Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
OS X can't die. Also, the mobile platform depends on OS X. Why? Xcode. How else are you going to write apps for the iPhone, iPod, or iPad?

With the adoption of the iPad as well as the iPhone, more and more people who love to develop for these beautiful devices need a mac to develop for it.
 
Good god, hand fatigue and back pain are the first that come to mind. Imagine editing on that for 5 hours? Now that would be total hell, but I guess that isn't your main concern as long as it "just works" as in does the exact same thing that Windows Movie Maker can do only slower.

Those videos arent even that complex as far as 3D modelling goes.
 
But in the case of a mouse you get a tool that is more precise than the aforementioned multitouch no matter what the case in this particular situation.

I do not think you do. Are you saying that a device that you move around with your whole hand is more precise than a direct manipulation pen interface where you can use normal hand-eye co-ordination and fingertip accuracy? As I said, the concept of multitouch doesn't just mean 'fingers' any more. It has become the catch-all for direct manipulation UIs. The key point with multitouch is cutting out indirection.

Still does not change the fatigue issue no matter what screen size you are working on. The larger it is when using a mouse the better for editing and viewability. The larger the screen is when multitouch the harder it gets to control and the more cumbersome it becomes to use.

If you use the same distance of motion as you scale-up a WIMP interface, precision rapidly drops. I'd guess (although I'd like to see studies on this) that precision would drop with the square of the scale-up. Wasn't the point where WIMP was superior was its alleged precision?

And what exactly does this have to do with my complaints about dealing with a clumsy interface and hand fatigue? If you can show me where multitouch would in any way be superior to a mouse in work such as Final Cut, Motion, etc, then i'll concede defeat. So far all you have done is shown shoddy alternatives and very vague ideas that would not work as well.

You're assuming, yet again, that the interfaces would be the same. This is a strawman Of course direct manipulation would be awful for Final Cut Pro or Motion as they stand. The interface will probably have to be torn up and started again in order to fit the entirely new UI scheme. This is reasonable if the benefits are great enough to outweigh retraining costs for those who have been trained on the old way. I believe they are, and lots of HCI researchers agree.
 
OS X can't die. Also, the mobile platform depends on OS X. Why? Xcode. How else are you going to write apps for the iPhone, iPod, or iPad?

With the adoption of the iPad as well as the iPhone, more and more people who love to develop for these beautiful devices need a mac to develop for it.

XCode is ported to Windows or the iPad.

Problem Solved.
 
Good god, hand fatigue and back pain are the first that come to mind. Imagine editing on that for 5 hours? Now that would be total hell, but I guess that isn't your main concern as long as it "just works" as in does the exact same thing that Windows Movie Maker can do only slower.

Again, that is a matter of ergonomics. He was a bachelors student writing his dissertation. That doesn't exactly give you time or budget to build a total solution, or even a particularly full-featured solution. There are ergonomic solutions to this however, such as lectern-style setups which mirror old-school drafting desks.

The point of the videos was to try and show you that there are alternative UI concepts to WIMP. Please don't make yet another strawman about my preferences with regards functionality.
 
This is something that shouldn't surprise anyone. It's clear that Apple views the iPad as the next step to modern computing. This is a battle they can't afford to lose. The iPad is meant to eventually become the Mac OS for everyone and a way to defeat the Windows (or the future Google) monopoly.

The mouse/keyboard metaphor has passed its time and Jobs understands that. From here on out there will be lengthier updates to the MacOS and you will see a quicker evolution of the iPhone OS to support the fundamental capabilities of the MacOS.

But if apple get's to M$ levels then that locked in app store will have to go.
 
With $40 BILLION in petty cash, maybe Steve could afford to higher a few more workers and thus keep OSX on schedule and even help support the economy in a small way in the process? Nope. Better to delay support for Macs. Besides, you'll probably be getting a version of the iPhone OS for your home Mac in a few years anyway. Steve will say it's a better end user experience with less headaches and hassles if Apple controls what software is allowed on the platform and how it's made with what tools and don't forget that 30% cut on all profits straight to Apple. Don't worry. You'll like it better that way. Firefox users will get used to using Safari instead. Forced ads (instead of ad blockers) will be something to get used to also. Just remember that Steve knows what's best for you.
 
