Apple's iMessage May Dodge EU Regulatory Demand for Interoperability

[BaldiMac]

It was a simplification of encryption, I didn’t expect I was going down in details

No, it wasn't. It was wrong. You incorrectly claimed the private key was combined with the public key to decrypt a message. That's wrong. The public key is used to encrypt the message. The private key is used to decrypt the message.

Beeper in the AppStore does the same thing. What is it that you think will happen if the public key is accessed without having everything else as well? Or did you not understand the explanation I gave that walked through what’s needed to compromise everything?

Again, that's not this conversation we are having around public keys. You're going off on a tangent. You're the one that claimed that the public key was protected behind strong encryption, not me.

Perhaps, but it’s not beeper who wrote the software of the proof of concept. And seems it can count as fair use. But we will se.

Beeper claim that they have the law on their side.

Beeper can claim anything they want. They're wrong. And they've been shut off.

Because EU accepts both. The DMA doesn’t prescribe how Something should be done but as long as it’s interoperable. View attachment 2322457
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If you can’t understand it and have a different understanding of the text then we will just see in a few months who was correct in their interpretation.

No, it doesn't. If you want to have this conversation again, go back and reread our conversation in the thread I just linked to.

Or you can use legal resources to support your claim.
Why would Apple otherwise allow it on the AppStore if it’s illegal?

They didn't. Beeper mini is not and has not been available on the App Store. The Beeper app in the App Store did not support iMessage.

Software that allows users to do illegal things aren’t themselves illegal such as torrent software or software for removing DRM etc

They are illegal if their only purpose is to allow them to do illegal things. Like facilitating unauthorized access to a private server.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

This is the list of Gatekeepers designated by EU: Gatekeepers
The reason why iMessage comes up is because Google and others asked for it, and thus EU are now investigating if iMessage is one. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/202...-be-regulated-by-the-eus-digital-markets-act/

No, the reason is because Apple was designated a gatekeeper, and their services was deemed to meet the requirements. And Apple filed evidence in the opposite.

Google is arguing Apple is wrong and iMessage should stay as a gatekeeper.

It’s interesting that there are no EU firms on the Gatekeeper list. That’s probably as much a function of Europe’s failure to establish strong consumer technology firms as it is domestic (or at least EU, as it were) protectionism. Of course, 15 years ago, Nokia had Symbian, which was the leading phone OS by market share. It makes one wonder what happened between 2005/2006 and now (besides the iPhone and the failure that was Windows Phone), why Europe isn’t a bigger name in consumer electronics.

Consumer electronics isn’t more important than other industries. We have perhaps 15 different computer manufacturers.

ASML is the one who makes all advanced chips possible for the last 15 years and killed the American lithography industry, and without them Intel wouldn’t be able to make their chips.

Every big tech company uses SAP enterprise management software and infrastructure.

Siltronic, SOITEC and OKMETIC are the top manufacturers of the silicone wafers all electronics need and not Chinese.

DHL is a German owned company. Same with T-mobile etc etc.

(Firms like Grundig and Philips that would have been big names 20+ years ago have become some of those “in-name only” brands [or at least licensed their names out to cheap no-name Chinese firms], but Europe failed to have a follow-up, while Apple was the US’s follow-up to firms like GE and RCA, at least in terms of consumer electronics name recognition.)

So Bosch, Siemens, Electrolux, Logitech STMicroelectronics, NXP Semiconductors, Philips, Ericsson etc don’t count?

Nokia is almost 160 years old, consumer electronics isn’t their core interests or only division.

Philips was formerly one of the largest electronics companies in the world, but is currently focused on the area of health technology, having divested its other divisions.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

No, it wasn't. It was wrong. You incorrectly claimed the private key was combined with the public key to decrypt a message. That's wrong. The public key is used to encrypt the message. The private key is used to decrypt the message.


Again, that's not this conversation we are having around public keys. You're going off on a tangent. You're the one that claimed that the public key was protected behind strong encryption, not me.

unless you have the right keys and verifications it’s not accessible to anyone.

