Apple's MacBook Pro vs. Microsoft's Surface Book 2

[StevieD100]

Would I switch?
Are you kidding? After 20+ years developing software for Windows I was so happy to see the back of my last corporate HP Laptop some three months after they'd forced windows 10 on us. So much stuff broke that we all (I mean the 20+ team of s/w developers that I led) moved Windows 10 into a VM and restored Windows 7 to the laptops. Corporate IT didn't like it but when the CIO saw the list of issues we were having he told his people to stop being silly and let us carry on.
I hated METRO/TIFKAM/whatever from Day 1. Then their updated played havoc with many of the apps we were developing configs and... and ... and...
If I don't have to touch a Windows device ever again I'll be happy.

If you gave me a Surface I'd either sell it to some other sucker or try to put Linux on it. I'm done with Microsoft.

 

[niun]

If you gave me a Surface I'd either sell it to some other sucker or try to put Linux on it. I'm done with Microsoft.

If it's a 15" 512 consider me a sucker.

 

[HighDesert50]

My wife, who is a avid ipad user, sits down at my macbook, sees a comparable visual interface to IOS, and immediately tries to physically manipulate the screen. I think that points to a glaring gap in Apple architecture, there is little overlap in the physical interfaces. It seems IOS has evolved with the times and MAC OS has languished as has its associated hardware.

 

[Rafterman]

Would I switch?
Are you kidding? After 20+ years developing software for Windows I was so happy to see the back of my last corporate HP Laptop some three months after they'd forced windows 10 on us. So much stuff broke that we all (I mean the 20+ team of s/w developers that I led) moved Windows 10 into a VM and restored Windows 7 to the laptops. Corporate IT didn't like it but when the CIO saw the list of issues we were having he told his people to stop being silly and let us carry on.
I hated METRO/TIFKAM/whatever from Day 1. Then their updated played havoc with many of the apps we were developing configs and... and ... and...
If I don't have to touch a Windows device ever again I'll be happy.

If you gave me a Surface I'd either sell it to some other sucker or try to put Linux on it. I'm done with Microsoft.

Windows 10 broke stuff for you? So, Windows 10 was like every other new version of every OS ever.

 

[pppx3]

Not sure why you think Apple has this capability. For one, Siri isn't as functional, supposedly for security, on Mac OS as iOS. So why would you think Apple could securely make the entire Mac OS run on voice commands? And Siri on all OSes, with it's limited command set, isn't always accurate. I find accuracy and listening skills varies from OS build to OS build.

Then you have the issue that voice commands are not really practical in a work or public setting. Even in private, I for one, would not want to control my computer with voice commands unless it understood conversational language rather than having to speak to it, like you do with Siri, like it's a 2 year old unable to understand complex sentences and language nuances like homophones. Otherwise it's making work harder, not easier.

I did say voice AND hand gestures Imagine doing the trackpad gestures, without needing a trackpad? Why do I think Apple could make the OS run on voice commands, because they could, if they chose to, but they would need to put a lot more into siri, no argument there.
I worked with the A/V PowerMac's back in the early 90's and they could do some operational actions within the OS better than siri can now... and without internet, it's nuts. All the tech is there, ready to use and I think the combo of hand gesture/facial expressions and voice would work well, especially with less abled people. I personally think Apple are holding back a LOT of tech to squeeze as much of the market they can, Apple is no longer creating revolution, only slow evolution, makes for better business stability.

 

[Dave245]

Yeah, windows 10 is pretty much up to Mac OS standards these days (I've had issues with both so neither are perfect in any way).
But in any case you are using arguments from 2011 for an OS in 2018. In that case my C64 has been running flawlessly for decades.

Correct. If you want the extra functionality of the Surface you'd need a Pen - dial is in no way required. That's a $99 hit if you REALLY need it..

My choice was this..

Surface with a pen.
Or
Macbook Pro + Wacom + dongle or MacBook Pro + iPad Pro + Apple Pencil..

That's the added cost for being creative on Mac these days. Not to mention the portability..

I was more talking about Windows from 2011 and earlier as i can't comment fairly on what it's like today Windows 10 from a personal experience only from what i've heard others say. I haven't even used Windows 10 i think the nearest i've come is playing on an Xbox One.

The dial i don't even know what it does to be honest i've seen it in advertisements and so but not being a Window's customer for many years i have no idea.

I do understand what your saying about creatives, i sit in that bracket as a writer however my needs are fairly simple in that i only need a MacBook or iPad to get things done, i do however own both an iPad Pro and Mac's simply because the Pro is great on IOS and the Pencil works really well when i'm drawing and taking notes, BUT i still like to use a computer for writing professionally, especially since i speed type.