I do not think you do. Are you saying that a device that you move around with your whole hand is more precise than a direct manipulation pen interface where you can use normal hand-eye co-ordination and fingertip accuracy? As I said, the concept of multitouch doesn't just mean 'fingers' any more. It has become the catch-all for direct manipulation UIs. The key point with multitouch is cutting out indirection.
Thanks for bringing up another problem with multitouch. When compiling these apps are you going to make them work well with multitouch for fingers, multitouch for pens, multitouch for larger screens, multitouch for smaller screens... the list goes on. The amount of variables you have with multitouch make it a pain in the ass to develop for. As for your pen remark though, not very useful except for niche situations.

If you use the same distance of motion as you scale-up a WIMP interface, precision rapidly drops. I'd guess (although I'd like to see studies on this) that precision would drop with the square of the scale-up. Wasn't the point where WIMP was superior was its alleged precision?
Uhh, no because you are not using your hands to reach across a larger screen. Two completely different things.

You're assuming, yet again, that the interfaces would be the same. This is a strawman Of course direct manipulation would be awful for Final Cut Pro or Motion as they stand. The interface will probably have to be torn up and started again in order to fit the entirely new UI scheme. This is reasonable if the benefits are great enough to outweigh retraining costs for those who have been trained on the old way. I believe they are, and lots of HCI researchers agree.
Well the day where i'm forced to hold my hands up at my screen like a dumbass for 5 hours straight is the day I look for a new job. I'm sure you really don't care because it's not going to be your problem.

Again, that is a matter of ergonomics. He was a bachelors student writing his dissertation. That doesn't exactly give you time or budget to build a total solution, or even a particularly full-featured solution. There are ergonomic solutions to this however, such as lectern-style setups which mirror old-school drafting desks.
Great, now I'm going to have to buy a brand new desk that doesn't fit anywhere and still doesn't make a perfect job for it just to make those multitouch apps the least bit useable. Sounds wonderful.

The point of the videos was to try and show you that there are alternative UI concepts to WIMP. Please don't make yet another strawman about my preferences with regards functionality.
There is no preference here. Anyone who would choose to work with that multi touch device showed off must love the feeling of pain.
 
With $40 BILLION in petty cash, maybe Steve could afford to higher a few more workers and thus keep OSX on schedule and even help support the economy in a small way in the process? Nope. Better to delay support for Macs. Besides, you'll probably be getting a version of the iPhone OS for your home Mac in a few years anyway. Steve will say it's a better end user experience with less headaches and hassles if Apple controls what software is allowed on the platform and how it's made with what tools and don't forget that 30% cut on all profits straight to Apple. Don't worry. You'll like it better that way. Firefox users will get used to using Safari instead. Forced ads (instead of ad blockers) will be something to get used to also. Just remember that Steve knows what's best for you.
That kind of lock in is at monopoly levels and just drive people to building there own systems and useing windows / linux
 
I know you guys are talking about multitouch but a lot of creative proffesoinals prefer a good quality Pen Tablet than a mouse.

I don't think multi-touch would fit be able to perform the fiddly movements needed to use a lot of pro apps. Hell, multitouch isnt really that suited to code either. I'd hate using quartz composer only using my fingers.

Actually, there is nothing in the HCI concept of multitouch that precludes using tools, as I've already pointed out. The shift is mostly about direct manipulation and tangibility. Multitouch vs the notion of tools is false dichotomy. It is better to state that the dichotomy is between direct manipulation (with your fingers, with a stylus, with a TUI object, etc.) and indirect manipulation (with a mouse or a normal tablet on a WIMP interface).

Again though, there seems to be this unspoken assumption that we'll be using the same UIs for these pro apps, just using our fingers. This is a bad assumption. The UIs will likely be radically different to suit the more direct style of manipulation since the 'vocabularies' used in WIMP and DM are very different. They'll be less 'control panelly' and more artistic given what I've seen, removing a layer of separation between you and your creation. Putting my artist hat on, I am very excited by this and the possibility of feeling even more connected to my artistic work.
 
Thanks for bringing up another problem with multitouch. When compiling these apps are you going to make them work well with multitouch for fingers, multitouch for pens, multitouch for larger screens, multitouch for smaller screens... the list goes on. The amount of variables you have with multitouch make it a pain in the ass to develop for. As for your pen remark though, not very useful except for precise situations.