Beeper can claim anything they want. They're wrong. And they've been shut off.

It works for me fine so it’s still working.

No, it doesn't. If you want to have this conversation again, go back and reread our conversation in the thread I just linked to.

Then we will se how it will be implemented by all the major parties in 3 months or so. If WhatsApp and messenger will implement service interoperability they way you think or my interpretation will settle it

They didn't. Beeper mini is not and has not been available on the App Store. The Beeper app in the App Store did not support iMessage.

The beeper app in the store has always supported iMessage. As you can see from my screenshot

They are illegal if their only purpose is to allow them to do illegal things. Like facilitating unauthorized access to a private server.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

That’s why it’s important that government stop being a nanny state when vote with your $$$ should drive market requirements. If you don’t like the fact that apple is a closed ecosystem, then don’t buy the product, but don’t lobby for government to regulate some lifestyle product either (as long as it’s not about health and safety)

Well the governments purpose is to maintain the market. You keep forgetting that consumers aren’t the only ones who have their interests protected.

In many cases they have provided better prices also along with a worse experience. What they provide is convenience, but it’s true, buyer beware…just don’t press that buy button.

Indeed a worse experience that provides greater value. Just how the Mac App Store or epic store gets destroyed by steam who seems to provide better experience and convenience but not always the cheapest price.

That’s a problem with a nanny state. Everything should be equal instead of allowing competition to guide natural selection.

Yes the state wants equal opportunity to maximize competition based on features and capabilities that are superior, instead of customer lock-in that limits competition.

In the same way, is WhatsApp biggest in EU because it’s a superior service? Or because they managed to capture the market and leverage their user base to choke iMessage user base.

For all we know everyone would love to use iMessage, but because everyone is on WhatsApp it disincentivizes users to not use iMessage in the first place.

And you shouldn’t have a choice with a closed ecosystem. Again vote with your $$$, even if it means less governmental regulation.

Or you should have a choice, if apple only allowed first party software I would be on your side, but now they allow third party developers to compete and sell their products, and therefore Apple must be governed by the exact same rules that they put on the companies.

The EU is setting precedents that will come back to haunt them. History shows what happens with bad decisions.

Seems to have a good track record in EU. Just look how ISP and telecom companies are doing in USA vs EU. Seems our way helped consumers to have more options and freedoms while prices got lower with increased quality.

While in the USA it seems consumers are getting worse service and no real ability to chose better services or lower prices without moving to another neighborhood

 

[BaldiMac]

It works for me fine so it’s still working.

So now you don't know the difference between Beeper and Beeper mini?

The beeper app in the store has always supported iMessage. As you can see from my screenshot

Fair enough. I was going by the App Store description. From your screenshot, it appears to be a bridge that's added server side. Which doesn't support your argument that it was approved by Apple. Beeper deliberately keeping any mention of iMessage from the App Store and screenshots should tell you something.

FWIW, one small screenshot is enough. No need to junk of the post with multiple large shreenshots to show the same thing.

And doesn't change the more relevant point that Beeper mini is not on the App Store.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

So now you don't know the difference between Beeper and Beeper mini?

Beeper(cloud) and beeper mini both have iMessage available. Beeper mini is just specific for android untill they include the rest of the features in that specific app

Fair enough. I was going by the App Store description. From your screenshot, it appears to be a bridge that's added server side. Which doesn't support your argument that it was approved by Apple. Beeper deliberately keeping any mention of iMessage from the App Store and screenshots should tell you something.

Well they started with it as such. But the iOS app can only be setup on a computer to pick and chose what messaging apps. And as I understand they quietly shipped the same functionality on iOS several weeks ago.

FWIW, one small screenshot is enough. No need to junk of the post with multiple large shreenshots to show the same thing.

And doesn't change the more relevant point that Beeper mini is not on the App Store.

Fair enough, but beeper mini will never be on iOS as it doesn’t serv a purpose. And it was reported that everyone using both the apps experienced issues, and I suspect that people that doesn’t use a real appleID are the ones largely effected. As it’s been working continuously for me.

