be for a finite group of people to facilitate competition... just like all of us already have with our Macs. If it actually is a disaster, a slice of one relatively small group of people will suffer the consequences, learn from their mistake and not make it again. On the other hand, if iOS goes as macOS is already, the flexibility to purchase from more than one source will likely deliver better prices and more money actually reaching the developers instead of a company already richer than any other.

Before it's forced on Apple by many countries, here's an easy opportunity to prove the disaster... or reveal the hype is false. If disaster, other countries wanting the same may pull back and preserve the "as is." A very simple test will clearly prove it if it will be as spun.

Apple is worried about other unintended consequences such as:
1. Google maps becoming the default on billions of phones and Apple maps getting trashed
2. Google stops paying 12 billion per year to Apple to be the default search engine as it is no longer necessary that Safari be the default
3. Google, MS, Amazon, Epic and others will bring their App Stores to iOS.
4. Developers will offer their apps at a discount if you buy directly from them and they will have more features as they can access more APIs (like in Mac)
Exciting time for all the Apple followers.

 

[ghostface147]

I don’t know if they have excessive fine laws over there, but if you want to make Apple pay attention, fine them 80 billion a week.

 

[abhibeckert]

How can EU legislate how people built their software or any product for that matter? Can countries regulate their way to product user experience?

Governments can legislate basically anything. For example, many of them have a completely arbitrary rule that I have to drive on a certain side of the road.

 

[abhibeckert]

I don’t know if they have excessive fine laws over there, but if you want to make Apple pay attention, fine them 80 billion a week.

The maximum possible penalty for antitrust is 20% of global annual revenue. For Apple that would be about $80 billion.

Nobody has ever been fined that much, but also no company as big as Apple has ever been found guilty of a major infringement. Smaller companies have been fined low billions for the same class of offence.

 

[gregmancuso]

You mean where Apple makes proposal after proposal and regulators come up with new rules like 'no has to be a single app' and 'no it needs to support in-app purchases at the same time' to keep the fines trickling in?

And that "single app" requirement is absolutely arbitrary, capricious, and idiotic. Maintaining multiple binaries is standard practice. There are many reasons for doing so - localization, a version with adds, a version with IAP, store-specific releases, etc. The Netherlands App Store is just another store-specific release. I would be most of these dating app developers already maintain many different binaries.

 

[dk001]

the DMA specifically targets American tech companies while conveniently leaving European ones under the threshold and exempting like Chinese and Russian companies that would have met the revenue / market requirements. The law is discriminatory at its core.

I get your point and not just Apple.

 

[gregmancuso]

Good statement…

“Only a monopolist would prefer to pay €50 million in fines instead of outright complying with the rule of law,” said Rick VanMeter, the executive director of the Coalition for App Fairness”

The Coalition for App Fairness is a joke. It is a mouthpiece for basically one whiney Tim. And the original rule was to offer payment options. Apple provided several options that all met the requirements. The ACM kept moving the line. Anyone who thought Apple was going to just make a new rule for Netherlands that said "No Fees, Any Billing, We Don't Care" is deluded.

 

[Beautyspin]

Call the EU’s bluff. Pull out of the market and watch them all complain to their governments about crappy choice and an Android only market monopoly. Then when the crap hits the fan and the governments say ok you can comeback. Please come back. Go back and double the prices to recover the loss.

Apple makes about 90 billion USD from EU, or about 24% of its total profits. They will evaporate just like that. Would you like to know the consequences of that? Tim Cook will be fired by the shareholders and he will not get a job anywhere. Not sure who is responsible for Apple EU market but they are going to get the same treatment. Samsung and others will happily fill the gap. Apple will be surprised to know that nobody cares about Apple so much that they do not mind the corporation thumbing their nose at their government. And wait for when the US implements Anti-trust bill (Or also known as the sideloading bill). Will Apple pull out of USA too?

 

[Salvor Hardin]

Muricans: Free Market is the foundation of a sound financial system as it does away with monopolies and allow everyone to compete.

Also muricans: NOOO!!!! It's unfair to allow apps for a phone someone owns to be available except trough this one single source! What do you mean "alternative payments"? If you don't want to pay trough this one company for the same app this one company allows to exist then go to communist china and use an Android phone!!11!!! My AAPL stock!!!!111

Oh apps will still be available though a single source just a dozen or more of them, it’s going be like what happened on PC with Epic and all the other janky launcher/stores having exclusively over games but ramped up at to 11 as millions are spent to pull apps and games from the App Store along with the promise of being free of all those pesky little protections.

 

[senttoschool]

I think shareholders SHOULD see this as a needless waste of funds by Apple executive & Legal team.

Either a) fix this issue properly and nip it in the bud, or b) start taking these costs out of executive compensation since they clearly think this is a joke and it’s a waste of shareholder and revenue cash.

As a shareholder, I don't see them as a needless waste of funds. I think Apple needs to make a stand. The Dutch is over legislating. I think Apple should exist Netherlands instead of complying.

 

[DeLaSoul]

I can think of a situation where 3rd party app stores are allowed, yet they have to audit all apps too, or have an independent auditor audit all apps in those stores for security and privacy. Then we get the best of both worlds in the Apple ecosystem: Apple’s level of security and privacy, and competitive stores with competitive app rates. Everyone wins.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

MacOS users do not have choice. MacOS users are locked into whatever distribution channel the dev chooses and most go it alone. This is the same level of "choice" that iOS users have.

We do, developers can have apps in both the Mac AppStore or alternative places and can at almost anytime export it to alternative distribution channels except the Mac AppStore. Or even buy it multiple times if I want to move to another platform.