Assuming that we still have the concept of 'apps' rather than just tools we apply to any content type that matches... it depends on the application. ZUIs may be useful in tackling some of this problem, but I think you're overstating it regardless. There are already ways to abstract this out, where social effects don't constrain the problem for you.

You also seem to be trying to have it both ways in this discussion so I ask you, for clarity's sake, what properties do you want from an interaction mechanism? Simply 'be like a mouse' or its variants is not an acceptable answer here. I want to know exactly what properties you want. We can decide whether these properties are good or misguided and then we can decide which UI concepts have these properties. Nice and rational.

Uhh, no because you are not using your hands to reach across a larger screen. Two completely different things.

You have previously made a big deal about precision, and I've shown that in the situation you are describing as one where the mouse is great you either have the same increase in physical effort as the display increases in size or you lose precision. This shows that your original point missed an important trade-off.

Well the day where i'm forced to hold my hands up at my screen like a dumbass for 5 hours straight is the day I look for a new job. I'm sure you really don't care because it's not going to be your problem.

Strawman again. No one said you'd have to hold your hands up at your screen. In the same way, it would have been ridiculous to assume that you'd have to shovel coal into an electric locomotive. Different technologies have different ergonomics.

And who said it wasn't going to be my problem? I may be doing a PhD, but I make most of my money doing graphic design, UI design and visualisation design. I have a lot invested in the improvement of artistic user interfaces.

Great, now I'm going to have to buy a brand new desk that doesn't fit anywhere and still doesn't make a perfect job for it just to make those multitouch apps the least bit useable. Sounds wonderful.

Will you? Where did I say anything that talked about a piece of furniture. I was talking about the angles and posture involved. That could be done with an all-in-one computer.

There is no preference here. Anyone who would choose to work with that multi touch device showed off must love the feeling of pain.

You say having not used a professional-grade direct manipulation UI, nor in fact rebutting my points with more than unsubstantiated assertions or strawmen. I really want to know why you believe these things, but you have to actually explain it to me rather than just making statements that are either logical fallacies or presented without evidence. Help me understand the logic behind your opinions.
 
You also seem to be trying to have it both ways in this discussion so I ask you, for clarity's sake, what properties do you want from an interaction mechanism? Simply 'be like a mouse' or its variants is not an acceptable answer here. I want to know exactly what properties you want. We can decide whether these properties are good or misguided and then we can decide which UI concepts have these properties. Nice and rational.
To be quite honest I have no problem with the current mouse especially if the only other "alternative" requires you flailing your arms around or having your back hunched over. When something superior than the mouse arrives, I will be all over it, whatever it may be. Right now, all I see multitouch as, is a worse alternative.


You have previously made a big deal about precision, and I've shown that in the situation you are describing as one where the mouse is great you either have the same increase in physical effort as the display increases in size or you lose precision. This shows that your original point missed an important trade-off.
Err... what? When you are using a mouse the largeness of the screen does not matter because your hands do not have to interact with the screen. When you are using Multitouch on a large screen the fatigue sets in quickly. I don't understand how this is that tough of a concept to understand?

Strawman again. No one said you'd have to hold your hands up at your screen. In the same way, it would have been ridiculous to assume that you'd have to shovel coal into an electric locomotive. Different technologies have different ergonomics.
So if i'm not going to be holding my hands up am I going to be hunched over? Because I've yet to see a comfortable solution with any of these multitouch devices.

And who said it wasn't going to be my problem? I may be doing a PhD, but I make most of my money doing graphic design, UI design and visualisation design. I have a lot invested in the improvement of artistic user interfaces.
Right, so you're all for these products that induce terrible ergonomics?


Will you? Where did I say anything that talked about a piece of furniture. I was talking about the angles and posture involved. That could be done with an all-in-one computer.
"There are ergonomic solutions to this however, such as lectern-style setups which mirror old-school drafting desks."


