From watching the Madden video, It seems that your fingers could slip on the virtual controller when running for instance. What was your experience with this?
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Apple's Focus on Games: Madden NFL 2010, Nova, Assassin's Creed, Riddim Ribbon
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The graph apple showed made me laugh hard. I actually read it as the number of ***** games on each platform, then it makes sense.
I love my consoles, I think I have owned most of them, and by far the worst controls are that of the iphone/iphone touch. without the physical controller and buttons is just damn ackward. Has anyone tried duke nukem 3d? Garbage. The touch is great for simple games that involve basic controls but not for any type of serious gaming. Though as others have commented people do not but these for games, of all my mates who have one, noone plays games. I think apple is fooling themselves if they think that the touch is a gaming device.
I love my consoles, I think I have owned most of them, and by far the worst controls are that of the iphone/iphone touch. without the physical controller and buttons is just damn ackward. Has anyone tried duke nukem 3d? Garbage. The touch is great for simple games that involve basic controls but not for any type of serious gaming. Though as others have commented people do not but these for games, of all my mates who have one, noone plays games. I think apple is fooling themselves if they think that the touch is a gaming device.
Do you think it's possible Apple will focus on games for their Macs next? Maybe they will after their next even in October.
I don't think games will be 100% effective until a gamepad of somesorts can be added to the iPhone dock connector.
A couple of thoughts...
The Nova / Halo like game looks good. I haven't played many FPS games on my iPhone 3Gs but did try the lite version of Terminator Salvation and thought the controls were pretty good and actually better than expected.
For games like Madden and heck, any other game that isn't really using the accelerometer, why can't Apple (or a 3rd party) develop a game pad that plugs in and/or uses bluetooth? I remember when OS 3 came out they were talking about hardware that could plugged into the phone. The example I remember was the cuff thing to take your blood pressure. The iPhone was used to display the pressure. So why not a game pad / joystick? I could pack it my laptop bag when I travel and when I'm on a flight I could pull it out for an hour or two of game play. Which brings me to my last point....
My only problem with games, applications, movies on my iPhone is they all kill the battery. Please Apple, do something about that. I shouldn't run the risk of completely draining the battery if I've had pretty light use for email, calendar and regular apps then watch 2 hours of video on my iPhone. I have one of those Kensington mini battery packs and it works good but I'd hope I could make it longer without a recharge.
The Nova / Halo like game looks good. I haven't played many FPS games on my iPhone 3Gs but did try the lite version of Terminator Salvation and thought the controls were pretty good and actually better than expected.
For games like Madden and heck, any other game that isn't really using the accelerometer, why can't Apple (or a 3rd party) develop a game pad that plugs in and/or uses bluetooth? I remember when OS 3 came out they were talking about hardware that could plugged into the phone. The example I remember was the cuff thing to take your blood pressure. The iPhone was used to display the pressure. So why not a game pad / joystick? I could pack it my laptop bag when I travel and when I'm on a flight I could pull it out for an hour or two of game play. Which brings me to my last point....
My only problem with games, applications, movies on my iPhone is they all kill the battery. Please Apple, do something about that. I shouldn't run the risk of completely draining the battery if I've had pretty light use for email, calendar and regular apps then watch 2 hours of video on my iPhone. I have one of those Kensington mini battery packs and it works good but I'd hope I could make it longer without a recharge.
at the current rate, i don't think the ipod touch will really replace the psp. games will have to change a little before it does
Apple can not focus on games for their macs. None of their computers have decent video cards. They have no desktop computers in their line up.
That and also because of the lack of tactile response it's hard to control player. Suffice to say (sadly) some games should not be ported to the iPhone. The virtual controller is a good idea that just doesn't work in the context of the game because the action happens so fast.
I don't know what you mean. I've played Modern Combat and the controls seem just fine to me. The same goes for other games as well which you wouldn't think would transfer well to touch screens. Also controllers are in development.
Contrary to what others may say it is a serious rival to the DS and PSP. The reason games aren't that deep right now is because there is only so much space on the iPhone. Once you start seeing 128GB iPhones (in two years) you will start to see those types of games. As it is how many hardcore portable gamers are there out there? Less than 1% of people who play games overall?
Size has little to do with it. Final Fantasy I on the PSP is only 200mb, Street Fighter Alpha 3 is only ~90mb. Pokemon (some of the biggest RPGs going) range from 8-128mb and take hundreds of hours to complete. DS games max at 128mb, so a 128gb iPhone isn't going to help much.