So I’m just going with what they have said. As I can’t really decompile the app.

 

[I7guy]

Well the governments purpose is to maintain the market. You keep forgetting that consumers aren’t the only ones who have their interests protected.

Indeed a worse experience that provides greater value. Just how the Mac App Store or epic store gets destroyed by steam who seems to provide better experience and convenience but not always the cheapest price.

Yes the state wants equal opportunity to maximize competition based on features and capabilities that are superior, instead of customer lock-in that limits competition.

In the same way, is WhatsApp biggest in EU because it’s a superior service? Or because they managed to capture the market and leverage their user base to choke iMessage user base.

For all we know everyone would love to use iMessage, but because everyone is on WhatsApp it disincentivizes users to not use iMessage in the first place.

Or you should have a choice, if apple only allowed first party software I would be on your side, but now they allow third party developers to compete and sell their products, and therefore Apple must be governed by the exact same rules that they put on the companies.

Seems to have a good track record in EU. Just look how ISP and telecom companies are doing in USA vs EU. Seems our way helped consumers to have more options and freedoms while prices got lower with increased quality.

While in the USA it seems consumers are getting worse service and no real ability to chose better services or lower prices without moving to another neighborhood

The governments purpose is to not to regulate markets such that it gives away IP, and therein is where we have a fundemental disagreement.

Lower prices and better quality may apply to regulated resources like cell phone spectrum frequency, which the regulation is what the EU is a master of. But it seems most lifestyle products, those that depend on capitalism an innovation are quite a bit more expensive. So there is that.

 

[jlc1978]

Well not if they comply with the security requirements of the protocol. No reason to have inferior standards.

That assumes all companies are good actors and follow the rules.

Well it depends the competing apps must have the same treatment as a first party offering if they are competing.

Apple does not allow purchase of Apple Apps via a third party, so while I think you would disagree with my interpretation of your comment, by your standards Apple should be able to prevent 3rd party apps from using outside payment services.

With the advent of 3rd party apps stores and side loading, Apple no longer has a monopoly on app purchases, so placing restrictions on their actions would no longer be needed; if a developer balks at 30% they can use a different apps tore or sell it from tehir website. Consumers have choices and developers do as well. The market can decide; although I suspect beyond a few large players 3rd party app stores will find it hard to compete.

in the USA you might consider freedom as only related with government intervention. But in EU this includes the government AND businesses, a business can interfere with your freedoms in the same way to harm competitors, the market and consumers

It's a bit more complicated. Business can be held to account for harms they cause in teh marketplace, and the major harm is making prices higher than in a truly competitive market.

Oddly enough, in some cases a monopoly keeps prices lower than in a competitive market simply to maintain teh monopoly by making prices to low for competitors to enter and make a profit.

Seems to have a good track record in EU. Just look how ISP and telecom companies are doing in USA vs EU. Seems our way helped consumers to have more options and freedoms while prices got lower with increased quality.

While in the USA it seems consumers are getting worse service and no real ability to chose better services or lower prices without moving to another neighborhood

Define worse. In the US, I have the choice of multiple ISPs at various price points and speeds, for as little as $25/month for unlimited 300gb 5G service; I pay 30Euros/month for unlimited 5G in the EU. I can roam throughout the US for one fixed rate with no extra data charges or paying for text messages; and get low speed data which is fast enough for FaceTime or WhatsApp and free texting in the EU. I can use my phone in Canada for no extra charges, can you do that in the UK or Switzerland o the neighboring non-EU countries? If I wanted really low cost services tehre are a number of virtual operators who offer it without the perks of the Big 3.

My experience with the US and EU is both places' ISPs and telcos have pluses and minuses and the markets simply evolved differently.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

The governments purpose is to not to regulate markets such that it gives away IP, and therein is where we have a fundemental disagreement.

That’s your interpretation and the government defines what IP is.
In the USA you have fair use and therefore not protected , in EU fair use doesn’t exist and always protected.