You say having not used a professional-grade direct manipulation UI, nor in fact rebutting my points with more than unsubstantiated assertions or strawmen. I really want to know why you believe these things, but you have to actually explain it to me rather than just making statements that are either logical fallacies or presented without evidence. Help me understand the logic behind your opinions.
Logical fallacies? Is it really that hard to just be able to tell when something is going to cause pain after an long period of time? Jesus, you're acting like I have to write a book on back pain just to be knowledgeable of the subject, or anything for that matter.
 
IMO Apple is focusing to much on the iPhone, iPad, and iPod range. They need to revert attention to the computers and the software. The iPhone crap is great and all, but without the solid backing of the Mac and OS X, it's just not sustainable.
 
Right now, making Snow Leopard more stable and faster is more important than adding new user-level features.

Wasn't Snow Leopard supposed to be the more stable and faster version of Leopard, without adding new user-level features?

If we don't see a developer's version of 10.7 until WWDC '11, then we won't see a 10.7 release until 2012. Since SL has essentially the same UI as Leopard, that will mean approximately 5 years with the same UI.

Even more ironic considering that at Leopard's release Apple claimed they wanted to roll out new OS releases closer to 12-18 months apart.
 
To be quite honest I have no problem with the current mouse especially if the only other "alternative" requires you flailing your arms around or having your back hunched over. When something superior than the mouse arrives, I will be all over it, whatever it may be. Right now, all I see multitouch is, is a worse alternative.

And, as I've explained, you won't be 'flailing'. Controlled motions over a comfortable distance. You won't be hunched over any more than you are hunched over a keyboard as I explained subsequently. You can't simply ignore parts of my messages because they are inconvenient to your point, which is what it feels like you are doing.

Err... what? When you are using a mouse the largeness of the screen does not matter because your hands do not have to interact with the screen. When you are using Multitouch on a large screen the fatigue sets in quickly. I don't understand how this is that tough of a concept to understand?

That was rather condescending. I understand exactly what you are describing, but you are ignoring an important point. Namely, if your mouse has to address more pixels but in the same distance then precision will drop. The precision with which a human can move their hands is not going to increase, and so the same size motion will induce a larger motion of the pointer. An increase of size of the display may increase fatigue but the precision remains the same. Your original point was about how much more precise mice were, so I felt this was an important counterpoint.

So if i'm not going to be holding my hands up am I going to be hunched over? Because I've yet to see a comfortable solution with any of these multitouch devices.

Why are you continually assuming either a flat surface or a vertical one for desktop DM interfaces? I've personally found a tilted work surface has better ergonomics than an entirely flat one. If you hold out your arms for a second you can see that keeping your elbows at 90 degrees is actually quite an odd angle. The muscles feel less tense holding them with a more acute angle at the elbow, such as you'd get interacting with a surface that is at an angle. This is even more true when resting them on something.

Right, so you're all for these products that induce terrible ergonomics?

So far you're simply asserting that these products have terrible ergonomics. You haven't given me any evidence that this is the case, and my own experiences and background knowledge leads me to a different conclusion. Why do you believe the ergonomics are terrible?


"There are ergonomic solutions to this however, such as lectern-style setups which mirror old-school drafting desks."

I never claimed that you'd need a drafting desk in that statement. I stated that the setup would mirror a drafting desk's ergonomics (i.e. a sloped work surface).


Logical fallacies? Is it really that hard to just be able to tell when something is going to cause pain after an long period of time? Jesus, you're acting like I have to write a book on back pain just to be knowledgeable of the subject, or anything for that matter.

I was referring to the large number of strawman arguments you have made so far in this thread. They do not convince me. Argue the point under discussion, not a different one that is easier for you to assert. I honestly want to hear a cogent argument from you so I can re-evaluate my current beliefs in light of the new evidence. I need evidence to do that however.
 
I like the iPod touch and the iPad and the os they come with just as much as the next guy, but I like OS X much much more and I hope to god that what some (at one point I thought "Crazy") people who think Apple is abandoning OS X are not right. Contrary to what some believe, I don't believe at all that the iPad will replace the computer any time soon and I don't know what I would use as a replacement for OS X if Apple were to stop supporting it. I hate windows, and I really don't like linux that much. If you read this, Steve Jobs, please keep supporting OS X for a long long time (and OS 11, 12, etc.)
:(
 
The UIs will likely be radically different to suit the more direct style of manipulation since the 'vocabularies' used in WIMP and DM are very different.

