Apple's Mac Sales Down in Q3 2018 Amid a Lack of Updates

[bladerunner2000]

Really? So I can just buy the parts, put them together, install MacOS and it just works?

Riiiight?

Get the right motherboard, and yeah, it's easy. Why are you so shocked?

 

[Detnator]

Get the right motherboard, and yeah, it's easy. Why are you so shocked?

Because everyone else I’ve ever heard chime in on this topic says otherwise - ie. that there are all kinds of config files you have to tweak etc. to make it work, very update breaks it all, and other points like that.

But hey if you’re right then great. I’m no authority on it and I’m only going by what else I’ve read on this forum and other locations about it. So I can’t reliably disagree with you.

Perhaps someone else here with more experience than me could comment either way.
[doublepost=1539613958][/doublepost]

Apple does not care about the computer itself. they care about the money.

Thats the difference, Jobs cared about creating the best computer ever. Tim does not. Tim Cares about the highest revenue ever.

I really think there is a place for a 3rd competitor now in the desktop/laptop computer market, some one that can create a decent OS and solid hardware like Apple used to.

I’d agree with each of these statements.

I’m ranting elsewhere in arguments that appear to be defending Apple except I’m not. Im just defending their “why” and arguing against the illogic of others lashing out at Apple.

But these statements here are accurate I think. Apple is indeed a lot more about the money than the computer now I think. And a new player might do well. It won’t be google or Microsoft though. With All the issues with Apple’s hardware choices a lot of customers love them largely because of their focus on security and privacy.

Not the only reason but one reason they cost more is because they are only selling the hardware. They’re not “selling” their customers like google does for example.

I think for any newcomer to compete with Apple, they’ll have to prioritize that as well.

 

[theluggage]

If a $100 hub is an “expensive” necessity added on to your $5000 laptop then you’re buying the wrong laptop no matter what.
The alternative of course is that they include all those ports back in the Mac and then the Mac costs at least $100 more.

$5000 laptop? Well, yeah, you can spend that much if you go for all the stupid-expensive SSD and RAM options, but its hardly a representative price. The ports issue is even worse on the $1300 non-TB models with only two ports.

A $100 USB-c hub just shares a single USB3.1 lane amongst however many USB-A ports, card readers and ethernet adapters it has, and if you connect a 4k@60Hz display via the hub, that drops to USB 2 speeds. That's a downgrade unless you spring for a $300 Thunderbolt 3 hub. Make that two if you want to commute from home to office.

$100 more to keep the ports? The price of MBPs went up when they removed the ports (not saying that is connected).

“Apple isn’t offering ... have done in the past.” With the exception of the 17” MBP which didn’t sell so they killed it, how is that line remotely accurate?

Oh, lets see, in 2012 I could have had:

• Retina MacBook Pro (released in 2012) - the 'way of the future' sans mechanical drives and ethernet...
• Classic MacBook Pro (updated in 2012 to the same CPU as the rMBP) - if I still needed my optical drive and/or a shedload of internal storage
• MacBook Air 13" or 11" if I wanted portability over ports (updated 2012)
• Mac Mini (updated 2012) - all the way up to quad core/server version
• Mac Pro "cheesegrater" for the true "pickup truck" option - also updated in 2012.
• iMac

In October 2018 I can have:

• MBP with touchbar (ultra-portable with 4 ports that need adapters to connect with most existing peripherals)
• iMac Pro
• ...or various of old models not updated in the past 12 months, and some not updated since 2013/2014, some of which are probably for the chop soon.

Seriously - go look at the sea of red "Don't Buy" tags in the MacRumors Buyers Guide - and the only things with vaguely credible rumors are the "affordable" laptop and the (irrelevant here) iPad Pro. The current policy seems to be throw everything at the highest-margin product and let the other options wither until they are embarrassingly out of date.

What I want in a larger non-super-slim MBP seems to be very different to what you want in one. You want more ports and a 17” display. I want more ram, more & faster processors/cores.