 

[Matz]

Pretty good article, IMHO.
I've owned Macs since '86, mostly for personal use and consulting work. As an employee I've almost always used Windows machines, as that was the only option available to me.

My first tablet was a Newton, which I thought was awesome. Now I have an iPad Air 2. And a mid-2014 MBP to fill the laptop niche.

I work for a mining company. Most of my work is writing and spreadsheets, and maps. A couple of folks here use the Surface, and seem to think it's a great machine. I probably would have tried one, for curiosity if nothing else, had I not needed the horsepower for ArcMap and other such things. So last week I wound up with a Lenovo ThinkPad, which is pretty snappy. Along with said ThinkPad came Windows 10. I had been using Windows 7 up until then.

And 10 is, so far, for me, an improvement over 7. But I'm still getting to know it, so time will tell.

But to the question of OS and hardware, given the choice, I'd still go with Apple. I don't have a need (that I'm aware of) or desire to have a touch-screen laptop, either at work or at home.

While I can function quite well in a Windows environment, I find the experience of the MacOS on my computers and iOS on my iPad and iPhone significantly more pleasant. Fewer transaction costs, if you will, to do what I want to do.

 

[oldMacGenius]

I won’t buy another Apple MacBook until it includes modern Human Interface Devices and sensors. Things such as touchscreen/2-in-1 tablet support, pen support, RealSense/IR-3D camera - all things that they’ve adopted on iOS Devices. My guess is Apple would rather a customer buy an iPhone X, an iPad Pro, and a MacBook Pro to get the same functionality of a Surface Book 2. MacOS wins for operating system (for now) but it has forced developers into building two different apps for different platforms with different ways of interacting with them without any overlap (touch on iOS; mouse on Mac.) and its gonna be painful to merge the two. At least they’ve got Microsoft to learn from. Thank goodness for the illogical touch bar - without it, Macs would have the same HID setup as a 1983 Lisa.

I think a better comparison here would be the HP Spectre X360; my personal favorite notebook ive got right now - but this is Macrumors!

 

[TWISTEDH34T]

It looks like a nice laptop, but considering all the difficulties I've had with Microsoft products over the years I won't be switching, no matter how appealing the package.

 

[javanni]

Apple doesn't really care about its Mac line any more. Profits are with the iPhone. As the Mac line continues to stagnate, MS will pull ahead. Virtual abandonment of the Mac line is just the way business is practiced in the US. When my 2015 Air wears out I will probably switch to Windows as by then the clear best will be MS equipment. MacOS is still better, but for how long? The direction Apple is taking is really sad, but nothing lasts forever.

Oh my God, such drama.

MacBooks are perfectly fine specimens of the laptop species, which is perfectly evolved to occupy its technological niche. It's mature technology, really, you can't expect exponential improvements like in the waning PC heyday.

We can have slightly longer battery life, slightly faster processors (but hey look at Intel and the hoops they're jumping through to deliver 7 nm technology). Bit more RAM? Sign me up, yes, but what do you people exactly expect?
The fabled iPad-laptop crossover? It ain't gonna happen, and for good reason.

 

[ozone]

Yes... I would switch should Apple not release anything that allows me to be more productive in 2018. It's a bit of a shame... like many others, I used Windows since my university days, and then finally switched at my office and home in 2008. (Confession: I still used a Windows machine at work periodically for compatibility reasons.) I was very happy until my MBPro started to show its age last year, and so I bought the new 2016 MBPro model.

Not very impressed: I don't really like the flatter style keys, despite Apple's assurances that they have been redesigned for typing. The focus on USB-C only - despite the general lack of USB-C peripherals - is very frustrating because I'm always carting around never-lose dongles and connectors. And the battery life generally bites. OSX is still superior in terms of usability and interface, but Windows 10 is a LOT better than it used to be, and frankly, I can get by. Had the 11" MB Air for travel - THAT is an excellent notebook, but my battery is long gone, and I've used it enough that the keyboard is rather beat up.

I really miss having a small desk form factor. Bigger than a Mac Mini but not so large as to consume a ton of desk space. Something that gives me a bit of customization, like installing a second drive easily. The iMac is just less flexible in terms of configuration, and if something goes wrong, the whole unit is out of use.

The Surface - other than the desk top aspect - hits many pluses, including tablet functionality that can work in an office setting. Despite what Apple continues to push, the iPad Pro is *not* a full fledged computer in the sense of all out productivity. One of my work colleagues has similar complaints, and both of us have tried our best to use the iPad Pro in our daily activities.