No, more than 1% of people who play games are hardcore gamers. Console sales figures would be so very different if true. Nice backpeddling though.
Street Fighter Alpha 3 is not an incredibly deep game (only in terms of frames and I doubt that means much on the PSP) and I'm a fighting game fan. Fighting games can be done for the iPhone as has been proven by Gameloft (just released one) and Namco suggesting that they will be bringing Tekken to the iPhone. As for Final Fantasy I on the PSP, it would be only 200mb considering it was developed for the Famicon in the 80s. You bring up a game developer like Square who exists in a different category. Square took a few years to come out with a FF for the PSP. Even then it was old FF games. Then they released this year a new FF game (Dissidia: Final Fantasy). The size of the game is 1.15GB. Square was testing out the waters with the PSP. Square is now developing games for the iPhone but they are again testing out the waters. Eventually you will see an FF on the iPhone.
If you want to make an argument for FFI, there is proof that there is some deep games on the iPhone with games like Myst (very deep and 500mb in size) or the just recently released Madden. EDIT: Also Zenonia has over 40+ hours of gameplay. These types of games will come. Right now a majority of games are by indie developers on the App Store. Indie developers can't afford to spend the amount of time and cost to develop a very deep game, just a fun one. Now Rockstar, Square, and Ubisoft are getting their feet wet by developing games for the iPhone. Once that they see there is a very lucrative market you will see their franchise games.
BTW, the UMD disc that was developed for the PSP holds 1.8 GB. There are games that make use of that space. I've never used a DS so I can't comment on it. If you have a game which is supposed to have nice graphics and deep gameplay, it will significantly raise the file size.
That's not what I said. How many hardcore portable gamers are there? Answer: Probably less than 1% of all gamers (including casual gamers).
Hey all! Being primarily a follower of the game industry as well as a huge Apple fan, I thought I might check out the discussion on Apple's foray into the world of interactive entertainment...
My opinion on the matter is a little complex. Suffice to say, though, while I think Apple will find success, it will not be at the expense of Nintendo or Sony/Microsoft. I think Apple's venture could be compared to YouTube vs. the film industry, both financially and qualitatively. Obviously, the two are almost like comparing apples and oranges, which is why I don't think there will be a "winner" per se, just different markets with different aims.
I do believe Sony will take a large hit from Apple though, at least in the handheld department.
Microsoft will clash with Apple, obviously, due to their need to attempt to dominate every computer/electronic market. I don't see Microsoft succeeding in the "Video Game YouTube" market, though, and will just continue doing what they've been doing up till now. Project Natal, in my mind, demonstrates Microsoft's lack of understanding about how these things work, and why they won't "get it".
I really don't want to see Apple become aggressive towards Nintendo. Satoru Iwata has mentioned he loves Apple and uses Macs and Apple products for all of his personal needs, but will not stand down should Apple force him to show his hand. I actually see Nintendo "sharing" the "Video Game YouTube" market with Apple in a sense. However, I think Nintendo's core philosophy and understanding of the medium and market will prove their immortality in the industry. As progressive and forward-thinking as Apple is, at least when it comes to games, Nintendo is always thinking two steps ahead of everyone else.
There's another element you're forgetting, though. (And I think it's what leads to a lot of misconceptions about the quality of Wii titles compared to 360/PS3 games.) The 'quality' factor, in addition to 'five-minute gameplay', is what makes the Wii stand out. A lot of people seem to take for granted that games with short play times must obviously lack depth or playability compared to games that demand ridiculous time investments, but the two elements are mutually exclusive.
Games like Brain Training, Wii Sports Resort, Wii Fit, the upcoming New Super Mario Bros. Wii, etc. are all good, well-designed games, in addition to providing short gameplay times.
Many iPhone games, however, are not good. There's an excess of quantity without quality, and I don't think that's enough to succeed. Really, the only exceptional game I've played has been Rolando, and even that has obvious inspiration from games like Loco Roco.
Consider that the Nintendo DS alone has about twice the install base of both the Xbox 360 and Playstation 3 COMBINED.
Nearly 110 million DS units and 60 million PSP units sold worldwide... I'd say that percentage is a lot more than 1%.
Also, what raggedjimmi said.
The rest of your argument doesn't make sense. A good game is not defined simply by its graphical fidelity. Good gameplay is what matters, and is why certain games can stand the test of time.
