Apple's Focus on iPhone OS 4 Diverting Resources From Mac OS X 10.7?

[greg400]

Well, some of the machines at my university for example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sCscZV8Gu4

(note, this is not an example of a complex UI, just of the ergonomics of the interaction device.)

They are comfortable to use, for both adults and children (they're being developed for schools).

I'm sorry but if you're going to show me a demo of someone having to stand up in order to use it properly then you have flat out failed. How does this counteract any of my arguments about fatigue? Now your legs AND your arms will get tired?

Ok, you wanted an example of a strawman. This is one. I make a point, and you don't rebut the point I made but rather another point that looks superficially similar. My point was that the mouse isn't consistent with scale-up, which is what you were arguing before. You've now changed the argument to one about long-term use. Yet, you're still ignoring my points that with an appropriate setup your arms will probably not be significantly more tired than they would be if you'd been driving a mouse around. You've still got to move your arms around, and the fine muscle control of your hand position, that mice tend to need, can be more tiring than overall grosser muscle control.

Lol

You're acting like it takes some amazing amount of effort to move a mouse back and forth a couple of inches.

Oh and I clearly implied fatigue when I mentioned the screen size for the first time.

By All-in-one I mean 'all-in-one computer', like how the iMac is described, where the display includes the machine. You'd have a computer-containing display/interaction-surface that could be raised or lowered as you see fit and reangled. You just sit that unit on your (normal) desk.

I know exactly what an AIO is. I own one. The screen is not that adjustable and depending on the height of your desk/chair the results with multitouch could be disastrous.

And I agree with that. But that doesn't mean that smaller motions are less tiring. It really depends on the precision required by which muscles.

So then one begs the question... why take that chance?

I've said this above, but it bears repeating; a strawman argument is where the arguer attacks an argument that is superficially similar to, but distinct from, the argument they're ostensibly attacking. It isn't about skipping over arguments so much as misinterpreting them.

I know exactly what it means. I've already refuted your first claim of this.

 

[Arnia]

I'm sorry but if you're going to show me a demo of someone having to stand up in order to use it properly then you have flat out failed. How does this counteract any of my arguments about fatigue? Now your legs AND your arms will get tired?

You don't have to stand up to use it properly. That is simply a function of the FTIR implementation of multitouch that unit uses. Units which use capacitative multitouch, or other mechanisms, can be as thin as most flat panel displays. These could just sit on a desk, at a nice seated height, at an adjustable angle.

Lol

You're acting like it takes some amazing amount of effort to move a mouse back and forth a couple of inches.

Oh and I clearly implied fatigue when I mentioned the screen size for the first time.

You may have implied that fatigue was a factor, but the thrust of the point that I got was precision.

I know exactly what an AIO is. I own one. The screen is not that adjustable and depending on the height of your desk/chair the results with multitouch could be disastrous.

That is simply a function of that particular AIO's design. It is nothing inherent to the concept of an AIO.

So then one begs the question... why take that chance?

I don't believe I'm taking any chances. If the usability is poor, it won't make it to market in significant numbers. I'm not an early-adopter sort of person. I wait and see and try before passing judgement either way. I have tried multitouch and I like it and I find it a much nicer way to interact with a system. However, I'll still wait to see how any particular implementation of the ideas performs before buying it.

I know exactly what it means. I've already refuted your first claim of this.

How exactly have you refuted my claim? An assertion that you're not making strawmen is not a refutation. I even indicated an exact situation where you did make a strawman, and you glossed over it with nary a mention.

 

[gunraidan]

Ever since 10.6.2 Snow Leopard has been rock solid. With the current 10.6.3 it's the most stable OS I've ever used. That said I really can't wait until 10.7 comes out. OS X needs to get back on being on the cutting edge of OS features.

 

[greg400]

You don't have to stand up to use it properly. That is simply a function of the FTIR implementation of multitouch that unit uses. Units which use capacitative multitouch, or other mechanisms, can be as thin as most flat panel displays. These could just sit on a desk, at a nice seated height, at an adjustable angle.

Right, so you expect to sit down and use those properly? I guess if you're looking for a good stretch...

You may have implied that fatigue was a factor, but the thrust of the point that I got was precision.

Precision and fatigue are one the same. One has an adverse effect on the other.

That is simply a function of that particular AIO's design. It is nothing inherent to the concept of an AIO.

