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Apple's Mac Pro business practices scare me
- Thread starter wankey
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There's probably a 3rd category of people (like me) who are tech-savvy, not pro-sumers, and want a desktop they can keep and upgrade for years without buying totally new one.
The only reason I own a mac pro is because 1) in 2006 when I bought it, it was a good deal and 2) when I bought it, I was self-employed as an IT guy.
The problem is there are way too few of us and Apple can't give us what we want without ceasing their ripping off of pro-sumers or undercutting iMac sales.
Also: Gamers WOULD buy macs if they knew they could run windows and actually upgrade their videocards someday. The Mac Pro would make a really overpriced gaming rig though.
Really, the only thing You shouldn't be able to upgrade with PC parts on the MP is the mobo. The graphics card could be hacked with some driver cleverness (as people have done here on this site). For a gamer, that'd be alright. The price tag, however, is not alright.
YOU say there's not enough customers. There's a lot of people who would buy an i7 minitower. The iMac sucks and the Mac Pro is outrageously expensive overkill.
Really? How many do you know? I barely know anyone who wants an iMac, much less any kind of tower. They all want laptops, whether Mac or not.
Yeah, most consumers buy laptops now.
Actually with invention of iPad, there's a new category that use iMac with iPad.
I know I stuck with a Cube for 9 years because Apple still does not offer a replacement.
I only bought a 15" MBP because Apple killed the ExpressCard and the removable battery (I rushed to get the old model of course).
No Blu Ray, either. With Apple it's all about using old tech nowadays.
Here's a quick summary to support my claim (not exactly the same specs but very close)...
Mini Desktops:
Dell Zino HD: Starts at $249
Mac Mini: Starts at $699
All-in-ones:
Dell Studio 19 All in One: Starts at $399
iMac: Starts at $1199
Low-end laptop:
Dell Inspiron 15: Starts at $399
MacBook: Starts at $999
High-end laptop:
Dell Studio 17: Starts at $749
MacBook Pro 17: Starts at $2299
Mobile Phone:
Dell: Starts at FREE
Apple: Starts at $99
MP3 Player 8GB:
Dell/SanDisk: $59
Apple: $149
Quad Core Workstation:
Dell T3500: Starts at $1239
Mac Pro: Starts at $2499
So actually, the Mac Pro has the lowest difference at double the price of any other product category Apple makes where the difference can be 3x or more. In fact, if Apple priced the Mac Pro like they do their other products, the entry level quad would be $3600 or so.
Again, this is not news, nor appologetic, it is how Apple positions themselves in the market and you either see the value or you buy something else.
These threads are becoming wearisome.
Vote with your dollars. will either watch this happen and respond or they won't. End of story.
Vote with your dollars. will either watch this happen and respond or they won't. End of story.
People need to stop complaining about how 3 GB of RAM and a 640 GB drive doesn't cut it for professionals. Most people who buy a Mac Pro will upgrade those themselves anyways. And I think that part of the price difference (definitely not all) is for the OS and reliability.
YOU don't have a clue what you are talking about by saying that!!! Yet again blabbing away TOTALLY missing the whole point of a Mac Pro....
I'm not yet the Mac fanboi, but i do like my iMac. That said, if I were to have another computer not made by Apple, I would probably homebuild.
I built my iMac's predecessor back in 2003 or so. I had easily double the computing power and hard drive space of comparably-priced desktop towers at the time (thanks NewEgg and AMD), was able to transplant parts from earlier PCs for further cost savings, and had the satisfaction of managing to get it right the first time. This homebuilt PC is still running quite well, in fact.
YOU don't have a clue what you are talking about by saying that!!! Yet again blabbing away TOTALLY missing the whole point of a Mac Pro....
Umm...I have had Mac Pros and have built my own machines. The guy is right. Home built machines are basically the best machines around (assuming the person knows what they are doing). You get better parts, and it's assembled by hand by a skilled person, not mass produced in a factory with slave labor.
What IS the point of a Mac Pro? To have a good desktop with OSX. It is not some special machine like so many Apple fans seem to like to believe. It's an incredibly standard machine. On the PC side it would be quite underpowered. I'm really confused as to what you think the "point" of a Mac Pro is. Do you even have one? Have you ever had one? They are the best Macs out there, and at the same time are absolutely nothing special...
