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jeremiah256

macrumors 65816
Aug 2, 2008
1,444
1,169
Southern California
I switched to Windows in January 2017. I don't spend much time maintaining Windows. It updates itself about once a month. I hit up HP 2x a year for firmware and drivers and it's been good.

My homebuilt machine has needed a little more TLC but that's because at first I needed to remember how to do it all and some poor choices by me. But now it's also rock solid and updates about once a month.

Just picked up a Surface Pro (m3 version) and it's that iPad Apple should have made. It works great so far.

As much as I hate to say it, MS and it's partners are hitting it out of the par as of late while Apple is fumbling at bat.

I have both a Surface 3 (non-Pro) and a regular PC that I keep around. Both on Windows 10 Home Edition. In my experience, Windows 10 Home Edition is more...needy with regard to the attention (updates, using Edge, recommendations for games, requests for feedback) it needs than macOS. Are you on Home or Pro?
 

az431

Suspended
Sep 13, 2008
2,131
6,122
Portland, OR
A surprisingly balanced review from Macrumors.

A balanced review leads to more comments on a Mac forum from Windows fanboys, and therefore more advertising revenue.
[doublepost=1525743887][/doublepost]
As this review notes, these two machines are actually quite well-matched and, depending on your needs and tolerance for a different OS, could go either way. I always find it amusing that by far the best expression of Microsoft’s flawed-but-interesting idea of a hybrid tablet/laptop was only finally realised when ... it started making its own hardware. Apple copycats! ;)

The problem with Windows machines has never been the hardware, it is with the operating system.
 

TheBruno

macrumors member
Mar 29, 2018
66
88
Corvallis, OR, USA
My interest in Apple has come down to largely macOS on my iMac and my iPad Pro now. I keep an iPhone to speak with my other devices, but I'm largely indifferent to phones. The moment Apple screws up macOS is the only time I would consider switching back to a Windows desktop; and I have to say, they'd need to screw it up a lot for that to happen.
 

Juranja

macrumors newbie
May 7, 2018
1
0
I think it ultimately boils down to one's choice of preferred OS.... and for me it'll never be Windows
True, but it is a little bit more complex: do you need a keyboard... and for me (after experiencing the reliability of the butterfly keyboard)... aaaargh, we’re STUCK
 

mikegem

macrumors newbie
Apr 25, 2012
26
34
This article worries me.

I've avoided Windows since the Mac Classic. I have a mid-2015 MacBook Pro (and several other pre-2016 Macs) that work just great.

The recent decline in Apple's quality control, in both software and hardware, is significant and troubling. I don't want to buy a Windows machine, but I can't use a laptop whose keyboard can be disabled by a bit of dust. It's my livelihood. If my laptop doesn't work, I lose my home.

Dammit, what is Apple doing with all the cash it has? Can't it afford to hire 50 anal-compulsive QA/QC people to find these new product design problems? Oh - but I guess the issue is that Apple would have to give these people real authority over production - as in, we don't go to production with obvious unfixed problems. You know, empowering QA/QC with more than cosmetic power?

Guess I should consider a Surface. Sucks.
 

Tech198

Cancelled
Mar 21, 2011
15,915
2,151
This article worries me.

I've avoided Windows since the Mac Classic. I have a mid-2015 MacBook Pro (and several other pre-2016 Macs) that work just great.

The recent decline in Apple's quality control, in both software and hardware, is significant and troubling. I don't want to buy a Windows machine, but I can't use a laptop whose keyboard can be disabled by a bit of dust. It's my livelihood. If my laptop doesn't work, I lose my home.

Dammit, what is Apple doing with all the cash it has? Can't it afford to hire 50 anal-compulsive QA/QC people to find these new product design problems? Oh - but I guess the issue is that Apple would have to give these people real authority over production - as in, we don't go to production with obvious unfixed problems. You know, empowering QA/QC with more than cosmetic power?

Guess I should consider a Surface. Sucks.

It's a given. or a trade-off... Apple goes on more about the rigorous QA standards, but then issues arrive with hardware issues in the public later on so much so, you end up with an escalate of programs for replacement of eligible hardware between these dates.

If only their QA team was more strict, few programs may not have even existed. If other companies can do it without any problem, surly Apple can. There have been more programs offered over the years. You could say its just more problems, or more hardware, but how much more can you say before you start telling yourself "This is actually a decline"

one day we have to wake to what's actually happening instead of a company telling us only what they want users to know.
 