...but once you make a larger, non-super-slim laptop with space to cool a better CPU/GPU you'll probably find that you have more space for extra ports anyway. Good starting point would be a modified 2015 rMBP design, with newer CPUs, less thermal throttling and the same ports except 2xUSB-C/TB3 in place of the TB2 ones (I'll tolerate needing a new cable for DisplayPort) but Apple really ought to be able to do better than that. Problem with the 2016 model is that some of the potential benefits of the newer CPU/GPU were negated by the extra thermal throttling and smaller battery needed to slim down the case.

The only real bone of contention is if you really, really must have 4 TB3 ports running in TB data mode at full bandwidth and consuming - what is it, 2 PCIe lanes each? That's overkill for a mobile processor/GPU - the only reason most people would need that many ports is because they're forced to "waste" some of them with displays and USB-2/3 class devices that could work just as well in regular ports.

It’s like trying to understand why BMW doesn’t make a truck.

Well, they thought long and hard about it:
https://www.motor1.com/news/268364/bmw-rules-out-pickup-production/

...and their business reasons seem to have a lot to do with technical, motor-industry related details about chassis types and regional markets that have nothing to do with computers. Oh, and unlike computers, potential pickup-truck buyers forced to go to Mercedes Benz won't be nearly as likely to ditch their other BMW vehicles to avoid having to support two independent driving systems.

 

[Detnator]

$5000 laptop? Well, yeah, you can spend that much if you go for all the stupid-expensive SSD and RAM options, but its hardly a representative price. The ports issue is even worse on the $1300 non-TB models with only two ports.

A $100 USB-c hub just shares a single USB3.1 lane amongst however many USB-A ports, card readers and ethernet adapters it has, and if you connect a 4k@60Hz display via the hub, that drops to USB 2 speeds. That's a downgrade unless you spring for a $300 Thunderbolt 3 hub. Make that two if you want to commute from home to office.

$100 more to keep the ports? The price of MBPs went up when they removed the ports (not saying that is connected).



Oh, lets see, in 2012 I could have had:

• Retina MacBook Pro (released in 2012) - the 'way of the future' sans mechanical drives and ethernet...
• Classic MacBook Pro (updated in 2012 to the same CPU as the rMBP) - if I still needed my optical drive and/or a shedload of internal storage
• MacBook Air 13" or 11" if I wanted portability over ports (updated 2012)
• Mac Mini (updated 2012) - all the way up to quad core/server version
• Mac Pro "cheesegrater" for the true "pickup truck" option - also updated in 2012.
• iMac

In October 2018 I can have:

• MBP with touchbar (ultra-portable with 4 ports that need adapters to connect with most existing peripherals)
• iMac Pro
• ...or various of old models not updated in the past 12 months, and some not updated since 2013/2014, some of which are probably for the chop soon.

Seriously - go look at the sea of red "Don't Buy" tags in the MacRumors Buyers Guide - and the only things with vaguely credible rumors are the "affordable" laptop and the (irrelevant here) iPad Pro. The current policy seems to be throw everything at the highest-margin product and let the other options wither until they are embarrassingly out of date.



...but once you make a larger, non-super-slim laptop with space to cool a better CPU/GPU you'll probably find that you have more space for extra ports anyway. Good starting point would be a modified 2015 rMBP design, with newer CPUs, less thermal throttling and the same ports except 2xUSB-C/TB3 in place of the TB2 ones (I'll tolerate needing a new cable for DisplayPort) but Apple really ought to be able to do better than that. Problem with the 2016 model is that some of the potential benefits of the newer CPU/GPU were negated by the extra thermal throttling and smaller battery needed to slim down the case.

The only real bone of contention is if you really, really must have 4 TB3 ports running in TB data mode at full bandwidth and consuming - what is it, 2 PCIe lanes each? That's overkill for a mobile processor/GPU - the only reason most people would need that many ports is because they're forced to "waste" some of them with displays and USB-2/3 class devices that could work just as well in regular ports.