These demos are still WIMP ( Windows , Icons , Menus , Pointer ). Your implementation of "Pointer" has gone from indirect mouse control to directly using the finger but they are still both pointers. You may feel an illusion of more direct manipulation but it is still just as directed either way.
The windows are still there. The icons are still there. The menus .... yes there.

The vocabulary is largely the same.

I know folks say but the gestures will cut down on menus/control panels.
That remains to be seen. Two factors which aren't going to change. One is that people have relatively small short term memory buffers. With a large set of commands only the most common will be quickly recalled otherwise you are off into long term recall which can be problematical for infrequent pulls of information. Menus/Panels work well because the commands are in front of you hopefully organized in a way to make that recall much more accurate/effective.

I don't buy into the the.... "we'll shortcut menus by doing a two handed, double twist with a half fakey" to invoke command 242 . Frankly the same thing can be done now with context function keys or command-shift-key22 .
Once get bound the initial small set of relative intuitive gestures they largely get as esoteric as the command-key equivs do.

The second factor is that the complexity inherent in the task being modeled by the software is still the same. It very likely was not the case that the menus and commands grew complex because the indirect pointer was causing the increase.

In very few cases it is. For example if folks are using to a very complex mechanical volume/input control panel. Where adjustments meant moving multiple dials/sliders/etc at once. With one pointer you have an increase in complexity. With two hands you have as many as you had in the mechanical equivalent. Those are winners, but unless the real world eqiv was not two handed won't see it.

However, also have cases where didn't really need those complicated mechanical boards. Sometimes their complexities are driven because couldn't create the right tool dynamically to be context specific.



Going to get into realm of doing what are taught as opposed to it really is a demonstrative improvement. It is just different. In tech demos need to look for "same woman different different dress". That is done all the time.
















They'll be less 'control panelly' and more artistic given what I've seen, removing a layer of separation between you and your creation.

It "more artistic" you mean will see on screen more object equivalents to what use in the real world. Perhaps. Painting/drawing with a pen.
However, if it is artsy and there was no real world equiv ( photo color correcting) not so much. There it will be the use of a controller. Not really going be much different at the core.... just looks different.
 
And, as I've explained, you won't be 'flailing'. Controlled motions over a comfortable distance. You won't be hunched over any more than you are hunched over a keyboard as I explained subsequently. You can't simply ignore parts of my messages because they are inconvenient to your point, which is what it feels like you are doing.
Ignoring parts of your point. What exactly is your point? What exactly did I ignore (no really, I'd like to know because I'll gladly respond again). As for this comfortable distance, you have yet to show me a device multitouch computer that actually looks comfortable to use. The reason why you haven't shown me anything? Because there isn't anything. A mouse and keyboard sits straight on your desk with your head straight at the screen and your arms leveled. Show me a multitouch device where that is possible. No matter how far away from the screen you are you are still going to get fatigue.


That was rather condescending. I understand exactly what you are describing, but you are ignoring an important point. Namely, if your mouse has to address more pixels but in the same distance then precision will drop. The precision with which a human can move their hands is not going to increase, and so the same size motion will induce a larger motion of the pointer. An increase of size of the display may increase fatigue but the precision remains the same. Your original point was about how much more precise mice were, so I felt this was an important counterpoint.
No, it really isn't an important counterpoint. After 1 hour of using my mouse my accuracy will not change due to fatigue. After 1 hour of using a multitouch display, who knows how tired my arms might be. It's basically a crap shoot. The fact that the screen is bigger will just make the fatigue even worse. Using a mouse is a consistent experience.


Why are you continually assuming either a flat surface or a vertical one for desktop DM interfaces? I've personally found a tilted work surface has better ergonomics than an entirely flat one. If you hold out your arms for a second you can see that keeping your elbows at 90 degrees is actually quite an odd angle. The muscles feel less tense holding them with a more acute angle at the elbow, such as you'd get interacting with a surface that is at an angle. This is even more true when resting them on something.
Why am I constantly assuming that? Because the only solutions you've shown me are obtaining a new desk or getting an all in one, one of which is a pain in the ass and the other of which you have to be at the perfect height for that to work correctly, which is yet another problem with multitouch.