I love Apple's hardware/software integration, so I guess this is the tradeoff. I feel as if Apple peaked about 5 years ago in terms of its design. As an experiment, I picked up the new Google Pixelbook - now THAT is a great little device. Light, responsive, well constructed... it is what the next generation MacBook should have been.

 

[Rafterman]

I don't mind the feel of the new Mac keybords. But why do they have to be so freakin' loud? It sounds like I'm pounding on a stone slab.

 

[stylinexpat]

A comparison to the new Thinkpad X1 Carbon would make a lot more sense:
- similar footprint
- business/lightweight machines
- amazing screen
- thinkpads rocks the mobile keyboard for years now
- thinkpad actually has an i7 (quadcore) option in a 14inch slim-bezel design.

We will see what WWDC brings this year, it better be good (better)...

I just bought the new X1 Carbon and I plan on returning it soon. I hooked up the X1 carbon to an LG Ultrawide monitor. With 3 windows open on that Ultrawide monitor the X1 Carbon CPU’s are at at over 40% usage level with 40% usage level of RAM too. You can then have the fans blastin on at full speed. Not good if you ask me. I can open a few windows on my iPhone or any other smartphone without the need of a fan in full blast mode from going off. MacBook Pro with 8GB of RAM can run three windows open on a monitor with half the ram usage and half the CPU Usage.

 

[Mackinjosh]

Can the usefulness of the Surface be removed by one speck of dust like the MBP? If not, it wins.

 

[DanielDD]

Requires carrying a mouse? How so? Do tell.

Try using a Surface Book on a plain or train for a couple of hours doing mouse intensive tasks. You’ll see what I’m talking about.

The added weight on the screen makes the device hobble a lot (the second iteration is better than the SB1, but still quite noticible). And using that tiny and not-as-smooth trackpad feels very tiring.

That’s the fundamental problem I have with surface books. They are trying to be a laptop and a tablet at the same time. In the end they fail at both because of basic ergonomics.

 

[Chupa Chupa]

I did say voice AND hand gestures Imagine doing the trackpad gestures, without needing a trackpad? Why do I think Apple could make the OS run on voice commands, because they could, if they chose to, but they would need to put a lot more into siri, no argument there.
I worked with the A/V PowerMac's back in the early 90's and they could do some operational actions within the OS better than siri can now... and without internet, it's nuts. All the tech is there, ready to use and I think the combo of hand gesture/facial expressions and voice would work well, especially with less abled people. I personally think Apple are holding back a LOT of tech to squeeze as much of the market they can, Apple is no longer creating revolution, only slow evolution, makes for better business stability.

Not sure what difference having both make. Hand gestures only get you so far, same as finger gestures. I've been using Macs since 1988 too, including the AV PM era. It wasn't as great or accurate as you now imagine it was, but also it was a different time -- something an old timer like you should easily recognize. Back then the OS wasn't literally linked to the Internet as it is now. Security is a much larger consideration than back then. I see nothing in today's voice command that would lend any evidence it's ready as an input for OS. It can barely handle basic requests, no concept of homophones or handling complex sentences. Again, it's like talking to a 2 year old.

 

[smirking]

It also shows that you can make a device pretty thin AND have plenty room for needed ports.

Well I guess you can jam it in there, but then there's longofest's comment about the heat sink placement on SP4. The engineering gets more and more challenging as you add additional components.

Take a look at one that we took apart at work and marvel at the thermal engineering - putting the heat sync on the lithium battery.

 

[bopajuice]

I'd like to take a look at the Surface. Instead of referring to my experiences with one OS or the other over the last 20 years, I prefer to compare "current" hardware and software. Seems many commenters here have decided they will "never" use Windows, and many others are comparing the current crop of products to products they used years ago.

I try to keep an open mind. I prefer to try products myself or wait for enough reviews to form an opinion.

I feel with the current Apple OS issues and bugs I am experiencing, it has started to make me think about the whole "I can't leave the eco-system" thing. Especially since the gap between Apple hardware, PC hardware and innovation has tightened. I no longer use Apple products for Wifi (Especially since Apple stopped making routers), and will be replacing my AppleTV with something more reliable. I will be looking at all options when it is time to replace my current iPhone. As Apple and Microsoft evolve so do I.

 

[niun]

Try using a Surface Book on a plain or train for a couple of hours doing mouse intensive tasks. You’ll see what I’m talking about.

The added weight on the screen makes the device hobble a lot (the second iteration is better than the SB1, but still quite noticible). And using that tiny and not-as-smooth trackpad feels very tiring.

That’s the fundamental problem I have with surface books. They are trying to be a laptop and a tablet at the same time. In the end they fail at both because of basic ergonomics.

Cool, I use my Surface Book every day and have used it extensively on planes, trains, buses and in the car.