Well, they thought long and hard about it:
https://www.motor1.com/news/268364/bmw-rules-out-pickup-production/

...and their business reasons seem to have a lot to do with technical, motor-industry related details about chassis types and regional markets that have nothing to do with computers. Oh, and unlike computers, potential pickup-truck buyers forced to go to Mercedes Benz won't be nearly as likely to ditch their other BMW vehicles to avoid having to support two independent driving systems.

Know what dude? You’re still not listening. Every point you make twists everything I say around. I’ve agreed with half your points despite that. But you still keep missing the bottom line. So I’m done arguing with you.

Just stop whining for God’s sake.

 

[Hanson Eigilson]

1. Apple is pushing one standard for all future ports and the only way they’ll succeed is limit all the other port options on their machines just as they did, successfully, in the late 90’s which brought us the beloved USB-A in the first place. But end to end solutions that use those new ports etc do exist and Apple’s approach is that while upgrading to your new Mac you should also upgrade to those.

USB-A originated at Intel and had wide industry support from very early on, Apple had little influence on development and less influence on the market at the time. The notion that Apple somehow made USB-A succeed is as absurd as the idea that they need to push USB-C that heavy handed at all, simple create a solid standard, implement it and allow for a transition period instead of all this nonsense.

 

[theluggage]

USB-A originated at Intel and had wide industry support from very early on, Apple had little influence on development and less influence on the market at the time.

I think the truth lies somewhere between the two extremes. As usual with Apple, the mantra is "Apple didn't invent X but they played a significant role in popularising it".

I had a PC with USB ports around that time - but there wasn't much available that used them so they sat empty. USB stuff really started to appear in quantity after the high-profile launch of the USB-only iMac.

There was also much circumstantial evidence that the first flush of USB peripherals were partly inspired by Apple:

...thats the only bit of turn-of-the-century USB kit I have knocking around, but translucent cases were de rigeur for early USB peripherals (yes, the parallel port and SCSI versions were opaque). Note: no, I'm not complaining about needing an adapter to plug this particular bit of kit into a Mac - I'm sure that my collection of Zip discs will have rotted away by now, they weren't that reliable when new...

Thing is, its very easy to argue that none of Apple's "achievements" were original - personal computers, graphical user interfaces (even disregarding Xerox, I believe Windows 1 was out first), laser printers, "MP3" players (existed before iPod), Smartphones... until you look a bit deeper and see why the idea was going nowhere until Apple came along, refined it at turned it into a desirable product.

Whats changed now is that progress has really slowed c.f. the 80s,90s and 00s and a lot of 5-10 year-old technologies are still "good enough". If you've lived through 3 decades of rapid change and improvement, its not that you're resistant to change, but that you have very high expectations of the advantages that change should bring. The actual advantage being offered by things like USB-C (unless its on a smartphone) just isn't worth the inconvenience of changing. I guess a corollary of that is that if you've ever travelled with a Powerbook G3, the difference in size and weight between a 2015 rMBP and a 2016 MBP is barely significant.

 

[kazmac]

I think the truth lies somewhere between the two extremes. As usual with Apple, the mantra is "Apple didn't invent X but they played a significant role in popularising it".

I had a PC with USB ports around that time - but there wasn't much available that used them so they sat empty. USB stuff really started to appear in quantity after the high-profile launch of the USB-only iMac.

There was also much circumstantial evidence that the first flush of USB peripherals were partly inspired by Apple:
View attachment 795418
...thats the only bit of turn-of-the-century USB kit I have knocking around, but translucent cases were de rigeur for early USB peripherals (yes, the parallel port and SCSI versions were opaque). Note: no, I'm not complaining about needing an adapter to plug this particular bit of kit into a Mac - I'm sure that my collection of Zip discs will have rotted away by now, they weren't that reliable when new...

