Apple's iMessage May Dodge EU Regulatory Demand for Interoperability

[scorpio vega]

Not the android fans being disappointed lol

 

[scorpio vega]

Apple is embracing RCS next year — what’s the problem?

Android users want to be validated. Blue bubbles validates them I suppose.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

Still not sure I want to trust the reverse engineering of one person of necessarily limited experience.

What exactly are you trusting? Either the messages are delivered or they are not.

The only real trust point is whether they are using some relay server to transmit your messages to Apple, which would mean no end-to-end encryption. Luckily, their implementation is open source, and if they were doing this, it would be overwhelmingly obvious from the code (doesn't take a security researcher). They aren't. Your messages are being sent directly to Apple.

 

[Carrotcruncher]

So a gatekeeper e. g. META with WhatsApp can only request another gatekeeper service to interoperate with one another? What is even the point then if there isnt another company deemed a gatekeeper (for messages)? Is META supposed to interoperate with itself? also, didnt the EU actually forbid a while back for META to use its data between WhatsApp, Instagram and Facebook??? yet now they are supposed to work between each other as a gatekeeper?

Yes but the EU always works like this what it does doesn't make any sense at all, once you realise that everything makes perfect sense ! 😂😂😂

 

[gund1234]

iOS is anti competitive, EU should force Apple to work with Linux community, Google and Microsoft so that customers can choose any OS they want.
and Apple should ship iPhones with no OS so that customers can install what ever they want during setup.

Apple designing their own M, A series processors is also anticompetitive, EU should force Apple to share their designs and processors with other computer and phone manufacturers.
this would improve performance of competitors phones and laptops, people will have wider choice.

 

[gund1234]

What exactly are you trusting? Either the messages are delivered or they are not.

The only real trust point is whether they are using some relay server to transmit your messages to Apple, which would mean no end-to-end encryption. Luckily, their implementation is open source, and if they were doing this, it would be overwhelmingly obvious from the code (doesn't take a security researcher). They aren't. Your messages are being sent directly to Apple.

i think if you don't sync between devices then they do store iMessages in their server, if you don't then they don't keep messages.
I think FBI wanted some iMessages from some one's phone Apple couldn't give it to them becasue messages were not synced or backed-up to Apple server.

 

[gund1234]

I love it. I actually only have a few friends with Android and they're sick of it. Moving to iPhone. IM is so 1995. Hell, the older one gets the more well read one should become, not circling the drain of gossip.

there are lot of third party apps why use iMessages then ?
I use what's App when i want to chat with friends without iPhone.
there are pretty good options.
i think this whole iMessages and RCS issue is made up.

 

[d686546s]

So a gatekeeper e. g. META with WhatsApp can only request another gatekeeper service to interoperate with one another? What is even the point then if there isnt another company deemed a gatekeeper (for messages)? Is META supposed to interoperate with itself? also, didnt the EU actually forbid a while back for META to use its data between WhatsApp, Instagram and Facebook??? yet now they are supposed to work between each other as a gatekeeper?

No.

Any provider of a number-independent communication service can ask a provider of a number-independent communication service who is a gatekeeper to make their service interoperable.

 

[d686546s]

Yes but the EU always works like this what it does doesn't make any sense at all, once you realise that everything makes perfect sense ! 😂😂😂

So you're mocking a regulation you both misunderstood as not making 'any sense at all' and you think it's the EU's fault?

Fascinating.

 

[gund1234]

That sounded really cool when you wrote it, but of course the reality is your life is much safer because government regulation actually does protect you and the community. You don't have to go any further then your house, your community or your workplace to see the evidence.

limited government regulation is good.
in the city where i live they want to stop issuing permits for gas stoves, gas water heaters, gas home heating (HVAC), heating with electricity costs 2X gas. and electricity price has gone up by 200% in last 5 years.
if Gas water heater companies stop manufacturing then i am screwed.
I need to pull in 240V 30 amp electricity cables to where the heater is.
I have 100 amp electricity connection from service provider, i need to upgrade the connection, electricity wires are underground in my area, i heard that it will cost ~$50K to upgrade the main underground cable.
who is going to pay me this money ?

 

[gund1234]

Because messaging has a lock-in effect, where a messaging app is useless unless you can also convince everyone you communicate with to also use it. A virtually impossible task.

Interoperability ensures apps compete based on features, rather than having to use whatever app happens to be dominant in your region.

use What's App there is no lock-in, problem solved.