Yeah the screen wobbles.. My MacBook air screen used to wobble. Never to the point it got/gets in the way.
The track-pad might not be as responsive as the stupidly large MacBook Pro one but it's no slouch and works perfectly with windows gestures.

The Surface is great at being a laptop with desktop style power and GPU with the ADDED bonus of being a graphics tablet or just plain old tablet that you can pop off whenever required.

 

[joiwomcow]

I love the surface book keyboards. They're right up there with the thinkpad ones, and a delight to type on. The macbook keyboards need to sort out their reliability issues - and I say this as a macbook pro 15" owner (and 3 year applecare holder). As a typing experience, they're fine - not the best on the market, but not a disaster.

 

[StrangeNoises]

Wouldn't switch to one of those, though a colleague did, in our company's recent hardware refresh (last time around we all got 2015 Macbook Pros, and nothing they have now is remotely exciting, and only the cheapest models were in our budget anyway). I went for a gold-and-white Dell XPS 13 9370, and put Ubuntu 18.04 on it. Everything works OOTB (even thunderbolt 3) and it's lovely. Makers of modern PC laptops in this class really are trying to attract disgruntled Macbook Pro users, I reckon.

(Disclaimer. if I'm honest, the fingerprint scanner on the power button doesn't work in Linux. Everything else. ;-) even touchscreen and I didn't even want it to.)

(Trackpad is not as good. Keyboard is better, though I kept hitting PgUp/PgDn at first, as Apple keyboards just have an empty space there above the left/right keys. Thin-ness of screen border is lovely, webcam angle is terrible, but I never use it, so not a factor. (Disabled in bios.))

However, the online direct buying experience was dreadful, which was really odd as that's supposed to be Dell's big thing. They actually managed to lose the original order for the installed-with-Linux model and I had to get one from John Lewis instead. *Then* they found the order a week later... *That* was the stage during which I most missed Apple.

 

[gnipgnop]

Interesting how this review doesn't mention how well these devices compare when connected to a high-resolution external monitor. Could that possibly be due to the fact that Microsoft branded hardware is notorious for having issues with that?

https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/surface-book-2-as-only-pc/

 

[niun]

Interesting how this review doesn't mention how well these devices compare when connected to a high-resolution external monitor. Could that possibly be due to the fact that Microsoft branded hardware is notorious for having issues with that?

It's a review on an Apple blog site... Why on earth would they have any reservations about pointing out flaws with Microsoft products?

 

[DanielDD]

Cool, I use my Surface Book every day and have used it extensively on planes, trains, buses and in the car.

Yeah the screen wobbles.. My MacBook air screen used to wobble. Never to the point it got/gets in the way.
The track-pad might not be as responsive as the stupidly large MacBook Pro one but it's no slouch and works perfectly with windows gestures.

The Surface is great at being a laptop with desktop style power and GPU with the ADDED bonus of being a graphics tablet or just plain old tablet that you can pop off whenever required.

I can’t really get used to Surface Book no matter how much I tried it. I always go get a mouse to use it and that defeats the portability aspect.

If you think the Surface has desktop style power then you really don’t need a desktop machine. With 2k USD you can build a beast of a computer that far surpasses this one.
If you think the Surface is a tablet replacement then you really don’t need a tablet. Again, with this kind of money you can buy a state of the art tablet with better battery life, a decent app ecosystem, real touch screen interface, and more portable all round.

The Surface Book has a place in the market. For people that do need a computing device that can do a little bit of everything (desktop, laptop, tablet), while not being the most powerful, the most portable, the most ergonomic. But that’s it.

 

[theluggage]

I am to benefit from the speed of the 2 Thunderbolt (USB-C) sockets on my basic model 2017, 13" 128gb mbpro, do the connected devices need to be specifically Thunderbolt capable also?

O/T but basically yes - Thunderbolt and USB are completely different protocols, they just share a connector. Except (a) you have 4 (edit - sorry -2) ports - you can have USB-C devices plugged into one and Thunderbolt devices plugged into he other and (b) some Thunderbolt devices - hubs/docks and TB displays - also feature USB ports, so you can hang USB devices off those.

Edit 2: the question is, do you need Thunderbolt speeds? 10Gbps USB 3.1g2 is fast enough for any single disc drive/SSD. TB3 is needed for things like 5k displays, high-end multi-disc/SSD RAID arrays, external GPUs and other specialist A/V gear. The main need for TB3 in "general purpose" use is to connect a multi-port hub/dock that is going to drive multiple devices, esp. if that includes a 4k@60Hz display (which maxes out a regular USB-C connection leaving only a USB 2 channel for other devices).