Thing is, its very easy to argue that none of Apple's "achievements" were original - personal computers, graphical user interfaces (even disregarding Xerox, I believe Windows 1 was out first), laser printers, "MP3" players (existed before iPod), Smartphones... until you look a bit deeper and see why the idea was going nowhere until Apple came along, refined it at turned it into a desirable product.

Whats changed now is that progress has really slowed c.f. the 80s,90s and 00s and a lot of 5-10 year-old technologies are still "good enough". If you've lived through 3 decades of rapid change and improvement, its not that you're resistant to change, but that you have very high expectations of the advantages that change should bring. The actual advantage being offered by things like USB-C (unless its on a smartphone) just isn't worth the inconvenience of changing. I guess a corollary of that is that if you've ever travelled with a Powerbook G3, the difference in size and weight between a 2015 rMBP and a 2016 MBP is barely significant.

Zip drives, I liked the idea those but spot on with them not being reliable.

Thanks for posting that and you’re correct about the the slow progress too.

 

[Detnator]

I think the truth lies somewhere between the two extremes. As usual with Apple, the mantra is "Apple didn't invent X but they played a significant role in popularising it".

I had a PC with USB ports around that time - but there wasn't much available that used them so they sat empty. USB stuff really started to appear in quantity after the high-profile launch of the USB-only iMac.

There was also much circumstantial evidence that the first flush of USB peripherals were partly inspired by Apple:
View attachment 795418
...thats the only bit of turn-of-the-century USB kit I have knocking around, but translucent cases were de rigeur for early USB peripherals (yes, the parallel port and SCSI versions were opaque). Note: no, I'm not complaining about needing an adapter to plug this particular bit of kit into a Mac - I'm sure that my collection of Zip discs will have rotted away by now, they weren't that reliable when new...

Thing is, its very easy to argue that none of Apple's "achievements" were original - personal computers, graphical user interfaces (even disregarding Xerox, I believe Windows 1 was out first), laser printers, "MP3" players (existed before iPod), Smartphones... until you look a bit deeper and see why the idea was going nowhere until Apple came along, refined it at turned it into a desirable product.

Whats changed now is that progress has really slowed c.f. the 80s,90s and 00s and a lot of 5-10 year-old technologies are still "good enough". If you've lived through 3 decades of rapid change and improvement, its not that you're resistant to change, but that you have very high expectations of the advantages that change should bring. The actual advantage being offered by things like USB-C (unless its on a smartphone) just isn't worth the inconvenience of changing. I guess a corollary of that is that if you've ever travelled with a Powerbook G3, the difference in size and weight between a 2015 rMBP and a 2016 MBP is barely significant.

That’s a pretty great assessment and explanation in my opinion. Especially the paragraph:

“... its very easy to argue that none of Apple's "achievements" were original [...] until you look a bit deeper and see why the idea was going nowhere until Apple came along, refined it at turned it into a desirable product.”

That about sums it up better than I’ve ever heard it said. Nice job.

Although for the record, Windows 1 was released Nov 1985, more than 2 years after the Lisa and nearly 2 years after the original Mac.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_1.0

 

[tubular]

I think the truth lies somewhere between the two extremes. As usual with Apple, the mantra is "Apple didn't invent X but they played a significant role in popularising it".

I had a PC with USB ports around that time - but there wasn't much available that used them so they sat empty. USB stuff really started to appear in quantity after the high-profile launch of the USB-only iMac.

There was also much circumstantial evidence that the first flush of USB peripherals were partly inspired by Apple:
View attachment 795418
...thats the only bit of turn-of-the-century USB kit I have knocking around, but translucent cases were de rigeur for early USB peripherals (yes, the parallel port and SCSI versions were opaque). Note: no, I'm not complaining about needing an adapter to plug this particular bit of kit into a Mac - I'm sure that my collection of Zip discs will have rotted away by now, they weren't that reliable when new...