Lower prices and better quality may apply to regulated resources like cell phone spectrum frequency, which the regulation is what the EU is a master of. But it seems most lifestyle products, those that depend on capitalism an innovation are quite a bit more expensive. So there is that.

Lower prices and better quality is meaningless metrics when they aren’t correlated and market stakeholders use different metrics to make their decisions.

That assumes all companies are good actors and follow the rules.

No need, it’s a contract. If you break it you can get sued. Nobody thinks companies are ever good actors.

Apple does not allow purchase of Apple Apps via a third party, so while I think you would disagree with my interpretation of your comment, by your standards Apple should be able to prevent 3rd party apps from using outside payment services.

Well I’m not disagreeing considering it’s what they already do.

With the advent of 3rd party apps stores and side loading, Apple no longer has a monopoly on app purchases, so placing restrictions on their actions would no longer be needed; if a developer balks at 30% they can use a different apps tore or sell it from tehir website. Consumers have choices and developers do as well. The market can decide; although I suspect beyond a few large players 3rd party app stores will find it hard to compete.

Well sure, but that’s not here yet for 3 more months. When third party AppStores are available on iOS then Apple can do as they wish with apps sold through their store if they think it’s competitive.

But I would say if steam opens up they will very quickly steel the entire gaming market on iOS.

It's a bit more complicated. Business can be held to account for harms they cause in teh marketplace, and the major harm is making prices higher than in a truly competitive market.

Oddly enough, in some cases a monopoly keeps prices lower than in a competitive market simply to maintain teh monopoly by making prices to low for competitors to enter and make a profit.

It’s exactly like this why a major harm such as “price” is not relevant to know if harm is caused. Especially when you can have two equal products but the expensive one just have a different perceived value of luxury so can be sold much more expensive.

Define worse. In the US, I have the choice of multiple ISPs at various price points and speeds, for as little as $25/month for unlimited 300gb 5G service; I pay 30Euros/month for unlimited 5G in the EU. I can roam throughout the US for one fixed rate with no extra data charges or paying for text messages; and get low speed data which is fast enough for FaceTime or WhatsApp and free texting in the EU. I can use my phone in Canada for no extra charges, can you do that in the UK or Switzerland o the neighboring non-EU countries? If I wanted really low cost services tehre are a number of virtual operators who offer it without the perks of the Big 3.

Well I would say 300gb isn’t unlimited and misleading marketing that you should sue over. And yes we can do that in non eu members such as Norway or Ukraine and Switzerland depending on what EU carrier you use. And don’t forget EU is still made of individual independent countries.

Well better in the form that any networks and infrastructure must be open to the market under FRAND agreements

My experience with the US and EU is both places' ISPs and telcos have pluses and minuses and the markets simply evolved differently.

Well considering in the U.S. many regions are dominated by a single ISP who have quite literally a monopoly by virtue of owning the infrastructure. While in EU that was prevented from happening because everyone was allowed to use the same infrastructure because competition would be prevented from happening on the basis of of the quality of the service instead of where your address is located

 

[Sophisticatednut]

That assumes all companies are good actors and follow the rules.



Apple does not allow purchase of Apple Apps via a third party, so while I think you would disagree with my interpretation of your comment, by your standards Apple should be able to prevent 3rd party apps from using outside payment services.

With the advent of 3rd party apps stores and side loading, Apple no longer has a monopoly on app purchases, so placing restrictions on their actions would no longer be needed; if a developer balks at 30% they can use a different apps tore or sell it from tehir website. Consumers have choices and developers do as well. The market can decide; although I suspect beyond a few large players 3rd party app stores will find it hard to compete.



It's a bit more complicated. Business can be held to account for harms they cause in teh marketplace, and the major harm is making prices higher than in a truly competitive market.

Oddly enough, in some cases a monopoly keeps prices lower than in a competitive market simply to maintain teh monopoly by making prices to low for competitors to enter and make a profit.