Fortunately, good gameplay doesn't require large amounts of storage space. That's like saying for a movie to have a really good plot, it needs to fit it on a Blu-Ray disc.
My opinion on the matter is a little complex. Suffice to say, though, while I think Apple will find success, it will not be at the expense of Nintendo or Sony/Microsoft. I think Apple's venture could be compared to YouTube vs. the film industry, both financially and qualitatively. Obviously, the two are almost like comparing apples and oranges, which is why I don't think there will be a "winner" per se, just different markets with different aims.
I do believe Sony will take a large hit from Apple though, at least in the handheld department.
Microsoft will clash with Apple, obviously, due to their need to attempt to dominate every computer/electronic market. I don't see Microsoft succeeding in the "Video Game YouTube" market, though, and will just continue doing what they've been doing up till now. Project Natal, in my mind, demonstrates Microsoft's lack of understanding about how these things work, and why they won't "get it".
I really don't want to see Apple become aggressive towards Nintendo. Satoru Iwata has mentioned he loves Apple and uses Macs and Apple products for all of his personal needs, but will not stand down should Apple force him to show his hand. I actually see Nintendo "sharing" the "Video Game YouTube" market with Apple in a sense. However, I think Nintendo's core philosophy and understanding of the medium and market will prove their immortality in the industry. As progressive and forward-thinking as Apple is, at least when it comes to games, Nintendo is always thinking two steps ahead of everyone else.
Speedy2 said:
There's another element you're forgetting, though. (And I think it's what leads to a lot of misconceptions about the quality of Wii titles compared to 360/PS3 games.) The 'quality' factor, in addition to 'five-minute gameplay', is what makes the Wii stand out. A lot of people seem to take for granted that games with short play times must obviously lack depth or playability compared to games that demand ridiculous time investments, but the two elements are mutually exclusive.
Games like Brain Training, Wii Sports Resort, Wii Fit, the upcoming New Super Mario Bros. Wii, etc. are all good, well-designed games, in addition to providing short gameplay times.
Many iPhone games, however, are not good. There's an excess of quantity without quality, and I don't think that's enough to succeed. Really, the only exceptional game I've played has been Rolando, and even that has obvious inspiration from games like Loco Roco.
str1f3 said:
Consider that the Nintendo DS alone has about twice the install base of both the Xbox 360 and Playstation 3 COMBINED.
Nearly 110 million DS units and 60 million PSP units sold worldwide... I'd say that percentage is a lot more than 1%.
Also, what raggedjimmi said.
The rest of your argument doesn't make sense. A good game is not defined simply by its graphical fidelity. Good gameplay is what matters, and is why certain games can stand the test of time.
Fortunately, good gameplay doesn't require large amounts of storage space. That's like saying for a movie to have a really good plot, it needs to fit it on a Blu-Ray disc.
This is really only the first step. While the graphics blow, this basically takes all the heat off Apple having to redesign the iPhone and they can simply ship more units via processor updates and thus, better games.
This is going to be a HUGE cash cow.
This is going to be a HUGE cash cow.
May be you should read this:Apple, slowing sales cause 66% profit loss for Nintendo
This is business. By virtue of the fact the OSX mobile can play games they are competitors.
Really the only good game is Rolando? Maybe you didn't see this:
Sony targets iPhone developers and low app prices for PSPgo
-or this Microsoft Offering iPhone Developers “Buckets of Money” to go Zune?
You can say that the iPhone doesn't have any good games but you are almost alone in that regard. Also App Store sales would say something different. It's funny that you can see Wii Fit as a great game with some unbelievable replay value but you don't think an iPhone game can have that yet I'm still playing Tap Tap Revenge a year after it has come out and it's also free.
Read first link. Nintendo does not cater to the hardcore gamer. The DS is a portable, casual gamers device. Nothing more. Some developers have made deep games but it is not Nintendo's focus or goal. One of the main reason the PSP was created was because it catered to the hardcore gamer and 'til this day pales in comparison in terms of sales to the DS because the majority of purchasers of these devices are casual gamers.
It is a ridiculous idea that graphics has no part in what gamers think of games. It is the first thing gamers ask about. Now gameplay is the most important part but when I look forward to future gaming on the iPhone I don't think of good games with 8-bit graphics. I think of games that have both graphics and gameplay. To do that requires large file sizes.