So far you're simply asserting that these products have terrible ergonomics. You haven't given me any evidence that this is the case, and my own experiences and background knowledge leads me to a different conclusion. Why do you believe the ergonomics are terrible?
Any working environment that has you doing critical work for hours on end needs accuracy and precision. Once the fatigue sets in you're pretty much screwed.

I never claimed that you'd need a drafting desk in that statement. I stated that the setup would mirror a drafting desk's ergonomics (i.e. a sloped work surface).
You asked where you mentioned furniture and I replied. Your solution was buying yet another product just to make the one you own somewhat usable.

I was referring to the large number of strawman arguments you have made so far in this thread. They do not convince me. Argue the point under discussion, not a different one that is easier for you to assert. I honestly want to hear a cogent argument from you so I can re-evaluate my current beliefs in light of the new evidence. I need evidence to do that however.
You really seem to love the word strawman. Show me where I happened to skip over one of your arguments before you start using that term again because I'd really like to know where you are pulling this out of your ass from.
 
What would be the NORMAL time for Apple to upgrade Snow Leopard to 10.7? Steve Jobs, well over a year ago, said that he wanted a 12 to 18 month upgrade cycle. This policy would mean that 10.7 would be released between September 2010 and March 2011.

I thought they said wanted to get off the 12 month cycle. That's too quick.
More like minimally 18 and as longer as necessary.


You are not taking into account the beta period where developers are:

1. given the new OS to test.
2. educated on how to use the new API editions.

Typically for a desktop operating system that's a years lead time. Those applications tend to be larger, have more legacy migration issues, and on less flexible development schedules. (development train is already in motion, not going to change feature set now. ).
Dropping something on iPhone apps devs happens to work for two reasons.

1. the platform isn't that old so effectively there is no legacy software of significance. The platform is also pretty uniform. [ The latter is starting to fracture now. That is only going to increase with time. Second iPhone hardware revision will get dropped next major number and/or even more features not backported. In other words the QA complexity task starts to ramp to that of the much more mature Mac OS X. ]

2. Much higher percentage of the apps do substantially less. iWork on iPhone is a tons of functionality chopped out. Likewise most 5 min apps don't have much there.

Apple can probably keep the new hardware every 12 months. but the new OS every 12 months probably should go.


The upshot of all that is that if folks are pulled off of composing the "first drop" then that means there will be a slide.
 
These demos are still WIMP ( Windows , Icons , Menus , Pointer ). Your implementation of "Pointer" has gone from indirect mouse control to directly using the finger but they are still both pointers. You may feel an illusion of more direct manipulation but it is still just as directed either way.
The windows are still there. The icons are still there. The menus .... yes there.

These were posted as a direct comment on another poster's remarks that direct manipulation interfaces were incompatible with professional work. I pointed out that they were proof of concept, where the concept is one part of direct manipulation UI design. The illusion is important however, as I'll explain

The vocabulary is largely the same.

This I disagree on. The vocabulary of a UI is determined by the set of cognitive metaphors invoked by the UI scheme. Direct manipulation interfaces allow an increase in the use of concrete metaphors. These are the metaphors which tend to have shortcut implementations in the brain, and so require less mental load. The illusion of tangibility is important to reducing the mental effort involved.

I know folks say but the gestures will cut down on menus/control panels.
That remains to be seen. Two factors which aren't going to change. One is that people have relatively small short term memory buffers. With a large set of commands only the most common will be quickly recalled otherwise you are off into long term recall which can be problematical for infrequent pulls of information. Menus/Panels work well because the commands are in front of you hopefully organized in a way to make that recall much more accurate/effective.

I don't buy into the the.... "we'll shortcut menus by doing a two handed, double twist with a half fakey" to invoke command 242 . Frankly the same thing can be done now with context function keys or command-shift-key22 .
Once get bound the initial small set of relative intuitive gestures they largely get as esoteric as the command-key equivs do.

I don't buy into that either, and I wince when people suggest four finger swipes to bring down a menu or something. However, the point is to go further in reducing the cognitive complexity of the UI and reduce the number of mental steps needed for each manipulation of the information being presented. I believe that direct manipulation interfaces can go further here precisely because they can use more concrete metaphors and our evolved shortcuts.