So your point is... ?

I don't believe I'm taking any chances. If the usability is poor, it won't make it to market in significant numbers. I'm not an early-adopter sort of person. I wait and see and try before passing judgement either way. I have tried multitouch and I like it and I find it a much nicer way to interact with a system. However, I'll still wait to see how any particular implementation of the ideas performs before buying it.

So you have had barely any long term interaction yet here you are defending it to the death...

How exactly have you refuted my claim? An assertion that you're not making strawmen is not a refutation. I even indicated an exact situation where you did make a strawman, and you glossed over it with nary a mention.

Okay buddy, whatever helps you sleep at night considering the fact that you've run out of every card you've tried to pull.

 

[Airforcekid]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 3_1_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/528.18 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Mobile/7E18 Safari/528.16)

What could they realy add? A second dock would be nice or more security but both can be done 3rd party in 10.6.

 

[Arnia]

Right, so you expect to sit down and use those properly? I guess if you're looking for a good stretch...

These are used by primary school children; that's ages 4 to 11.

Precision and fatigue are one the same. One has an adverse effect on the other.

I'd like to point out this is not the definition of identity. Other factors can mitigate problems for both sides. It isn't as simple as a single issue.

So your point is... ?

A correction of a misunderstanding you seem to be making. You say that AIOs aren't adjustable as a criticism to me saying that you could make a touchscreen AIO that was adjustable. I point out that there is nothing in the concept of an AIO that makes it inherently unadjustable. You then try and brush off the point.

So you have had barely any long term interaction yet here you are defending it to the death...

Not what I said. I said that I would wait and see whether a particular implementation is any good (remember, not all implementations of an idea are of equal quality or usability) before buying it. I have used research multitouch and I see the potential of a high-quality commercial implementation.

Okay buddy, whatever helps you sleep at night considering the fact that you've run out of every card you've tried to pull.

That doesn't even make any sense as a response.

 

[greg400]

These are used by primary school children; that's ages 4 to 11.

I'm sure they are the only ones that wouldn't notice the buggy animations for this great "multitouch" device.

A correction of a misunderstanding you seem to be making. You say that AIOs aren't adjustable as a criticism to me saying that you could make a touchscreen AIO that was adjustable. I point out that there is nothing in the concept of an AIO that makes it inherently unadjustable. You then try and brush off the point.

Yes, I just completely forgot the iMac G4 existed right? How about you stop being a condescending little prick and come up with valid arguments. Even if the screen was adjustable you still have nothing to rest your hands on, meaning the fatigue problem still persists.

Not what I said. I said that I would wait and see whether a particular implementation is any good (remember, not all implementations of an idea are of equal quality or usability) before buying it. I have used research multitouch and I see the potential of a high-quality commercial implementation.

You said you'd "wait and try it" meanwhile here you are preaching about how great it is. You see a problem with this?

That doesn't even make any sense as a response.

Of course it doesn't, because you just want to keep making up these "strawhats" that are non existent because you don't know when something is obviously implied.

 

[gunraidan]

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 3_1_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/528.18 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0 Mobile/7E18 Safari/528.16)

What could they realy add? A second dock would be nice or more security but both can be done 3rd party in 10.6.

- The ability to close programs in Exposé and Spaces
- Improve the Preview
- Improve the Finder
-...I'm sure Apple will think of something.

 

[coleridge78]

Of course it doesn't, because you just want to keep making up these "strawhats" that are non existent because you don't know when something is obviously implied.

"Strawhats," indeed. Thank you, please drive thru.

 

[Arnia]

I'm sure they are the only ones that wouldn't notice the buggy animations for this great "multitouch" device.

What does the quality of the animation have to do with the ergonomics? The point is that a very young child can still comfortably use the device. Saying that you'd have to stretch uncomfortably is therefore incorrect. You may be able to make the point that adults with long arms could be uncomfortable due to the opposite, except I have much longer arms than average and I found it comfortable.

Yes, I just completely forgot the iMac G4 existed right? How about you stop being a condescending little prick and come up with valid arguments. Even if the screen was adjustable you still have nothing to rest your hands on, meaning the fatigue problem still persists.

Uncalled for and offensive. I'm genuinely trying to understand why you believe what you do. I am not looking for a fight, just more knowledge.