Thing is, its very easy to argue that none of Apple's "achievements" were original - personal computers, graphical user interfaces (even disregarding Xerox, I believe Windows 1 was out first), laser printers, "MP3" players (existed before iPod), Smartphones... until you look a bit deeper and see why the idea was going nowhere until Apple came along, refined it at turned it into a desirable product.

Whats changed now is that progress has really slowed c.f. the 80s,90s and 00s and a lot of 5-10 year-old technologies are still "good enough". If you've lived through 3 decades of rapid change and improvement, its not that you're resistant to change, but that you have very high expectations of the advantages that change should bring. The actual advantage being offered by things like USB-C (unless its on a smartphone) just isn't worth the inconvenience of changing. I guess a corollary of that is that if you've ever travelled with a Powerbook G3, the difference in size and weight between a 2015 rMBP and a 2016 MBP is barely significant.

Found some unopened Zip disks on an office shelf a year ago. Still in their shrink wrap.

 

[theluggage]

Although for the record, Windows 1 was released Nov 1985, more than 2 years after the Lisa and nearly 2 years after the original Mac.

You're right - I've just checked and it was announced in 1983 (and started in 1981 before the launch of the Lisa) which must be what had got the idea into my head. Still, it was roughly contemporaneous and it was possible to claim with a straight face that it was developed independently by Microsoft and maybe a sign of where the industry was heading without Apple... Its a bit like the pre-iPhone incarnation of Android in that respect (yeeess... it was always going to have a full multi-touch interface *cough*).

 

[dilbert99]

Interestingly enough these people said the same last year and were off by over a million units. These are guesstimates that cant account for what they sell in their own stores or the Apple store.

You can get unit sales to 2018 from Apples financials.

 

[danallen]

I’m going to take issue with this rant. All of that is your opinion. And it is a niche opinion.

Sure. Many people her on MR agree with you but the vast majority of the market, including myself, don’t.

For one, all this whining about ports is insane. I use all four thunderbolt 3 ports on my MacBook Pro - as Thundetbolt 3 ports. I need the performance they bring and I have no need for any other ports. People saying “it’s a pro machine so it should have more types of ports” don’t get it. No, it’s a pro machine so it should have PRO ports. That’s what TB3 is. HDMI can’t drive 5K. USB-A is slow - for a pro. If what you’re doing doesn’t benefit from the bandwidth coming out of 4x TB3 and/or if you’re the type of user who is concerned about the cost of TB3 then the MBP is not the right machine for you. But that doesn’t mean Apple has lost its way. It’s the PERFECT machine for the people it is designed for and that’s why they’re selling off the shelves, To THOSE people.

Same with upgradability. Everyone whining about that? See my other reply above. Apple saves billions on support nightmares because it builds complete solutions that work better than anything else in the market and doesn’t allow compatibility nightmares. Sell your old Mac, buy a new Mac. Done. That’s your “upgrade”. No stuffing around installing potentially incompatible crap. That’s how I’ve been “upgrading” for 15 years and it works.

Most of your points only show that it’s not the machine for you. So go buy the machine that is for you and let Apple keep making the machines I and plenty of other people need as they are.

That said, you do make a couple of valid or almost valid points:
1. The keyboard and dust issue. Ok they screwed that up. And hey all but admitted it. You can get the keyboard replaced at their cost for four years even without AppleCare. Quit complaining. The lack of travel issue is a non issue for most people. Most people (not MR readers except for myself) love it.
2. Touch Bar. I know some people love it so it wasn’t a mistake But for me it’s the one feature I think is pretty stupid. It should be optional.

Your other points:
3. TB3 see above.

4. The trackpad size is awesome and at least for me the palm rejection works fine. Perhaps they need to refine that if it’s not working for you but for goodness sake don’t make it small again.

5. Throttled? As you say they fixed it with a SOFTWARE update. So it was a software problem. Therefore the hardware is fine. So Windows or Linux? Still a software problem. (Then again if you want to run Windows or Linux why why are we even talking about this “crappy” Apple hardware?)