Menus are actually an awful way of organising options. As I've previously pointed out, my PhD research has shown that humans are very poor at describing their process needs in terms of verbs (coleridge78's work seems to indicate something very similar). It is the nouns, the objects being manipulated, which matter. With direct manipulation interfaces you can attach the actions to the objects thus having the object as the 'key' rather than hunting for a verb in a menu that is disconnected from the object.

The second factor is that the complexity inherent in the task being modeled by the software is still the same. It very likely was not the case that the menus and commands grew complex because the indirect pointer was causing the increase.

I disagree here too. The complexity has increased because of the indirection. The inherent complexity is still the same, but the perceived complexity is less because there are less metaphors to translate concepts through.

In very few cases it is. For example if folks are using to a very complex mechanical volume/input control panel. Where adjustments meant moving multiple dials/sliders/etc at once. With one pointer you have an increase in complexity. With two hands you have as many as you had in the mechanical equivalent. Those are winners, but unless the real world eqiv was not two handed won't see it.

However, also have cases where didn't really need those complicated mechanical boards. Sometimes their complexities are driven because couldn't create the right tool dynamically to be context specific.

The win with direct manipulation interfaces isn't to do with how many elements you can interact with at a moment. The win is to do with how many less translations of abstractions you have to do to understand the UI.

Going to get into realm of doing what are taught as opposed to it really is a demonstrative improvement. It is just different. In tech demos need to look for "same woman different different dress". That is done all the time.

I am very well aware that the information underlying is still the same, but you are selling the idea short in my opinion. There are demonstrable improvements with direct manipulation caused by the reduction of cognitive complexity.

It "more artistic" you mean will see on screen more object equivalents to what use in the real world. Perhaps. Painting/drawing with a pen.
However, if it is artsy and there was no real world equiv ( photo color correcting) not so much. There it will be the use of a controller. Not really going be much different at the core.... just looks different.

By more artistic, I mean UIs that allow me to feel a greater personal connection with my art and reduce the amount of mental translation I have to do to achieve an certain result. As I've already argued, look-and-feel is important.
 
That was rather condescending. I understand exactly what you are describing, but you are ignoring an important point. Namely, if your mouse has to address more pixels but in the same distance then precision will drop.
precision doesn't matter when traveling long distance. It ony matters when traveling short distances. Mouse movement is non linear. Arm moment isn't. If you increase the velocity of your arm/hand high will will likely miss or most certainly will have to exert more force to stop it than a mouse.



The precision with which a human can move their hands is not going to increase, and so the same size motion will induce a larger motion of the pointer. An increase of size of the display may increase fatigue but the precision remains the same.

I not sure how that is a "may". Unless you changed the laws of physics moving more mass over a longer distance consumes more energy. You can try to tap dance around that, but it is true.

A mouse is a smaller mass that moves over a shorter distance (presuming you have self adjusting mouse tracking turned on. ).
 
I thought they said wanted to get off the 12 month cycle. That's too quick.
More like minimally 18 and as longer as necessary.

In The New York Times Oct. 22, 2007, Jobs is quoted:
Mr. Jobs said that Leopard would anchor a schedule of product upgrades that could continue for as long as a decade.

"I’m quite pleased with the pace of new operating systems every 12 to 18 months for the foreseeable future," he said.

Of course we believe that statement as much as anything Jobs says. Subject to change, denial, or lame excuse at any time.
 
Ignoring parts of your point. What exactly is your point? What exactly did I ignore (no really, I'd like to know because I'll gladly respond again). As for this comfortable distance, you have yet to show me a device multitouch computer that actually looks comfortable to use. The reason why you haven't shown me anything? Because there isn't anything. A mouse and keyboard sits straight on your desk with your head straight at the screen and your arms leveled. Show me a multitouch device where that is possible. No matter how far away from the screen you are you are still going to get fatigue.

Well, some of the machines at my university for example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sCscZV8Gu4

(note, this is not an example of a complex UI, just of the ergonomics of the interaction device.)

They are comfortable to use, for both adults and children (they're being developed for schools).