Anyway, it was you who said that AIOs weren't adjustable. I was responding to that point. What about my arguments is invalid?

Regarding the fatigue problem, the screen can be used as a rest, or the bezel of the screen can be large and used as a side rest. Not every part of the screen
has to be active to gestures at all times; only the bits with content on. I've seen plenty of solutions to this, so it is an addressed problem (even if you don't know how).

You said you'd "wait and try it" meanwhile here you are preaching about how great it is. You see a problem with this?

Are you selectively choosing bits of my sentences? I've already addressed this. I said that I'd wait and try a particular commercial implementation before buying that implementation. I can't buy the research prototypes I've played with. I can wait for a commercial implementation and then evaluate that. The research prototypes were great and the potential for this in the commercial sector is obvious, assuming a good implementation is developed there.

Of course it doesn't, because you just want to keep making up these "strawhats" that are non existent because you don't know when something is obviously implied.

No, it doesn't make sense because there is no logical connection between the bit you're replying to and your reply. There is also no logical connection between the parts of the reply. I've never had any 'cards' to play, because I wasn't playing a game. I was trying to understand your position. The strawmen were impeding this because they changed the nature of the argument every reply making it very difficult to understand what you actually believe and how and why it differs from what my experience up to now has led me to believe. I asked you to try and stop making them so we could actually understand each other. I've been trying to assume good faith here.

As a final point, could you please be more courteous? I've found the ill-mannered remarks quite unnecessary. Would you treat me like this if we were having this debate in person?

 

[twoodcc]

well i guess i'm not that surprised, since this isn't the first time. but i am disappointed

 

[jaw04005]

In The New York Times Oct. 22, 2007, Jobs is quoted:

Of course we believe that statement as much as anything Jobs says. Subject to change, denial, or lame excuse at any time.

Well, that’s happening. It’s just happening with iPhone OS instead of Mac OS X. I sort of feel like Apple already took a “break” from Mac OS X with 10.6 Snow Leopard. It’s time to ramp it up again.

 

[backdraft]

They should have bought Sun, all those engineers working on Solaris. Now thanks to Oracle it will die

Maybe Apple can hire the Sun engineers that are leaving due to the Oracle acquisition.

Hire more people!

 

[backdraft]

I would just be happy if they port FreeBSD Jails over, PF (Firewall) and the new routing architecture (http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news/article.php/3835746).

You're using the wrong OS. You want Windows. If you need all these things, then you do not understand Apple.

 

[2992]

i couldn't agree more. its time for mouse and keyboard to go screw themselves to put it simply. going from winxp to tiger felt so clean. as much as it pains me to say, win7 has left any version of leopard in the dust in terms of UI AND USABILTY. But even win7 isn't where i want it all to be.
The college professor who discovered radio waves back in the 1800's said that it is so completely useless that it may not even exist. Oh how wrong was he? I don't understand how so many people hold only to what they know, and eventhough they look into the future they can't see a computer without a keyboard and mouse. Iphone os is not quite there for large screens but it's definitely on the right track. I wouldn't pay a lot of money for the ipad as it is, but i'd sell my computer, tv and game console for a 30" ipad with a slightly updated OS to what is currently known as iphone os 4. Files, folders and files systems..... NO END USER SHOULD EVER HEAR OF OR DEAL WITH THE FILE SYSTEM. No one should ever have to remember where they saved something. (please don't bring up search or spotlight because after 4 years of using mac, i still haven't found where to specify in osx which files, folders or drives i want spotlight to index, it still only searches my main drive, not all 4 drives).
The same way adobe has neglected flash, apple has neglected the usability of leopard. Yes i went there. Apple needs to work on the user interface.

While i'm here complaining... who do i take issue with that i don't have smooth scroling on webpages using ANY browser? I've tried omniweb, camino, firefox, opera, safari, ie, and chrome (all with smooth scrolling enabled in the settings) and none of them can compare with the smooth scrolling on the iphone. I have 8 cpus and a HD video card at it's disposal and none of them use more than 2% cpu for scrolling eventhough i have 90% idle cpu. I demand that scrolling be implemented at the OS level with full hardware and software acceleration. I get dizzy skim reading web pages when scrolling.

I so agree with you on this one: I'm also getting dizzy while browsing and scrolling the web. I'm moving my eyes where the page shall scroll and then waiting for Safari to actually render the page. Not to mention how slow Safari is when having 5+ tabs..