Now raggedjimi mentions Final Fantasy I (which has a small file size) and it took years for Square to even have a FF on the PSP. The first FF they released for the PSP was a mini-movie. Square just announced they are developing for the iPhone. There will eventually be a FF on the iPhone. Other major companies are following suit. Rockstar is releasing GTA on all three platforms.
The examples of games that were being mentioned were 10-25 years old with the exception of Pokemon (which is a kid's game). raggedjimmi also mentions SFA3. Well I tell that Namco says that they are developing Tekken for the iPhone.
Don't Apple also have a fund for iPhone app developers?
That's a silly thing to post. Even first party Nintendo titles cater to the hardcore crowd (Metroid, Zelda, Advance Wars). And then 3rd party titles like Final Fantasy, Castlevania, Nanostray, GTA (just looking at my own collection) are hardly casual titles either.
Then why is the DS outselling the PSP. Why did the Gameboy outsell every competitor it ever had. Why did the Amiga flop against the 16bit consoles. Why is the Wii outselling every other console ever. Why did the PS2 outsell everything last gen?
Comparative graphics actually do mean nothing. And the DS has proved that so long as the game is legible it doesn't matter the graphic quality. New Mario on the DS has 2D sprites, prerendered 3D and the occasional 3D model and looks basic compared to even Yoshi's Island, but it's one of the best selling DS titles.
But the dev time has nothing to do with the file size. You were making a point that iPhone games aren't big because of filesize problems, but the smallest iPod for a while has been the 8gb model. Yet there have been no big games. Early PSP games were also very large - look at Monster Hunter Freedom, the 2 GTA's, Final Fantasy Tactics or any of the other ports. Again all out very early in the PSP's life.
Of note the early PSP GTA games are much bigger and have more depth than the DS port the iPhone is getting.
They likely will. But it won't be for the better simply because of the controls, which you can't change on an iPhone.
Pokemon isn't just a kids game in the same way Mario or Zelda aren't. Have you played it? It's the simple most customisable and deep RPG on the market today. And Tekken on the iPhone, again it will be limited by the controls. You can't get pixel precise controls without a digital input (ie a dpad, face buttons), so chances are that will be simplified to be easily controlled.
And that's the problem with every iPhone game I've ever played. Compromises are made to get an established franchise or genre working with only touch controls.
You don't get it. People buy a capable iPod/iPhone anyway. They can play games with it. They won't buy another gadget for that purpose anymore. That "sure" market will die, just as the PDA market did.
The iPhone is already more powerful than PSP and DS. Give the game developers another year or two and you'll see "in-depth" games and hardware add-ons that will make those dedicated devices look like old junk.
And you really think that's all there will ever be? Or what?
I wonder who is blind here ...
The major game companies are just starting to develop big budget games.
I'll try not to say anything redundant. (Thanks jimmi!)
Do you actually follow these sorts of things, or did you just google for a news story that supported your argument?
Any major losses in profit in the past year have usually been due to the Wii having a weaker line-up (mostly because Nintendo's internal studios released their major titles the years before, and third parties not having stepped up to fill the gap in the interim), an overall flailing Japanese game market, and currency exchanges.
Most of these profit losses are typical and expected, and Nintendo already has plans for the following years. There's a reason why they have yet to lower their ridiculous forecasts.
Well, most electronic devices are in competition with one another in some form or another, but it's perfectly viable for companies to cater specific audiences or provide specific needs and not step on the toes of the others too terribly much. (See: Wii and 360/PS3, although I hate that analogy, but that's another story...)
Again, I see it as YouTube and the film industry, or something like that.
Second link doesn't work, and the first doesn't have anything to do with quality games, just business tactics. (Not only that, I was referencing the Wii's success, so why would you bring up Sony and Apple? That's a whole other can of worms...)
I'm probably also in the minority that didn't like "Crappy Summer Blockbuster X". (I think it was Transformers 2 this year...)
Just because certain games are selling or are popular, that doesn't mean they're good.
Again, I don't think Apple's quality control and development environment are going to allow them to intrude on, say, Nintendo's market. A plethora of small "hits" that don't aspire to be anything more than light entertainment on-the-go will, once again, create a "YouTube-esque" market.
(And yes, you'll get the occasional high-quality, ambitious iPhone game, just as you get the same from YouTube, but they'll be rare and far in between.)
Jimmi covered most everything else, but I'll just throw this bit in:
You're kidding yourself if you think this is going to be anything substantial.
iPhone Tekken : Tekken 6 :: iPhone MGS : MGS 4
I think that's the analogy syntax...