6. BTO upgrade prices? That’s just not true. Example. Upgrade from 512GB to 2TB SSD is $1200. The next 2TB is $2K. That’s $800 you’re getting for your original 512GB. Sure, those prices are pretty steep if it’s just about the parts but it’s about a lot more than that.

7. Upgradeability. Addressed above.

8. “Apple charges absurd prices for this.” No. Apple charges $380 for free repairs for 3 years (AppleCare). It’s insane to buy one of these things and keep it for more than one year without AppleCare. But I’m glad they don’t force AppleCare on us because sometimes I’ve enjoyed the option to sell and buy a new one within the first year. And if you’re keeping these things for more than three years then you don’t need the power of the new one in the first place. Don’t buy now what you need in 5 years intending to keep it that long. Spend less now and swap it for a new one in 2-3 years. That’s the “Apple” way and it works.

People just complain because they can’t get their heads out of the idea that they have to be able to tinker with it. No. You don’t. The world has changed. Move with it. Buy what you need now, use it, and then swap it for the newer one when you need that. And if that’s more than three years then you’re not the target market for this machine.

God I could go on and on. Some of you people here just don’t get it. But that’s your problem, not Apple’s, nor the problem of those of us who do get it.
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Sigh. Another port whiner who just doesn’t get it.

Agreed, the Touch Bar is a bit lame, but this is a PRO machine. SD cards are SLOW! HDMI can only just drive 4K it can’t drive 5K. Magsafe is available via USB-C (and no it’s not a dongle). “Requires a boatload of dongles just to function”? What dongles??

No it requires you to bring all your accessories out of the past which you can easily afford to do because you’re a PRO, right? PRO means this machine is a tool for you to make money! If you’re not using it for that then you’re not a pro. And if you are using it for that then you can afford to replace all your USB-A to USB-B cables for all your external slow backup drives with USB-C to USB-B cables and you don’t even have to update your drives. Although if you’re really a PRO then you’ll understand the benefits 4 thunderbolt 3 ports bring to a PRO machine and you’ll be using those ports to drive external NVMe drives and other devices that require that bandwidth. But you don’t. So you’re not a pro and this machine is not for you. But it is the right machine, with its 40Gb/s pro ports for true pros.

The real question is: What are you doing with this machine that needs “a boat load” of dongles for it to function?

No “port whiner” here has yet been able to give me a straight answer to that question. Can you?

If it just worked, there would no discussion.

The presence of the discussion is a result of not just working.

If you cannot see that Apple's ability to make computers fell off a cliff in late 2011, you are the guy on the deck of the Titanic telling everyone to calm down because "she is unsinkable."

But agreed, High Sierra and iOS 11 were pretty bad, bug-wise. And grossly outdated MBA and mini is pretty crappy. I really do hope they’re going to get the new Mac Pro right.

Objectively speaking, it is possible that after running zero for fifteen on their most recent new hardware, they will put together a new MacPro that will just work and sell at a non-crazyhigh price.

Objectively speaking, it is possible I could become president of the United States.

I am not planning for either.

p.s. Do you really know anyone who likes the touch bar, or did you just say that?

 

[madalin]

If you cannot see that Apple's ability to make computers fell off a cliff in late 2011, you are the guy on the deck of the Titanic telling everyone to calm down because "she is unsinkable."

This month for me happens the unimaginable. I witnesses the following discussion between a child (around 16 years old) and a parent wanting to buy an Mac Book Pro (i try to reproduce/translate approximately the discussion from another language):

- I don't want it!
- Why!??
- This is old people computer! It's not cool anymore...
- !??
- Well you have it, mother have it, gran-pa have it...
- Ok. What you would like instead?
- An **** I9 with **** graphic card and water cooling! (some unknown to me company name - i can't remember which one).

The day you hear that a brand is no longer cool anymore and it's targeted to old people... it's the beginning of the end for that brand.