 

[AidenShaw]

Maybe Apple can hire the Sun engineers that are leaving due to the Oracle acquisition.

Wouldn't help - they're all big-endian.

 

[2992]

Wish List:

13) Allow different desktop backgrounds on each Space

That'll be really nice to have: I'm enough of eyeing the upper right corner to see which Space I'm now.

 

[HLdan]

I still consider Tiger to be the best version of OS X to date. Snow Leopard is worse than Leopard in my experience.

Right, in YOUR experience. You need to stop trashing Snow Leopard and install and use it rather than give your opinions on it as if nobody else's matters. Snow Leopard has been great! I have 4 Macs and have experienced no issues with it. Since 10.6.2 it's been the most solid OS in OS X's history.

 

[macintoshtoffy]

Wouldn't help - they're all big-endian.

Bah, prejudice against Indians who happen to big!

*macintoshtoffy launches an anti-descrimination law suit!*

 

[BTW]

Hire more people!

I used to think that, but the reality is they don't have to. Developers get burnt-out working on the same product year after year. Switching between developing operating systems and apps for different devices keeps things fresh. I'm sure the iWork team appreciate the new perspectives they gained in developing for the iPad. Because of their release for the iPad we won't see a new version for the Mac until 2011. That's really fine with me. I think that team need to expand iWork.com before going back to work on iWork 2011.

I would rather see Apple come out with more apps (server and client) than create a whole new Mac operating system (OSX 10.7 that is). Snow Leopard can handle the wait. We have iLife, iWork, Final Cut, but Apple's pitch for HTML5 demands a new designer suite of software to challenge Adobe's offerings.

I'd also like to see Apple buy-up some game developers and really deliver on offering their own spin on gaming the pushes the hardware to the limits thereby challenging their internal terms to deliver ever higher performing devices.

 

[applesupergeek]

The whole problem is 10.6 is only barely tolerable now with the release of .3, and 10.7 won't be worth a crap till 10.7.3 which is YEARS off.

Rocketman

I really don't know where you get that... if that's your impression fine, but to generalize and speak categorically without any sample of how things are for everyone, well...

My impression is that .6 is the most robust and solid OS, and that it has matured very nicely in .6.3, despite an expected slightly bumpy start and teething problems. And I 've seen very very few people who would disagree with that. The transition was almost unnoticeable for most users, that's how smoothly it went.

Now lets contrast this to the debacles of vista, 7 and the catastrophic launch of the latest ubuntu to put things into perspective. When more than 75% of pcs won't even switch from xp because they consider vista and 7 a bunch of bloatware that won't even run on their machines, it's a tremendous achievement by apple that they get 75% and more of people to upgrade to snow leopard in less than a few months. Who's done that before? Nobody. In the pc world they prepare en mass for whatever woes a new OS will bring, and are very, very cautious at any update, and apple has been transitioning so seamlessly to OS X versions for this whole past decade.

Apple shouldn't be compared to themselves for standards but to what the others are doing in the industry.

Since these forums have a lot of pc users too, it's a shame to leave impressions like these, when both you and I know, that the usability experience between OS X and whatever crap MSFT has out these days is incomparable.

 

[DMann]

I really don't know where you get that... if that's your impression fine, but to generalize and speak categorically without any sample of how things are for everyone, well...

My impression is that .6 is the most robust and solid OS, and that it has matured very nicely in .6.3, despite an expected slightly bumpy start and teething problems. And I 've seen very very few people who would disagree with that. The transition was almost unnoticeable for most users, that's how smoothly it went.

Now lets contrast this to the debacles of vista, 7 and the catastrophic launch of the latest ubuntu to put things into perspective. When more than 75% of pcs won't even switch from xp because they consider vista and 7 a bunch of bloatware that won't even run on their machines, it's a tremendous achievement by apple that they get 75% and more of people to upgrade to snow leopard in less than a few months. Who's done that before? Nobody. In the pc world they prepare en mass for whatever woes a new OS will bring, and are very, very cautious at any update, and apple has been transitioning so seamlessly to OS X versions for this whole past decade.

Apple shouldn't be compared to themselves for standards but to what the others are doing in the industry.

