Apple's Health VP Talks Glucose Monitoring on Apple Watch Amid Rumors of Noninvasive Tracking Breakthrough

[citysnaps]

2 years? LOL. My BEST guesstimate is 10 years, and that’s just for a stand-alone expensive consumer version from the big boys medical device companies. Apple will wait until cost is so cheap (so they get the best margin) and miniaturization is optimized before they get in, and that’s even before going through the FDA process. This research has gone for decades, done by good scientists. A random Apple Silicon Valley engineer wont just suddenly do magic. This is real science, not pseudo science conjured up through made up algorithm ala Silicon Valley.

LOL? Seriously? Why the snotty retort? Was there some kind of race getting that out rather than simply seeking clarification?

Please relax and reread what I wrote. I didn’t say that tech would be available in an Apple Watch ready-to-purchase in two years.

Clearly there’s a long way to go evaluating lab proof-of-concept prototypes, conducting human trials in collaboration with medical facilities (Stanford University comes to mind as Apple has engaged with them previously for trials), further refining the technology so it can be miniaturized in a Watch. More trials. And finally FDA acceptance.

What I did say was I'll be looking forward to seeing how your comments and views age over the next two years - as Apple goes about development, there will be more information forthcoming about their progress and success over time.

In the mean time… since you feel so strongly about this, you should write a letter to Tim C and Craig F sharing your views, along with a piece of your mind letting them know they are clearly going down a dangerous path, letting them know what they’re really up against getting an approved device to market.

No doubt they’ve put little thought into what lies ahead by putting a random Apple engineer doing magic while conducting pseudo science through a made up algorithm, and bringing that tech to market.

Will you write that letter and help save Apple?

 

[surfzen21]

We’ll it’s WaPo.. 🤷‍♂️

Unfortunately we live in a world of advertising where most if not all media does this to some extent.

 

[TheYayAreaLiving 🎗️]

Are you saying it can it actually take your temperature? With what level of accuracy? I thought it was only for female cycle tracking.

Yes, body temperature can be easily tracked.

Track your nightly wrist temperature changes with Apple Watch - Apple Support

Apple Watch Series 8 or Apple Watch Ultra can gather wrist temperature data while you sleep to help give you insight into your overall well-being.

support.apple.com

 

[mongobongo]

Yes, body temperature can be easily tracked.

Track your nightly wrist temperature changes with Apple Watch - Apple Support

Apple Watch Series 8 or Apple Watch Ultra can gather wrist temperature data while you sleep to help give you insight into your overall well-being.

support.apple.com

From that document it's clear that it can't. Wrist temperature is not the same as body temperature. And even that it can only give changes from baseline. Not a definitive number.

• The temperature sensing feature is not a thermometer and cannot provide wrist temperature measurements on-demand.

 

[Truckondo]

Anything better than not testing at all.

 

[Vref]

Unfortunately we live in a world of advertising where most if not all media does this to some extent.

True, but wapo and huff I normal only click if I want a laugh

 

[mongobongo]

I appreciate you summarizing it for me.

My experience and all the people I know who have an Apple watch have had different results. And those results are accurate within 1% point.

As far as being narrow minded, I'm going to take the direct experience of myself, friends and colleagues over the opinion of a journalist who feels they need to draw people into a story about an important matter by using sensational language.

Sure, you and your buddies have direct experiences, everybody else, merely opinions

The article is from September 2020 when Series 6 had just come out. It's possible that the sensor has improved since then. But hey, you'd have to read past the headline to come to that conclusion

 

[Vref]

Sure, you and your buddies have direct experiences, everybody else, merely opinions

The article is from September 2020 when Series 6 had just come out. It's possible that the sensor has improved since then. But hey, you'd have to read past the headline to come to that conclusion

If what he is saying is true, yes they do have direct experiences

One thing over the last few years which I find hilarious is the push to trust the media over what you see with your own two damn eyeballs

Now if he said he did a cross comparison between the Apple and XYZ medial machine, obviously that would be better, but I tend to trust boots on the ground over “the expertz”

 

[Vref]

Anything better than not testing at all.

No

If it’s saying you’re good when you’re not that’s really bad

If it’s saying you’re going to die when you’re fine, that’s also not very good


If it’s a margin of error that doesn’t really make a tangible difference, that’s ok

 

[mongobongo]

If what he is saying is true, yes they do have direct experiences

One thing over the last few years which I find hilarious is the push to trust the media over what you see with your own two damn eyeballs

Now if he said he did a cross comparison between the Apple and XYZ medial machine, obviously that would be better, but I tend to trust boots on the ground over “the expertz”

I don't doubt what he is saying is true to his experience. But I don't doubt that journalist who wrote about his experience from 2+ years ago either. To me it's all third party information of about equal validity.

 

[jib2]

Any of those inaccurate numbers in the double digits could be very dangerous for a diabetic. Even 5%.