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mistasopz

macrumors 6502
Apr 14, 2006
382
1,576
We use surface books for work and they work pretty good. In the office I dock it to the surface dock and 2 external monitors. When we meet with clients or teach at conferences, it's easy to flip the screen around and close the lid and then write while projecting. The iPad just isn't in the cards for us because it isn't a full OS and can't run our software. The surface can perform all tasks without needing several pieces of hardware.
 

frank777

macrumors newbie
May 3, 2018
3
0



One of Apple's biggest competitors in the laptop space is arguably Microsoft, with its line of portable, productivity-focused Surface Book machines. Microsoft in November released its newest product, the Surface Book 2, a 2-in-1 PC that has quite a few selling points to entice Apple customers.

In our latest YouTube video, we took a look at the 15-inch Surface Book 2 and compared it to the 2016 15-inch MacBook Pro across a number of categories including build quality and design, key features, and overall usage experience for someone in the Apple ecosystem.


Both the Surface Book 2 and Apple's most recent MacBook Pro models are powerful machines with some of the latest technology in processor and graphics cards, so modern apps, games, and other software features run well on either device.

The Surface Book 2 and the MacBook Pro are both well-built with attractive, eye-catching designs, but there are some major differences here. While the MacBook Pro is a traditional laptop with a display and attached keyboard, the Surface Book 2 is a 2-in-1 with a touch display that can be converted into a tablet.

Because of its 2-in-1 design, the Surface Book 2 has an usual hinged design that lets the display be folded backwards or disconnected from the keyboard entirely for use in a tablet mode. The MacBook Pro, meanwhile, has no touch screen and it is a unibody machine.

surfacebook2hinge-800x450.jpg

Microsoft's Surface Book 2 has a wealth of ports that are missing from the MacBook Pro, which only offers 4 USB-C ports (albeit with Thunderbolt 3). The Surface Book 2 has an SD card slot, a USB-C port, and two USB-A ports, something that Apple users unhappy with the MacBook Pro port situation will appreciate.

The Surface Book 2 may have a 3240 x 2160 touch screen display, but it has some faults compared to the MacBook Pro's 2880 x 1800 display. It's nowhere near as bright, and it's also not quite as crisp. As for the trackpad, the MacBook Pro wins out because of its large trackpad equipped with haptic feedback and support for multiple gestures. Trackpad is one area where PC laptops often lag behind Apple, and the Surface Book 2 is no exception.

surfacebook2display-800x450.jpg

When it comes to the keyboard, the Surface Book 2 has a softer keyboard that's not quite as clicky and solid as the keyboard of the MacBook Pro, but as we well know, the keyboard redesign on the 2016 and 2017 MacBook Pro models has been receiving a lot of attention lately for reliability issues and its seemingly frequent failures, so the Surface Book 2 may have the edge here.

The aforementioned 2-in-1 tablet option for the Surface Book 2 is something Apple just can't compete with. You can press a key on the Surface Book 2's keyboard and pull the display right out of the keyboard to use it as a standalone touch-based tablet with the Surface Pen and the Surface Dial, both of which are ideal for creative tasks.

surfacebook2tabletmode-800x450.jpg

There are no input devices like a Surface Pen available for the MacBook Pro, and the main feature that it can boast over the Surface Book 2 is the Touch Bar, something that arguably does not get as much use as a 2-in-1 design.

The Surface Book 2 has a lot of perks that aren't available on Apple's MacBook Pro, but choosing to adopt the machine over an Apple device is still going to be difficult for those enmeshed in the Apple ecosystem. There's a lot of integration between macOS and iOS, and features like Continuity, Handoff, and iCloud will be missed if you're used to Apple devices. Certain software, like Final Cut Pro, is also limited to Apple's machines.

So which one is better? As with a lot of devices that are similar in specs, it's tough to say. It largely comes down to preference - do you want to use macOS or Windows? Most people in the Apple ecosystem likely won't want to give up macOS/iOS perks for the Surface Book 2's feature set, but those who don't use a lot of crossover functionality won't miss macOS as much.

surfacebook2rear-800x450.jpg

If you're not tied to a specific operating system and don't mind mixing devices across different platforms, Microsoft's Surface Book 2 is absolutely worth considering as a powerful, capable machine that offers functionality you can't get in a MacBook Pro.

Would you switch from an Apple machine to the Surface Book 2? Let us know in the comments.