I got my MP march of last year, and I'm still happy it's the fastest Mac out available, but there is a new one coming, and that's the best time to buy, and yes, it will last for a few years,,, but you buy your pc clone, and everything changes so fast, including the hacks and protections you need just to keep it running,,,
I dunno why people continue to make these kind of remarks. It's like saying, people need to stop complaining that they're paying for 10 bucks for 1 gallon of oil while the rest of the world pays 10 bucks for 10 gallons of oil. You can easily buy the extra 9 gallon of oil for a measly 9 bucks after you've spent the first 10 bucks on 1 gallon.
3GB ram is pitiful and so is 640gb. Apple should be continuously updating these aspects of the computer so that at least price parity is good enough. In other words, keeping these as minimum as possible is purely so that the bean counters can counter extra beans at the end of every week when ram and harddrive prices drop.
And please, Power Macs are as reliable as a Dell workstation. Considering it's not a portable device, and it's parts all come from the same factory with suicidal workers.
OS costs 129. That certainly doesn't mean Apple can charge a $1000 premium.
If they keep it up, it'll be pretty sad, because the premium is continuously increasing as time goes on. Unless they implement some sort of incremental ugprade for later versions, the MacPro's will remain an incredibly niche product.
Another bunch of silliness. Not true at all. The worst part of owning a Mac is being grouped in with this kind of Mac contingent.
Another bunch of silliness. Not true at all. The worst part of owning a Mac is being grouped in with this kind of Mac contingent.
lol, I think these people will thinks Macs run on fairy dust and that similiar computers don't compare because they don't have the fairy dust in them. Even though the same components are in both computers, except the case looks a bit shinier.
The "Skilled Person" is a biassed point, just how many people or corporations do you actually know that build a hackintosh dual Xeon computer to use for there livelihoods?
The Mac Pro is in NO way underpowered, if you think that then you have never used it for it's intended purpose, beyond email and internet... It has dual Xeons for a reason, not for the name.
What does weather or not I have owned one or own one have to do with it? Does it mean I am not able to understand the target market for the Mac Pro?
The point of the Mac Pro is: A workstation class product aimed at professionals from single individuals to multi national corporations, it's a powerful computer that is reliable and has very good customer service back up and it runs Mac OSX.
If you use Photoshop CS or Final Cut Pro or logic as an example in a professional manor then the Mac Pro is aimed at that audience.
It is aimed at a market where time is money so they want a reliable machine, a marker that doesn't give a stuff if a new one is around the corner because they NEED one NOW.
It was even said in the very first post on this thread, I use a Mac Pro at work........
That's it's point, not for someones bedroom, for serious professional use...
I am more then happy that you can build your own, congratulations, but to completely forget or ignore the wider picture of just who uses a Mac Pro is ignorant.
Yeah pretty much. All the retail stuff is made by the same factories. The best quality parts are made by the third parties who cater to system builders (they generally use the best PCB's, capactiors, connections blah blah blah), while the companies like Apple and Dell try to get things as cheaply as possible, generally sacrificing quality. Now if Apple allowed system builders to install OSX officially, then they would have something.
Some people feel that if Apple were to sell their systems with large amounts of storage or memory they would be paying Apple prices for it. They would rather be sold the minimum and then buy what they need from a third party; getting to choose based on their usage requirements, component quality and purchase in a market where there is pricing competition and discounts to be had.
Ugh...you're calling me ignorant? Right, I use my machines for email and internet. I don't do system and web dev, HD video editing, music composition...none of those things.
Why in the heck would I settle for a 2.66 quad i7 920 for 2500 dollars?! That is ABSURD. That machine IS extremely underpowered when you could build a hex 3.33 for the same price on the PC side, and overclock it to 4ghz, easily I'm sure. All those "pro apps" you mention like the Adobe suite? Better on Windows 7. FCP is behind the curve. So where does that leave Mac users like us?You're not getting it. The Mac Pro is underpowered relative to a similarly priced PC. That would be "extremely underpowered." Your "purpose" of the Mac Pro is right out of marketing and ignores the reality of the situation: It's currently creamed by the quad iMac (if we are talking base standards here). Do you get that? Just because it's "branded" a workstation and uses ECC memory, doesn't mean it's the best, most reliable machine money can buy. It's certainly not.