No, it really isn't an important counterpoint. After 1 hour of using my mouse my accuracy will not change due to fatigue. After 1 hour of using a multitouch display, who knows how tired my arms might be. It's basically a crap shoot. The fact that the screen is bigger will just make the fatigue even worse. Using a mouse is a consistent experience.

Ok, you wanted an example of a strawman. This is one. I make a point, and you don't rebut the point I made but rather another point that looks superficially similar. My point was that the mouse isn't consistent with scale-up, which is what you were arguing before. You've now changed the argument to one about long-term use. Yet, you're still ignoring my points that with an appropriate setup your arms will probably not be significantly more tired than they would be if you'd been driving a mouse around. You've still got to move your arms around, and the fine muscle control of your hand position, that mice tend to need, can be more tiring than overall grosser muscle control.

Why am I constantly assuming that? Because the only solutions you've shown me are obtaining a new desk or getting an all in one, one of which is a pain in the ass and the other of which you have to be at the perfect height for that to work correctly, which is yet another problem with multitouch.

By All-in-one I mean 'all-in-one computer', like how the iMac is described, where the display includes the machine. You'd have a computer-containing display/interaction-surface that could be raised or lowered as you see fit and reangled. You just sit that unit on your (normal) desk.

Any working environment that has you doing critical work for hours on end needs accuracy and precision. Once the fatigue sets in you're pretty much screwed.

And I agree with that. But that doesn't mean that smaller motions are less tiring. It really depends on the precision required by which muscles.

You asked where you mentioned furniture and I replied. Your solution was buying yet another product just to make the one you own somewhat usable.

Actually, my solution was that the product would include the angle of adjustment and height. I communicated that poorly and so you misunderstood me. My apologies.

You really seem to love the word strawman. Show me where I happened to skip over one of your arguments before you start using that term again because I'd really like to know where you are pulling this out of your ass from.

I've said this above, but it bears repeating; a strawman argument is where the arguer attacks an argument that is superficially similar to, but distinct from, the argument they're ostensibly attacking. It isn't about skipping over arguments so much as misinterpreting them.
 
I don't have any issues with OSX. Ok with me for more developers to work on iphone/iPad. Ralph

Same here, truth be known I'd be happy if Apple kept providing updates for the next 2 years before releasing anything new; ever since 10.6.3 everything has been super rock solid; not a single crash (well, I haven never had a kernel panic in the 9 years of owning Mac's - then again I am very particular about the hardware components I buy - Apacer memory all the way :p), applications all working smoothly, applications are coming forth that'll take advantage of 64bitness, GrandCentral and OpenCL - so I'm pretty excited about the future.

Regarding the iPad - I'm going to be purchasing the 3G model when it comes out, most likely the low end 16GB given that all my music is sitting on my iPod Classic (160GB) because I really need the space which Classic provides for my music collection :) iPhoneOS 4.0 is looking awesome and quite frankly I am really excited that Apple put the hard work on not allowing Flash given that Adobe has provided Flash development tools that'll allow people to transform their Flash projects into HTML5 compatible projects which include canvas support - hopefully in the long run Flash will be viewed as some weird oddity needed on the very rare occasion rather than the 'must have' plugin to be installed.

Imagine a browser with no plugins at all :) No Java plugin, no Silverlight, no Flash - oh what a day that'll be when it occurs :)
 
precision doesn't matter when traveling long distance. It ony matters when traveling short distances. Mouse movement is non linear. Arm moment isn't. If you increase the velocity of your arm/hand high will will likely miss or most certainly will have to exert more force to stop it than a mouse.

Long distances weren't my point. It was the number of pixels a given small motion covers. As you scale up the display, the mouse will either have to cover a greater distance (but with the same 'pixel density') or the same distance (but with a higher density).

I not sure how that is a "may". Unless you changed the laws of physics moving more mass over a longer distance consumes more energy. You can try to tap dance around that, but it is true.

A mouse is a smaller mass that moves over a shorter distance (presuming you have self adjusting mouse tracking turned on. ).

Apologies, I think I grossly jumbled my point in my own head and then inflicted it on everyone else. I was attempting to contrast the finer muscle control needed to move a mouse with the muscle control needed for moving a hand over the interface. Perhaps you know what the efficiency is of each set of muscles, because I know that using a mouse makes me feel more tired than moving stuff around my desk over the same time period.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.