Article Link: Apple's MacBook Pro vs. Microsoft's Surface Book 2

If the Surface was about 20 % of the price of the MBP and could run MacOS or at least Linux I could consider one as I'm very cheap. But Windows? no.
 

robertcoogan

macrumors 6502a
Apr 5, 2008
833
1,221
Joshua Tree, California
This article worries me.

I've avoided Windows since the Mac Classic. I have a mid-2015 MacBook Pro (and several other pre-2016 Macs) that work just great.

The recent decline in Apple's quality control, in both software and hardware, is significant and troubling. I don't want to buy a Windows machine, but I can't use a laptop whose keyboard can be disabled by a bit of dust. It's my livelihood. If my laptop doesn't work, I lose my home.

Dammit, what is Apple doing with all the cash it has? Can't it afford to hire 50 anal-compulsive QA/QC people to find these new product design problems? Oh - but I guess the issue is that Apple would have to give these people real authority over production - as in, we don't go to production with obvious unfixed problems. You know, empowering QA/QC with more than cosmetic power?

Guess I should consider a Surface. Sucks.

Both of them have some good features, but Apple wins for me because of the synchronization across devices, and security. If Windows users could see all of the security updates that hit the second Tuesday of every month, it would scare the *#@&% out of them. But the USB-A ports and the detachable tablet are features that MBP users are ready to sacrifice body parts (*cough*) for.

It is really hard to understand. But design trumps function so strongly at Apple now it has caused their overall quality of their products for Pro users (and others, for that matter) to suffer.

And I still think the touch bar is completely useless Ive-trash.
 
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pier

macrumors 6502a
Feb 7, 2009
579
950
I bought a SB1 and returned it after a couple of days.

It had plenty of GPU and pen glitches and the screen had horrible ghosting and bluish color.

Here are some videos I recorded:

Also the tablet experience on Windows 10 was just horrible. For example you couldn't change the screen brightness with a slider unless you went to the OS settings. On the system bar you could only change the brightness in 25% increments.

The keyboard was amazing though, one of the best chiclet keyboards I've ever used.
 

ryanarrr

macrumors newbie
Sep 19, 2014
14
9
Switched to Surface Book because the new MacBook keyboard is unusable. Windows sucks. The touchscreen is kind of neat. Tear off tablet is awesome. If Apple would put the Magic Keyboard in a MacBook Pro I'd be back. I'd miss the added features of the Surface Book, but I'd switch back.
 
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ThunderSkunk

macrumors 68040
Dec 31, 2007
3,782
3,990
Milwaukee Area
In the best of all possible worlds, Apple makes the Surface Pro, does the work creating an optimized install of OS X on it, with customizable minimally invasive on-screen control surfaces and keyboards like they did with the touch strip, and lean on Adobe and Autodesk to get on board with new powerful hardware option and build proper touch & stylus UI controls into their applications. In a couple years, everyone is creating designing in 3d objects as easily and naturally as the 50,000 year familiar experience of drawing with a pencil on a smooth surface, but with some AR viz benefit, & submitting their designs to a legal, organized, central marketplace with tie-ins to existing hubs where manufacturers, rapid prototypers, & proto fab shops can bid on the work, or game companies and graphics houses can shop for models, whatever, with a built-in escrow payment service and an IP lawyer service marketplace, with ai running useful patent searches. Foster actual creativity in the worlds people.

Instead we have microsoft building the hardware but dumping windoze on it, apple not even entering the market & building childrens toys for fingerpaintings and youtube instead, and lots of talk about an AR/VR realm few people can actually create anything worthwhile in.

My first tablet PC, an old Motion Computing m1300 slate, was as close to achieving this in 2002 as we are today, 15 years later. wtf.
 

duervo

macrumors 68020
Feb 5, 2011
2,465
1,232
Waiting to see what Apple has up their sleeve for quad core 8th Gen i5 or i7 U-series CPUs, if anything.

A low power, quad core, macOS device would be right up my alley as a successor to my current MacBook Pro. Maybe it’ll be that rumoured new MacBook Air.
 

Pablo.A.Pucci

macrumors member
May 11, 2016
67
51
Win 10 it is the most similar (ultra copycat) version of MacOs... but the overall experience is still much more poor.... Hate windows... not even close...
 
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Sedulous

macrumors 68030
Dec 10, 2002
2,530
2,577
Not a big fan of MacBook Pro hardware design. It sacrifices too much for “thin”. Apple needs to allow for memory and NVMe/m.2 slots. Also should have included at least one USB-A port to make transition less painful.