Since these forums have a lot of pc users too, it's a shame to leave impressions like these, when both you and I know, that the usability experience between OS X and whatever crap MSFT has out these days is incomparable.

True, there really is no comparison.

SL has been extremely well received by OSX users, and has been remarkably responsive, stable, and, for the most part, free of complication.

By contrast, 7ista has wooed a mere fraction of XP users, as the majority of them have seen no compelling enhancements/reason(s) to upgrade.

Being that 10.6 has only been out for less than 8 months, if we were to see a preview of 10.7 as early as June, 2011, this would remain consistent with the OSX release cycle.

If the slick interface of Logic Pro reveals any foreshadowing of the upcoming UI, I'd be more than content on waiting until 2012-13 for a highly refined 10.7.

____________________
-dc
Gardening - Have you talked about it with your vegetarian friends, your vegetarian colleagues and your vegetarian relatives? Why not?

 

[opeter]

What could they realy add? A second dock would be nice or more security but both can be done 3rd party in 10.6.

- Merge function (and a dialog asking if you want overwrite, keep etc. files)
- Windows resizing not only from one corner
- Fonts resizing in dpi or % (like in Windows, Linux etc.), especially for older people
- Show different informations with cursor on top of a folder

etc.

 

[greg400]

What does the quality of the animation have to do with the ergonomics? The point is that a very young child can still comfortably use the device. Saying that you'd have to stretch uncomfortably is therefore incorrect. You may be able to make the point that adults with long arms could be uncomfortable due to the opposite, except I have much longer arms than average and I found it comfortable.

Right, once again you contradict pretty much every statement you previously made about it being comfortable. It's not going to be comfortable for anyone after a certain period of time. Here you are trying to convince me that you can do work on these things for 5 hours.

Anyway, it was you who said that AIOs weren't adjustable. I was responding to that point. What about my arguments is invalid

Regarding the fatigue problem, the screen can be used as a rest, or the bezel of the screen can be large and used as a side rest. Not every part of the screen
has to be active to gestures at all times; only the bits with content on. I've seen plenty of solutions to this, so it is an addressed problem (even if you don't know how).

No matter how many times you can turn the screen it will still not be comfortable, and that still would NOT change the fatigue problem. Resting your hands on a bezel around the screen? It's very clear all you're basing this on is a tiny iPad because there's no way that would work on a device that actually has decent sized screen that floats in the air. Come back to me after you've used one of those mediocre touch devices at your school for 5 hours straight actually trying to do something productive rather than dragging around a couple of words.

Are you selectively choosing bits of my sentences? I've already addressed this. I said that I'd wait and try a particular commercial implementation before buying that implementation. I can't buy the research prototypes I've played with. I can wait for a commercial implementation and then evaluate that. The research prototypes were great and the potential for this in the commercial sector is obvious, assuming a good implementation is developed there.

So all you are doing is assuming things. That's what your entire argument is based upon, assumption. You are assuming that this will turn out half decent. You are assuming that this is actually going to be useful.

No, it doesn't make sense because there is no logical connection between the bit you're replying to and your reply. There is also no logical connection between the parts of the reply. I've never had any 'cards' to play, because I wasn't playing a game. I was trying to understand your position. The strawmen were impeding this because they changed the nature of the argument every reply making it very difficult to understand what you actually believe and how and why it differs from what my experience up to now has led me to believe. I asked you to try and stop making them so we could actually understand each other. I've been trying to assume good faith here.

I've made my problems very clear with multitouch but you just aren't having it. The fatigue after a decent period of work would be atrocious. You are basing your entire argument on a couple of minutes you had with some multitouch devices at a school. You have still yet to shown me a actual comfortable solution for an adult human being where their hands to not have to stay up in the air and where they don't have to hunch over. I don't have to raise my arms just to use my mouse.

As a final point, could you please be more courteous? I've found the ill-mannered remarks quite unnecessary. Would you treat me like this if we were having this debate in person?

It's getting quite irritating having to respond again with the same exact things when you have no response for them. You are just making an argument for the sake of making an argument.

 

[satkin2]

I'm not in the know or anything like that, but it looks to me like he's trying to get out of his earlier statement.

Apple is a large company, with fingers in many pies. There is no reason why they should divert resources from one team in order to get OS4.0 out. They are big enough for seperate teams both with the expertise to accomplish what they are working towards.