Define worse. In the US, I have the choice of multiple ISPs at various price points and speeds, for as little as $25/month for unlimited 300gb 5G service; I pay 30Euros/month for unlimited 5G in the EU. I can roam throughout the US for one fixed rate with no extra data charges or paying for text messages; and get low speed data which is fast enough for FaceTime or WhatsApp and free texting in the EU. I can use my phone in Canada for no extra charges, can you do that in the UK or Switzerland o the neighboring non-EU countries? If I wanted really low cost services tehre are a number of virtual operators who offer it without the perks of the Big 3.

My experience with the US and EU is both places' ISPs and telcos have pluses and minuses and the markets simply evolved differently.

And I hope to god you don’t have data caps on your landline provided broadband services and have actual unlimited data as a baseline

 

[I7guy]

That’s your interpretation and the government defines what IP is.
In the USA you have fair use and therefore not protected , in EU fair use doesn’t exist and always protected.

Lower prices and better quality is meaningless metrics when they aren’t correlated and market stakeholders use different metrics to make their decisions.

No need, it’s a contract. If you break it you can get sued. Nobody thinks companies are ever good actors.

Well I’m not disagreeing considering it’s what they already do.

Well sure, but that’s not here yet for 3 more months. When third party AppStores are available on iOS then Apple can do as they wish with apps sold through their store if they think it’s competitive.

But I would say if steam opens up they will very quickly steel the entire gaming market on iOS.

It’s exactly like this why a major harm such as “price” is not relevant to know if harm is caused. Especially when you can have two equal products but the expensive one just have a different perceived value of luxury so can be sold much more expensive.

Well I would say 300gb isn’t unlimited and misleading marketing that you should sue over. And yes we can do that in non eu members such as Norway or Ukraine and Switzerland depending on what EU carrier you use. And don’t forget EU is still made of individual independent countries.

Well better in the form that any networks and infrastructure must be open to the market under FRAND agreements

Well considering in the U.S. many regions are dominated by a single ISP who have quite literally a monopoly by virtue of owning the infrastructure. While in EU that was prevented from happening because everyone was allowed to use the same infrastructure because competition would be prevented from happening on the basis of of the quality of the service instead of where your address is located

Yes, it’s my opinion and I don’t have to agree. It’s one thing to regulate something that is owned by the government eg the spectrum. Quite another to micro regulate what should be market driven requirements.

 

[jlc1978]

No need, it’s a contract. If you break it you can get sued. Nobody thinks companies are ever good actors.

What contract, other than T&Cs, do you agree to when you get an app? And at any rate, a bada actor isn't likely to worry about niceties such as contracts.

It’s exactly like this why a major harm such as “price” is not relevant to know if harm is caused. Especially when you can have two equal products but the expensive one just have a different perceived value of luxury so can be sold much more expensive.

I'm talking about the same goods. Regulations that result in higher prices than what would be a competitive one harm consumers. I'm not anti-regulation, just realize not all regulation is good for the consumer but rather benefits corporate profits at their expense.

Well considering in the U.S. many regions are dominated by a single ISP who have quite literally a monopoly by virtue of owning the infrastructure. While in EU that was prevented from happening because everyone was allowed to use the same infrastructure because competition would be prevented from happening on the basis of of the quality of the service instead of where your address is located

While some sparesly populated ones may have issues, some 97% have access to three or more ISPs.

And I hope to god you don’t have data caps on your landline provided broadband services and have actual unlimited data as a baseline

It doesn't and I do, plus the contract guarantees no price increases.

Well sure, but that’s not here yet for 3 more months. When third party AppStores are available on iOS then Apple can do as they wish with apps sold through their store if they think it’s competitive.

I doubt any App Store beyond one run by another big player will offer the customer base and pricing/services Apple does.

But I would say if steam opens up they will very quickly steel the entire gaming market on iOS.

Will be interesting to see and how Steam prices apps. The next few years will be interesting to watch as things shake out.

Personally, if I were an iOS developer I'd be more worried about the potential impact of side loading on piracy and how I will try to protect my revenue stream by making changes to my business model; such as going from fixed price to subscription.