People are just too emotionally attached to Apple, bottom line. I like their stuff, it's all I use, but I don't give two craps about the company, because the company doesn't give two craps about any of us. I want to use the best tools. Apple is lucky they have the iPhone ecosystem, or hardly any devs would be doing what I do I imagine.
The only thing that's ignorant is thinking the current Mac Pro is some awesome machine. It was a rip off the day it was released (at least the base quad), what could it possibly be now? The whole thing would be laughable if it weren't so pathetic.
Macs are overpriced, but that's nothing new. However you simply cannot compare them to Dell products in most cases. For instance the Dell Studio 17 vs. the Macbook Pro:
When the Dell breaks (and there is no expensive warranty upgrade added), you have to call in the error, argue with them over phone, wait at home while someone picks it up, wait at home when it gets sent back and then most likely send it back in.
Little story here: My girlfriend has a studio 15 and we sent it in (still within 1 year warranty) to have the display fixed because it had a pretty large area that was somewhat lighter than the rest:
When it came back after the first repair, the "new" display was flickering and bright yellow, the laptop had been dropped and some mobo damage occurred, so we sent it back in (took about 2 weeks and a good 7 hours of calls to get it done).
When it came back after the second repair, the display was badly fitted (uneven), the case was horribly scratched (like some used a screw driver to do it) and the mobo had not been changed. So it took another couple of hours to talk to support center (they have no own number, you get a different guy every time and you have to explain the entire story over and over again). After hours of talking to them, they agreed to send a technician to us, he replaced the screen, case and mobo and left quickly. He forgot to tape the CPU vent cables down so they obstructed the CPU (hi thermal shutdown) so we had to call again, and after 2 months we finally had it fixed. No chance of getting reimbursed for your troubles, no support and no idea of what they are doing.
Sure I could do it myself, but that would void the warranty.
If you Apple fails, you take it to a store (granted you have one close by) and you will have it fixed in no time. Most of the time you get a little bonus. I know that what they charge is a lot, but believe me, I would pay $2000 any day just so that I don't have to talk to the idiots of Dell support again.
Of course I use my Macs to generate income and I wouldn't be able to work without one (at least not for 8 weeks). Sure you can buy upgrades when it comes to customer support, but they do cost quite a lot for Dells.
Of course Dells are nice computers if you just want to game or do light word processing and watch an occasional movie, but the second my income depended on them, I'd shoot myself.
That being said, the Mac Pro is way overpriced, I have been in the marked for one since late November 09 and I didn't buy one because I couldn't justify paying the price (there are a couple of them where I work and I just use those for heavy rendering and whenever I specifically need the Kona). Everything else I currently do on a MBP or an IMac (far from superb, but the current MP is just too overpriced)
Overall Macs are generally more reliable than PCs, part of the reason people are willing to pay the extra money, mainly when it comes to their notebooks considering those are their most popular.
I didn't say they are charging a $1000 premium just for the OS, all I said was that part of the price difference is for the combination of both the OS and reliability.
And when has Apple lowered the price of their computers as the price of the components go down? Definitely not something Apple is known for.
I can actually get some work done on a MacPro
Well, I dunno, but, having used Mac products for the last 4 years is refreshing because--unlike a Windows machine--I can actually sit down and get some work done...without having some blinking icon in the system tray, a perpetual antivirus update message, a Windows Update emergency patch, what have you. This drove me nuts.
On the contrary, with my old (2006) MacPro 1,1, I can still batch edit 50 Mb Camera Raw files in PS, along with site edits in Dreamweaver or Fireworks files without missing a beat. Yes, this machine cost double what my innumerable PC's did, but it's worth it to me. Maybe because I am female I am more concerned with reliability...specifically, I can work on my MP for long periods of time without distractions or OS "incidents" rearing their ugly heads.
Well, I dunno, but, having used Mac products for the last 4 years is refreshing because--unlike a Windows machine--I can actually sit down and get some work done...without having some blinking icon in the system tray, a perpetual antivirus update message, a Windows Update emergency patch, what have you. This drove me nuts.
On the contrary, with my old (2006) MacPro 1,1, I can still batch edit 50 Mb Camera Raw files in PS, along with site edits in Dreamweaver or Fireworks files without missing a beat. Yes, this machine cost double what my innumerable PC's did, but it's worth it to me. Maybe because I am female I am more concerned with reliability...specifically, I can work on my MP for long periods of time without distractions or OS "incidents" rearing their ugly heads.