FYI. As diabetic, I can say that all glucose readings vary, often more than 5%. I can take two readings from the same finger, and see a variation more than 5%. And my endocrinologist has said meter readings always vary between meters and lab tests. And Freestyle and Dexcom readings vary from blood sugar readings. For most purposes, general consistency and accuracy are sufficient. (Of course type 1 diabetics and others using insulin pumps need calibration and consistency).

I would be happy to use an Apple device upon approval and release; I would compare it to my normal metering for a while to check it.

 

[Vref]

I don't doubt what he is saying is true to his experience. But I don't doubt that journalist who wrote about his experience from 2+ years ago either. To me it's all third party information of about equal validity.

The issue with journalists is if they don’t make stories people want to click, most of them don’t have many other skills they can put food on the table with

So click worthy stories runnith over

 

[mongobongo]

The issue with journalists is if they don’t make stories people want to click, most of them don’t have many other skills they can put food on the table with

So click worthy stories runnith over

They sure do but it takes a lot more to dismiss one than reading a headline.

 

[Vref]

They sure do but it takes a lot more to dismiss one than reading a headline.

Because they make money off clicks IMO they are half out the dismissed door before I even read their article

I trust boots on the ground who don’t make a dollar of me hearing their opinion, or a cent off if I use a product or not, obviously the #1 authority is my own experience

 

[surfzen21]

Sure, you and your buddies have direct experiences, everybody else, merely opinions

The article is from September 2020 when Series 6 had just come out. It's possible that the sensor has improved since then. But hey, you'd have to read past the headline to come to that conclusion

Why would I read it when you summarized it for me.

Are you saying your summary is inaccurate?

If your summary is not accurate, would you say its more or less accurate than the blood oxygen sensor on the Apple Watch?

 

[mongobongo]

Why would I read it when you summarized it for me.

Are you saying your summary is inaccurate?

If your summary is not accurate, would you say its more or less accurate than the blood oxygen sensor on the Apple Watch?

Very funny 😂👏

I didn't summarize the article for you. All I did was put the headline in some context since you found it so sensational, which I disagree with.

 

[lysingur]

I'm sure if it's actually viable for the market, the big boys (Bayer, Medtronics, Abbott, etc) would've already made theirs as a non-invasive device would be a huge money maker. It would've been a huge breakthrough in medical community. Yet we don't see them yet.

So for now thinking that Apple somehow magically able to do one is quite farfetched.

What Apple is doing is putting non-invasive tech inside a watch. If this is indeed what you're talking about, then know this: miniaturization and chip design aren't exactly the forte of your so-called "big boys", or any medical device manufacturer for that matter. This is not to mention the software side of things, e.g., writing apps that can sync data from the medical device to your smartphone, have good UI & UX, and work seamlessly with Apple Health. So, no, you're wrong. Even if it's viable, it's not a given that someone other than Apple would've made theirs.

 

[surfzen21]

I found this to be an interesting test and assessment.

After reading the completely subjective article you posted, its changed nothing in my mind.

The author had inaccurate readings with their watch, Apple swapped it out, then Apple sent him different bands. The new bands were more accurate. So its clear that some user error was involved. To add to that the author vaguely spoke about skin tone but gave no further details. Its known that having tattoos does effect the heart and blood sensor readings.

So you want me to take seriously one persons subjective experience over multiple subjective experiences of myself and friends, one of whom is a medical doctor. Got it.

My only conclusion is that you are getting some type of commission of every click on that article. Congrats you got me and an additional 6 cents.. I hope you use it well.

 

[mongobongo]

I found this to be an interesting test and assessment.

After reading the completely subjective article you posted, its changed nothing in my mind.

The author had inaccurate readings with their watch, Apple swapped it out, then Apple sent him different bands. The new bands were more accurate. So its clear that some user error was involved. To add to that the author vaguely spoke about skin tone but gave no further details. Its known that having tattoos does effect the heart and blood sensor readings.

So you want me to take seriously one persons subjective experience over multiple subjective experiences of myself and friends, one of whom is a medical doctor. Got it.

My only conclusion is that you are getting some type of commission of every click on that article. Congrats you got me and an additional 6 cents.. I hope you use it well.

I wasn't trying to change your mind or get you to read that article. All I said was it's narrow minded to dismiss any article based on headline alone.

I'll be sure to check out that video.

 

[surfzen21]

I wasn't trying to change your mind or get you to read that article. All I said was it's narrow minded to dismiss any article based on headline alone.

I'll be sure to check out that video.

Oh, well then I disagree about deciding to read or not read based on title.

However, I do not apply that to books.

But everyone is different and has a different threshold for dramatics. I find dramatic people and an extension of that their work product to be unappealing and/or at times annoying.

IRL and on the interwebs. Although, I am aware its the primary driver of clicks and views.

 

[falainber]

I found this to be an interesting test and assessment.

After reading the completely subjective article you posted, its changed nothing in my mind.

The author had inaccurate readings with their watch, Apple swapped it out, then Apple sent him different bands. The new bands were more accurate. So its clear that some user error was involved. To add to that the author vaguely spoke about skin tone but gave no further details. Its known that having tattoos does effect the heart and blood sensor readings.

So you want me to take seriously one persons subjective experience over multiple subjective experiences of myself and friends, one of whom is a medical doctor. Got it.