 

[gund1234]

Apple never had gold. WhatsApp was already big when iMessage/Facetime came about. The whole video calling was a novelty at that point as data was a limited resource. Not only that, people prefer texting, then calling and lastly video calling.

Not only that, WhatsApp made it simpler to text people around the world.

iMessages and Face Time existed on Macs before what's app came out.
What's App made it easier to message people with different phone OS.

 

[gund1234]

Yes. They know.
They are not US police officers.

US police officers are not regulating technology, EU government is.
So useless comparison.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Again, public keys are public. So if you have a Bob's private key, you can decrypt Bob's messages.

FWIW, your illustration is a description of generating a shared key for symmetric key encryption. Messaging systems such as iMessage generally use asymmetrical encryption.

https://www.cloudflare.com/learning/privacy/what-is-end-to-end-encryption/

It’s a simplification to illustrate the concept. Most android phones have a Secure Enclave. But remember that if they can acces encryption keys then way more pressing security issues are at hand.

Accessing a computer network without permission is illegal.

Can you prove they are accessing anything? Because as It’s described everything is done on device.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

The (private) key is very much not useless to have. Your metaphor also is false, it‘s not two parts of a key, it‘s 2 separate keys with separate purposes.
The encryption works like this: your message is encrypted using the public key, which anyone can obtain and is essentially publicly listed next to your name. The public key encryption is a one-way mechanism, you can only encrypt something that way. That‘s where the second, the private key, comes into play. It never leaves your device and is the single key to unlock anything that‘s been encrypted with your public key.

In real world scenarios, obtaining the private key from a compromised device (e.g. Beeper mini user) allows the thief to decrypt all incoming encrypted messages the device receives (at least the ones that match the private keys companion public key), but NOT decrypt any messages sent to other devices (which may or may not be needed anyways when someone has access to your device and can grab the raw content before encryption anyways).

So yeah, your iPhone friends texting you are vulnerable to their sent messages being exposed.

That being said, you have bigger problems when someone manages to break into your device and grab private keys.

Well as you said in the end. If someone have access to their device it would be the same issue. But it’s a question of man in the middle attack.

And Apple provides even safer ways to do it.
And steeling the locally stored keys are a non issue in the wild

 

[d686546s]

iMessages and Face Time existed on Macs before what's app came out.
What's App made it easier to message people with different phone OS.

WhatsApp was released in in early to mid 2009, whereas iMessage was launched in October 2011. It didn't exist on Macs until 2012.

FaceTime (2010) however does in fact precede WhatsApp's voice calling feature, which was added in 2015.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

It requires more brain cells, but why do people think they need to use just _one_ messaging app, one browser, etc? We are living in a very diverse time of lots of apps. It just requires the skill to switch to the right app at the right time.

I'm curious how different chat networks would interoperate? If I jump into Messages, how would I choose and communicate with a WhatsApp user? Would they just magically show up in my Contacts list, and be identified by a WhatsApp icon? Could get messy and confusing.

Why should you use 10 apps that does the same function when one suffices?

Yes WhatsApp users are identified separately to messenger and iMessage users. It’s not confusing and perhaps look how it’s implemented first.

‎Beeper OLD VERSION

‎We have a new app! This is the old version of Beeper and is only listed on the App Store to provide critical updates to existing users. Get the new app from beeper.com/ios or search for "Beeper: All Chats, One App" by Automattic on the App Store. --- All your chats in one app. Beeper is...

apps.apple.com

 

[jav6454]

iMessages and Face Time existed on Macs before what's app came out.
What's App made it easier to message people with different phone OS.

That's called iChat not FaceTime/iMessage, and yet it was advertised for Macs-only, it was never offered as an app for Windows unless you downloaded AIM.

 

[truthsteve]

good. eu should stay out.

 

[gund1234]

Not the android fans being disappointed lol

i use iPhone and a Mac, i am happy with iMessages.
iMessage for people with iPhone, What's App with people who have an android.
I think all this iMessages vs RCS is overblown, not really fixing anything.

 

[CarAnalogy]

What exactly are you trusting? Either the messages are delivered or they are not.

The only real trust point is whether they are using some relay server to transmit your messages to Apple, which would mean no end-to-end encryption. Luckily, their implementation is open source, and if they were doing this, it would be overwhelmingly obvious from the code (doesn't take a security researcher). They aren't. Your messages are being sent directly to Apple.