The surface book is interesting idea but still has too many quirks. Also Microsoft computers already have earned less than good reputation for reliability.

I am genuinely considering leaving the Apple world. I have always at least owned one PC but after 30 years of using and largely preferring Macs, Apple no longer offers what I want in a computer. I want to be able to replace or upgrade RAM. I want to be able to buy and install a new SSD blade (or even two for internal RAID and yes other similar form factors have such features). I do not want a thin fashion accessory, I want “pro” features. Lastly, good god Apple, design to allow for proper cooling of GPU so they don’t burn out (you’d think Apple would have learned after so many GPU failures and recalls).
[doublepost=1525754083][/doublepost]
Win 10 it is the most similar (ultra copycat) version of MacOs... but the overall experience is still much more poor.... Hate windows... not even close...
Yes, Win 10 is like a superficial layer of gloss over the same garbage. Worse yet, it seems like things are even more scattered and less organized than before. Still, Win10 is good enough for me (I have a Dell XPS tower and an Acer notebook I use for dabbling in Windoze) and unless Apple gets its computer design and engineering back to acceptable, I think I will be buying more PC but not half-baked (but interesting) hybrid notebooks like the surface book. Will likely start advising others to do the same.
 
Last edited:

seanjs

macrumors member
Aug 10, 2010
70
25
Oceanside, CA
SB2 can detach the screen for tablet mode and has touchscreen. That’s the advantage.

MacBook Pro is lighter / less bulky, and has better trackpad and can drive more external monitors. (Dual 4K not possible on SB; serious drawback!). That’s it’s advantage. Not being able drive 2 monitors with the SB kills it as a desktop replacement IMHO.

You’re probably spending more on the Mac for adapter cables and such, but at the high end price point these come in, it’s probably not a huge factor.

You can still run Windows on Mac, BTW. So there is that.

Give me a SB with a MBPro quality touchpad and dual 4K monitor capability (ie, multiple Thunderbolt 3 ports) and it’ll be a closer race.
 
Last edited:

Adamantoise

macrumors 6502a
Aug 1, 2011
991
388
You mean the Mac Pro Apple is completely redesigning?

Be that as it may, it's not currently available on the market, and it's very long in the tooth as far as hardware goes.

While they may redesign it, other OEMs like Microsoft will also be pressing forward with their products, so yeah, their long overdue redesign isn't exactly anything groundbreaking.
[doublepost=1525754785][/doublepost]
SB2 can detach the screen for tablet mode and has touchscreen. That’s the advantage.

MacBook Pro is lighter / less bulky, and has better trackpad and can drive more external monitors. (Dual 4K not possible on SB; serious drawback!). That’s it’s advantage.

You’re probably spending more on the Mac for adapter cables and such, but at the high end price point these come in, it’s probably not a huge factor.

You can still run Windows on Mac, BTW. So there is that.

Give me a SB with a MBPro quality touchpad and dual 4K monitor capability (ie, multiple Thunderbolt 3 ports) and it’ll be a closer race.

I'm getting a SB because it has a better keyboard (my primary source of input), and actual USB-A ports and an SD card slot... Yes I know it's an old argument, but immediate access to ubiquitous I/O isn't something to scoff at.

I can port images from my Fuji X-E3 directly to my computer without getting a USB-C SD card reader, or use the provided USB cable alongside a USB-C adapter.

I can take my computer with me anywhere and plug in my Logitech G600 and G13 if I feel like playing LoL.

It sounds like a broken record at this point, but that simple convenience is not to be overlooked. Sure USB-C is the future, but there's no reason why it can't coexist with USB-A until that future is here.

I don't want to work around my computer, I want my computer to work for me.
 
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Bistroengine

macrumors 6502
Jan 16, 2004
283
292
Seeing the pic of the 2 laying on top of one another, I imagined a scene where Johnny Ive and his team acquired a surface book 2 for a design study and they all immediately broke down laughing uncontrollably for 30 mins after seeing that hinge.
 

Adamantoise

macrumors 6502a
Aug 1, 2011
991
388
Seeing the pic of the 2 laying on top of one another, I imagined a scene where Johnny Ive and his team acquired a surface book 2 for a design study and they all immediately broke down laughing uncontrollably for 30 mins after seeing that hinge.