My only conclusion is that you are getting some type of commission of every click on that article. Congrats you got me and an additional 6 cents.. I hope you use it well.

Well, maybe this medical study from NIH (Accuracy of the Apple Watch Oxygen Saturation Measurement in Adults and Children with Congenital Heart Disease) will change your mind. Quote:

The study demonstrated that oxygen saturation measurement with the Apple Watch 6 is not yet up to the medical standard of pulse oximetry, too large a proportion of the measurements remain either unsuccessful or incorrect. While a high proportion of unsuccessful measurements in children can be attributed to movement, the cause in adults usually remains unclear.

I think study's conclusion is pretty clear. From reading MacRumors, it appears that Apple Watch measurements are considerably more accurate when performed on Apple fans, though.

 

[surfzen21]

Well, maybe this medical study from NIH (Accuracy of the Apple Watch Oxygen Saturation Measurement in Adults and Children with Congenital Heart Disease) will change your mind. Quote:

The study demonstrated that oxygen saturation measurement with the Apple Watch 6 is not yet up to the medical standard of pulse oximetry, too large a proportion of the measurements remain either unsuccessful or incorrect. While a high proportion of unsuccessful measurements in children can be attributed to movement, the cause in adults usually remains unclear.

I think study's conclusion is pretty clear. From reading MacRumors, it appears that Apple Watch measurements are considerably more accurate when performed on Apple fans, though.

At least its a real study. I'd personally like to look at the actually data as opposed to reading the conclusions. It may be cited but I didn't immediately see it.

 

[2Stepfan]

Yesterday I found out that non invasive blood glucose monitors already exist. A diabetic upthread mentioned one in passing.
Here’s one that Jeff Sutherland uses for, I think, general health and weight control:

Dexcom G7 CGM System

Dexcom G7, our most advanced CGM for greater diabetes control

www.dexcom.com

The NHS in the UK is planning to use them for diabetes management:

NHS England » NHS to roll out life-changing glucose monitors to all Type 1 diabetes patients

www.england.nhs.uk

I had no idea this was possible. Even if it’s not a complete replacement for finger pricks, these kinds of monitors can monitor glucose levels well enough to provide trend information. But they still have to press a sensor into the skin To track glucose through (AIUI). I think they’re around £100 for a pack of six.

So it is possible that the big technical innovation is already done - electric magnetic tracking of glucose levels without needing to draw blood. Apple would need to make the watch contact close enough to the skin to get usable data. And it’s still not a complete replacement for testing. But it would be enough to be helpful for diabetics and perhaps more importantly, a useful health monitor for everyone else.

 

[cardfan]

This is not trivial and the idea that Apple would release this without it being fully vetted is ridiculous. It would require FDA approval and would likely be vetted against other tried and true methods thousands of times.

When it ships, it will be accurate and FDA approved

Look if this was the case where apple could release something the fda approves that freaking measures blood sugar? That’s a game changer. It’s not just a nice feature to wait for. That’s iPhone level territory. It wouldn’t be just kind of cool, apple couldn’t make them fast enough. You’ve no idea.

And it isn’t going to happen. It’s the same nonsense as their driverless car.

 

[microspock]

Yesterday I found out that non invasive blood glucose monitors already exist. A diabetic upthread mentioned one in passing.
Here’s one that Jeff Sutherland uses for, I think, general health and weight control:

Dexcom G7 CGM System

Dexcom G7, our most advanced CGM for greater diabetes control

www.dexcom.com

The NHS in the UK is planning to use them for diabetes management:

NHS England » NHS to roll out life-changing glucose monitors to all Type 1 diabetes patients

www.england.nhs.uk

I had no idea this was possible. Even if it’s not a complete replacement for finger pricks, these kinds of monitors can monitor glucose levels well enough to provide trend information. But they still have to press a sensor into the skin To track glucose through (AIUI). I think they’re around £100 for a pack of six.

So it is possible that the big technical innovation is already done - electric magnetic tracking of glucose levels without needing to draw blood. Apple would need to make the watch contact close enough to the skin to get usable data. And it’s still not a complete replacement for testing. But it would be enough to be helpful for diabetics and perhaps more importantly, a useful health monitor for everyone else.

G7 is not non invasive, there is a little canulla of a few millimeters. It works like the Freestyle libre 1, 2 and now 3 also with a canulla (so not non ivasive too). This technology is available since 2015 i think. I was a FSL 1 and FSL 2 user for years, and now i use the freestyle libre 3 since 12 months. The glucose mesure is in realtime (updated every minutes) and it is even smaller than the G7. G7 is at the moment £140 for 3 sensor (1 month, 10 days by sensor). FSL 3 in France is €65 for one 15 days sensor, so €130 for one month.

this video explains well those two devices:

The soon to be revealed FSL 4 is rumored to have a real time ketone measure too, which is another game changer for me, to prevent and avoid DKA. You can have good glucose level and bad ketones at the same time (when you've got flu for example), this happens to me once, a very bad experience i don't want to reproduce.