Do you actually follow these sorts of things, or did you just google for a news story that supported your argument?
Any major losses in profit in the past year have usually been due to the Wii having a weaker line-up (mostly because Nintendo's internal studios released their major titles the years before, and third parties not having stepped up to fill the gap in the interim), an overall flailing Japanese game market, and currency exchanges.
Most of these profit losses are typical and expected, and Nintendo already has plans for the following years. There's a reason why they have yet to lower their ridiculous forecasts.
Well, most electronic devices are in competition with one another in some form or another, but it's perfectly viable for companies to cater specific audiences or provide specific needs and not step on the toes of the others too terribly much. (See: Wii and 360/PS3, although I hate that analogy, but that's another story...)
Again, I see it as YouTube and the film industry, or something like that.
Second link doesn't work, and the first doesn't have anything to do with quality games, just business tactics. (Not only that, I was referencing the Wii's success, so why would you bring up Sony and Apple? That's a whole other can of worms...)
I'm probably also in the minority that didn't like "Crappy Summer Blockbuster X". (I think it was Transformers 2 this year...)
Just because certain games are selling or are popular, that doesn't mean they're good.
Again, I don't think Apple's quality control and development environment are going to allow them to intrude on, say, Nintendo's market. A plethora of small "hits" that don't aspire to be anything more than light entertainment on-the-go will, once again, create a "YouTube-esque" market.
(And yes, you'll get the occasional high-quality, ambitious iPhone game, just as you get the same from YouTube, but they'll be rare and far in between.)
Jimmi covered most everything else, but I'll just throw this bit in:
You're kidding yourself if you think this is going to be anything substantial.
iPhone Tekken : Tekken 6 :: iPhone MGS : MGS 4
I think that's the analogy syntax...
I don't believe that is actually true. Liberty City Stories and Vice City Stories were amazing for their time because it largely recreated the PS2 environment on the PSP. But, I don't believe the story or missions were judged to be as good as previous console version though, particularly Vice City Stories.
Chinatown Wars uses the GTA IV rendition of Liberty City and is surprisingly accurate. (http://www.gamesradar.com/f/liberty-city-landmarks-gta-iv-vs-chinatown-wars/a-2009040194452447037) Even without Albany, I think the map size in Chinatown Wars is actually larger than Liberty City Stories. Reviews also seem to indicate that Chinatown Wars has compelling story and missions with review websites generally giving Chinatown Wars higher scores than Liberty City Stories which in turn scored higher than Vice City Stories. Chinatown Wars is definitely a different presentation of GTA and I personally would have preferred a 3D version, but it is by no means a miniaturized or reduced GTA in scope or content.
Rockstar's name does hold a lot of clout with gamers and developers and the fact that Rockstar sees fit to put GTA Chinatown Wars on the DS, the PSP, and the iPhone/Touch does mean something. The 3 gaming devices may be very different, but Rockstar now feels they are all basically equal in deserving AAA developer attention. Afterall, despite being a more "hardcore" platform, the PSP is getting the 2.5D Chinatown Wars just like the DS and iPhone/Touch. Assuming GTA does well on iPhone, which is very likely, it can only be a sign of more things to come.
Admittedly, the iPhone doesn't compete directly with portables that have physical controls. It is important to note that the PSP hit 50 million units in lifetime sales earlier this year and iPhone/iPod Touch was just announced to have reached the 50 million units sold benchmark. Granted not every iPhone/Touch owner plays games or the same types of games as PSP or DS users, but virtual controls have improved to a point where they are suitable not only for the casual gamer but arguable the average gamer as well. With the iPhone/Touch growth rate exceeding that of the PSP and DS, I think Sony and Nintendo should be watching closely to make sure they aren't funneled into the the hardcore-only market, which may be lucrative, but has smaller numbers. Afterall, if your cell phone or mp3 player, which you are likely to have on you more often, can satisfy the majority of your portable gaming needs, the likelihood of you carrying a separate dedicated portable gaming device is reduced. Especially in the case of games like GTA Chinatown Wars where the content is the same and it's just a tradeoff between physical controls and carrying one less device.
It'd be very interesting to see how Rockstar prices the iPhone version compared to the $40 PSP version and $35 DS version. If anyone can reverse the downward price pressure in the App Store by delivering enough content to justify $20+ game prices, it'd certainly be Rockstar.