Or use steam to have cross platform ownership. iOS users are stoped from using anything but the AppStore And are objectively locked and unable to chose.

iOS provides a unique, one-stop-shop, experience for apps, payments and support that focuses on privacy protection which IMHO provides a great customer experience.

There’s multiple payments system that focuses on privacy and protection.

MacOS, like the PC world, forces users to scour the intarwebz for apps and locks them into potentially no-name payment processors (ex: not every dev uses ApplePay, PayPal or Amazon for payments).

No name payment systems are illegal in EU

Ask yourself what you really want:

1) A single location and login for searching, comparing, downloading, upgrading, paying and support (payments) for apps that gives you a report card view what data they are collecting.

or

2) A login for the Apple, Amazon, Microsoft, Steam, Google, Facebook, Epic, stores.... plus all the independent ones where you need to give them all your personal information and receive no warnings as to what data they are collecting about you and selling to god knows who.

How about option two? And you can’t collect personal information however you want in EU or sell it to whoever you want.

Plus EU is working to implement apples current privacy requirements as they liked it but to cover everyone.

 

[4jasontv]

I think shareholders SHOULD see this as a needless waste of funds by Apple executive & Legal team.

Either a) fix this issue properly and nip it in the bud, or b) start taking these costs out of executive compensation since they clearly think this is a joke and it’s a waste of shareholder and revenue cash.

This is good for shareholders.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

So you didn't know that you licensed the software and would have limitations when you bought your devices and downloaded software? I assume you resist all HOA rules, too?

That’s why it’s called purchase. The software license isn’t legally binding according to existing rules if not provided by the retailer before money changes hands. If apple believes otherwise they are free to challenge it in court.

Ha, HOA doesn’t exist in most of EU if not at all ?

 

[deevey]

Really? Really? You actually really have a problem with buying the software direct from the companies that produce the software you need for your work? Come off it. That's like saying I refuse to buy my beer directly from the brewery that makes it, because I can't trust them as much as the bottle shop that I'm used to buying it from.

Serious Question. Would you trust a Facebook App downloaded from Facebook?

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Debatable. One will not know the outcome of any without going down one of those roads.

Built with Mac OS X technology, YES. Built to work on a mobile device and not a full desktop computer.
The phone has different needs and requirements. For this specific argument, it can't use the same exact OS as the desktop. It needs to be custom for the device(s), which is why it has it's own name iOS/iPadOS/TVOS/WatchOS.

Sure they could all run a full desktop OS, but interacting with it would be completely wrong.

They are also requiring Apple protect the users and developers just as well as they do today without having to worry about 3rd party stores on iOS/iPadOS. They are not treating it as a desktop OS. This is more work for Apple not less, and for no extra benefit. Which is why I've stated that Apple should provide a blank OS with no Apps other than a choice to download your browser of choice. Everything else is a side load. But, someone else pointed out that it is not good enough under the new EU law. So, yeah.....

But, it's not like we have all he apps right? I mean having it open like MacOS is today has not brought about this renaissance of development on the Mac Platform. Apple was going to usher that in with the M1 chips. So you can now run (potentially) all iOS/iPad OS apps on the Mac.

One of the things they are trying to avoid. And rightfully so. Apple would rather it be safe by default. That is what they sold you.

And blame Apple for it. Thanks EU.

Why can't we just learn from it before making the mistake? We know exactly how this will play out. Let's just not do the dumb thing, maybe?

I will point back to my previous point of MacOS not having all the apps and they have been open forever. But, we know the MacOS is less safe than iOS and is open. And iOS has more development and it's closed. Can't we just understand that fact? Why is that so hard to see.

Governments are slow to change. Quick to do something stupid.
Changing one line of code could break many different things. It's not something to do lightly or because some dumbass told you to do so because they think it will be fine.

The EU commission i believe have worked on this for 7!years

 

[Abazigal]

the DMA specifically targets American tech companies while conveniently leaving European ones under the threshold and exempting like Chinese and Russian companies that would have met the revenue / market requirements. The law is discriminatory at its core.

The word I would use is hypocrisy. It’s basically a thinly -veiled attempt to kneecap the big US tech giants and favour their own local businesses.

There is zero user benefit from any of this. Of course the EU has the right to pass whatever legislation they want, but let’s be honest here. This is wholly about benefiting businesses and not about looking out for consumers.

 

[CJM]

Why's it always up to EU legislators to have a spine and tell companies to comply and yet in the US they have these high profile cases that lead to absolutely nowhere.

iOS should be like macOS, the end. Shareholders, go away.

 

[pacalis]

Slippery slope here. Apple should pull this whole section of shady apps to learn about the consequences of a hard line in a smaller market.

And, if I read the background right, these are basically US companies jurisdiction shopping and messing around in the EU (Match group, blackstone etc....)

 

[rembert]

You would figure the Netherlands would have more to worry about at the moment. With I don’t know the war on their doorstep. But they keep coming up with ways to get money by fining companies. Why dating apps only? I mean Apple created the store why should companies get to bypass that? Simple solution people could go out and meet each other for free instead of paying for an app.

I'm from the netherlands. That war is 2000 km from here, we do have lots of refugees though. In the Netherlands it's just one agency (ACM), the dating companies, some enthusiasts and some shady NGO worrying about this. Everyone else don't seem to care about a need for alternative stores or alternative payment methods. With the app store (and play store) prices for software went DOWN considerably. Futhermore, 15-30% selling costs is actually quite a bargain (for book authors it's about 90-95%) even though some want us to believe otherwise.

Funny you mentioned the war. I wouldn't be too surprised if efforts to allow alternative payment methods and app stores are a deliberate effort to destabilize the app store ecosystem, ultimately resulting in a lower level of cyber security and allowing espionage etc.