Yeah the more I look into this, really the only aspect that seems unreliable is the message delivery notifications itself which they admit can be an issue. Everyone has posted good information about this and I've read more. Really it just makes me wonder why at this point Apple doesn't just do it themselves. I mean I know why, but when does the balance shift from being a competitive advantage to being a problem in its own right?

 

[DakotaGuy]

Apple is adopting RCS so the default phone number based Apple Messages and Google Messages communicate with features on par with iMessage fixes this problem. I don't see what the issue is once this is done. All of the 3rd party services are already platform agnostic.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

What is the purpose of competition if it doesn't add value at the same price or lower prices?

So what is the purpose of a market place if not to provide a competitive market where consumers benefit from price/value competition?

The value is competition itself by the merits the competition have.
And it’s up to the market and consumers to decide what that is, and the government should just make sure that opportunity exists. If a monopoly develops then that’s what the market wants.

Price and value is so subjective and meaningless as a measurement for the government to determine anything.

What do you see as the difference?

Eu cares deeply for the market to be competitive, and the ability of all companies to have the freedom to compete on equal terms to decide who is best. Everyone on the market are taken in to account. Doesn’t care at all if a monopoly is developed

USA: cares mostly about consumer harm along price, individual corporate freedoms.
Preventing monopolies to develop.

IIRC, France has attempted to protect local industry such as publishing from competition from non-French companies, as an example.

Countries often subsidize government entities or provide incentives for companies operating in their region.

And gets fined for it if it’s not equal for all parties because we have a single market. Honey exemption is a local company that is only active in an exclusively domestic market or historically relevant such as champagne or other specialties.

Not really, unfortunately.



They are. Liquor for example by forbidding import by non-retailers; which hurts competition.

Liquor can freely be imported by anyone. But not sold by everyone.

One never knows when a company will decide data collection on use habits is worth monetizing.

Doesn’t matter if it’s criminal to do so without clear consent. They can’t force users to give information away.

Eu have very strong privacy laws and one Supreme Court ruling almost made Facebook or any other American social media illegal to operate in EU because the law required servers storing EU user data to have the same or superior privacy laws in place.

And American servers aren’t legally allowed to be used because the lax laws.

Well, the EU has change the 1995 data protection law with the 2016 GDPR. My point was regulators like to regulate and will make changes over time to laws.

And what changed outside requirements of consent from users and the punishment of abusing user information?

So do you think, as messaging evolves, wat are considered essential functions will not change?

Nope as there nothing essential in it outside the function of communication. Everything else is customary to any

You need a better provider if that is mission critical.

It isn’t. I don’t use sms, unless I receive it from some form of 2FA.

 

[BaldiMac]

It’s a simplification to illustrate the concept.

No, it's not. It's a completely different encryption scheme.

Most android phones have a Secure Enclave. But remember that if they can acces encryption keys then way more pressing security issues are at hand.

This is a complete non-sequitur.

Can you prove they are accessing anything? Because as It’s described everything is done on device.

Are you kidding? Are you unaware that they access iMessage servers to send messages over iMessage servers??!?! How do you think this works?

Why should you use 10 apps that does the same function when one suffices?

Yes WhatsApp users are identified separately to messenger and iMessage users. It’s not confusing and perhaps look how it’s implemented first.

‎Beeper OLD VERSION

‎We have a new app! This is the old version of Beeper and is only listed on the App Store to provide critical updates to existing users. Get the new app from beeper.com/ios or search for "Beeper: All Chats, One App" by Automattic on the App Store. --- All your chats in one app. Beeper is...

apps.apple.com

As we've discussed multiple times, multiple services in the same app is very different than the DMA requirement for message service interoperability. Please stop spreading misinformation.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

No, it's not. It's a completely different encryption scheme.

Simplification not an essay.

This is a complete non-sequitur.

It’s a meaningless problem.

Are you kidding? Are you unaware that they access iMessage servers to send messages over iMessage servers??!?! How do you think this works?

They aren’t accessing anything. Unless you’re claiming it’s illegal to send text and use their official push APIs etc.

Apple servers receives the message and prossess it as a normal iMessage.

As we've discussed multiple times, multiple services in the same app is very different than the DMA requirement for message service interoperability. Please stop spreading misinformation.

If you actually read the linked iOS Application I’m talking about what beeper does as a service and completely separate from the DMA.

Beeper mini is a separate android app with iMessage integrated with the new function.

Beeper messenger will be updated with this superior implementation of iMessage in the near future.