Honestly, the hinge only matters to people who want their computer to look pretty and not functional. What exactly is wrong with the hinge besides it being different from what you're used to?
 
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shuka.margolin

macrumors newbie
May 11, 2009
19
2



One of Apple's biggest competitors in the laptop space is arguably Microsoft, with its line of portable, productivity-focused Surface Book machines. Microsoft in November released its newest product, the Surface Book 2, a 2-in-1 PC that has quite a few selling points to entice Apple customers.

In our latest YouTube video, we took a look at the 15-inch Surface Book 2 and compared it to the 2016 15-inch MacBook Pro across a number of categories including build quality and design, key features, and overall usage experience for someone in the Apple ecosystem.


Both the Surface Book 2 and Apple's most recent MacBook Pro models are powerful machines with some of the latest technology in processor and graphics cards, so modern apps, games, and other software features run well on either device.

The Surface Book 2 and the MacBook Pro are both well-built with attractive, eye-catching designs, but there are some major differences here. While the MacBook Pro is a traditional laptop with a display and attached keyboard, the Surface Book 2 is a 2-in-1 with a touch display that can be converted into a tablet.

Because of its 2-in-1 design, the Surface Book 2 has an usual hinged design that lets the display be folded backwards or disconnected from the keyboard entirely for use in a tablet mode. The MacBook Pro, meanwhile, has no touch screen and it is a unibody machine.

surfacebook2hinge-800x450.jpg

Microsoft's Surface Book 2 has a wealth of ports that are missing from the MacBook Pro, which only offers 4 USB-C ports (albeit with Thunderbolt 3). The Surface Book 2 has an SD card slot, a USB-C port, and two USB-A ports, something that Apple users unhappy with the MacBook Pro port situation will appreciate.

The Surface Book 2 may have a 3240 x 2160 touch screen display, but it has some faults compared to the MacBook Pro's 2880 x 1800 display. It's nowhere near as bright, and it's also not quite as crisp. As for the trackpad, the MacBook Pro wins out because of its large trackpad equipped with haptic feedback and support for multiple gestures. Trackpad is one area where PC laptops often lag behind Apple, and the Surface Book 2 is no exception.

surfacebook2display-800x450.jpg

When it comes to the keyboard, the Surface Book 2 has a softer keyboard that's not quite as clicky and solid as the keyboard of the MacBook Pro, but as we well know, the keyboard redesign on the 2016 and 2017 MacBook Pro models has been receiving a lot of attention lately for reliability issues and its seemingly frequent failures, so the Surface Book 2 may have the edge here.

The aforementioned 2-in-1 tablet option for the Surface Book 2 is something Apple just can't compete with. You can press a key on the Surface Book 2's keyboard and pull the display right out of the keyboard to use it as a standalone touch-based tablet with the Surface Pen and the Surface Dial, both of which are ideal for creative tasks.

surfacebook2tabletmode-800x450.jpg

There are no input devices like a Surface Pen available for the MacBook Pro, and the main feature that it can boast over the Surface Book 2 is the Touch Bar, something that arguably does not get as much use as a 2-in-1 design.

The Surface Book 2 has a lot of perks that aren't available on Apple's MacBook Pro, but choosing to adopt the machine over an Apple device is still going to be difficult for those enmeshed in the Apple ecosystem. There's a lot of integration between macOS and iOS, and features like Continuity, Handoff, and iCloud will be missed if you're used to Apple devices. Certain software, like Final Cut Pro, is also limited to Apple's machines.

So which one is better? As with a lot of devices that are similar in specs, it's tough to say. It largely comes down to preference - do you want to use macOS or Windows? Most people in the Apple ecosystem likely won't want to give up macOS/iOS perks for the Surface Book 2's feature set, but those who don't use a lot of crossover functionality won't miss macOS as much.

surfacebook2rear-800x450.jpg

If you're not tied to a specific operating system and don't mind mixing devices across different platforms, Microsoft's Surface Book 2 is absolutely worth considering as a powerful, capable machine that offers functionality you can't get in a MacBook Pro.

Would you switch from an Apple machine to the Surface Book 2? Let us know in the comments.

Article Link: Apple's MacBook Pro vs. Microsoft's Surface Book 2
[doublepost=1525755608][/doublepost]Never, never, never windows os
 

inkswamp

macrumors 68030
Jan 26, 2003
2,953
1,278
I've played around with a few Surface tablets. They all feel very cheap and flimsy. Wouldn't take one over any kind of Macbook.
 
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