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But P/E can be a pretty good indicator of a valuation bubble. See: DotCom Bust.

I'd say only a fair indicator at best, and always very circumstantial. A company with no E will have no PE, so that isn't going to tell you much about their prospects. Even more importantly, if you'd bought into that concept at pretty much any time during the 2000s decade, you'd have missed the AAPL opportunity entirely.

The dot-com bubble was a different animal entirely. Lots of people were persuaded that companies with no track record, no earnings, and no clear plan for making any earnings, were the next big things. Anybody want to buy a sock puppet?

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In the short run, not in the long run. What these analysts, who have been for decades poo pooing Graham and his Superinvestor pupils (who have beaten the S&P year in and year out; while the Street *still* thinks these now billionaires are going about it all wrong), consistently fail to mention is that any number times zero is still zero.

A dollar of lost principal today is a compounded loss tomorrow. Every gambler who seeks high returns wipes out some principal. That principal is (1+r)^nt lost future value... as opposed to future compounded returns.

I don't know why anyone thinks it's more sensible to play for the short term... but I suspect it has to do with a) impatience and b) poor math skills.

I think you know I am not advocating short term plays, far from it. But even long term, risk and returns are strongly correlated.

As for investors who've beaten the S&P consistently, I've yet to see one. Many will have good years, and even good decades. But few if any can beat the broader market returns over an appropriate time span.
 
Can anyone name a company who had a top market cap whos stock went vertical where it ended well?

I know, I know, "this time it's different"...the phrase everyone uses when betting on an exception.

Exceptions happen, but are almost never good bets.

Apple is in the most competitive markets in technology with margins that aren't sustainable in the long run the bigger they get. They are no longer aiming at a small subset of loyal followers, they have gone mass market.

I love apple as a company, but as an investment they are priced for perfection and the share price implies they will be able to grow without margin compression. That will be close to impossible.
 
I think you know I am not advocating short term plays, far from it. But even long term, risk and returns are strongly correlated.

I can't say it better than Buffett already did, so I'll just quote him, from The Superinvestors of Graham-and-Doddsville:

"If you buy a dollar bill for 60 cents, it's riskier than if you buy a dollar bill for 40 cents, but the expectation of reward is greater in the latter case. The greater the potential for reward in the value portfolio, the less risk there is."

Alas, it's a fact of life that many people love making things more difficult for themselves than need be.

As for investors who've beaten the S&P consistently, I've yet to see one. Many will have good years, and even good decades. But few if any can beat the broader market returns over an appropriate time span.

Few, yes... but that's the point Buffett made in Superinvestors... that there's a group of people who do beat the S&P pretty consistently and they hail from the same "intellectual village"... they were all disciples or students of Graham.

My most common advice to people who don't have the patience or the background to dive into business valuation the way I do is to never buy/sell individual securities, and instead sit on an index fund unless they have enough money to get Lee Kopp or Whitney Tilson to manage their portfolio.
 
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Hello, I'm thinking of buying some AAPL shares but Im a newbie in the share market.

So I'd like some explanation/clarity on the shares I'm getting.

What causes the market capitalisation to keep increasing?

I thought companies used to sell shares to get investment into the company and use those funds to run the business. But Apple doesn't need money any more. It has too much.

Are we just trading shares in the hope that other people will buy it at a higher price later on? Im really confused... If AAPL reaches a trillion dollar valuation, what does that even mean?

What causes the share price to rise and fall? If Apple continues to make more and more money where does this money go, does it just sit in a bank vault somewhere until they want to pay dividends? And how does making profit relate to the market valuation ?

All I'm basing my purchasing of AAPL shares off is that Apple will be successful for at least another 3 to 5 years and if they continue to be successful then that should lead to an increase in their share price?
 
I don't think they'll destroy them, but it's probably gonna be a story like '10% of the sales, 50% of the profit'.

What profits? The TV business has brutally thin margins and declining sales. Samsung is probably the biggest and most profitable among TV sales, and their division made $170M last quarter. Also, they are the manufacturer, so their costs are even less than most.

Here are some problems with looking at an Apply TV and a big source of growth:

1. It's not a high growth business -- global TV sales declined in 2011 to something like 250M. TV's are not the centerpieces they once were. The people who watch the most TV are the ones who care least about it -- my mom, my grandma, etc.
2. There is no subsidy for TV's. (This is a very big deal!)
3. Margins are razor thin even for the manufacturers and TV prices keep dropping.
4. The iPhone is definitely a premium phone, yet the vast majority of iPhone owners I know don't have premium TV's. This comes back to the subsidy issue -- how many kids and lower income people would have iPhones if they were $600-700 instead of $0-200 every two years?
5. Apple has rarely been cutting edge with hardware or a bargain. I believe hardware and low prices are is still what drives TV sales. Again, none of my friends with iPhones would ever buy a premium TV.

An Apple TV will be a premium product with a premium price for a niche crowd. Apple is the most profitable company, but iOS isn't the dominant platform. Apple revolutionized the smart phone and took market share because of it. Even with the head start though, Android as a platform and all its manufacturers took the majority of the market.

Apple isn't getting a head start here and they aren't going to re-invent the TV like they did the smart phone. They aren't going to create a new form factor like the iPad. Samsung and friends are already on the bleeding edge of TV design and hardware.


I believe an Apple TV would be like the Mac computer line -- a nice implementation and profitable, but small and niche. In short, it's not going to drive their profits now or ever.
 
I can't say it better than Buffett already did, so I'll just quote him, from The Superinvestors of Graham-and-Doddsville:

"If you buy a dollar bill for 60 cents, it's riskier than if you buy a dollar bill for 40 cents, but the expectation of reward is greater in the latter case. The greater the potential for reward in the value portfolio, the less risk there is."

Buffett is the exception that proves the rule. He does not simply manage funds, he buys entire companies. He also has had periods when he does not beat the market averages.

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Hello, I'm thinking of buying some AAPL shares but Im a newbie in the share market.

So I'd like some explanation/clarity on the shares I'm getting.

What causes the market capitalisation to keep increasing?

I thought companies used to sell shares to get investment into the company and use those funds to run the business. But Apple doesn't need money any more. It has too much.

Are we just trading shares in the hope that other people will buy it at a higher price later on? Im really confused... If AAPL reaches a trillion dollar valuation, what does that even mean?

What causes the share price to rise and fall? If Apple continues to make more and more money where does this money go, does it just sit in a bank vault somewhere until they want to pay dividends? And how does making profit relate to the market valuation ?

All I'm basing my purchasing of AAPL shares off is that Apple will be successful for at least another 3 to 5 years and if they continue to be successful then that should lead to an increase in their share price?

The best and most useful answer I can give you is, if you have these kinds of questions, then you should not be buying stocks. You are best advised to put your money in unmanaged index funds, such as an S&P 500 fund.
 
I think Apple's long term growth is very limited by the sheer size of it. Growing even 20% over the next 5 years would require revenue of $250B and earnings of $82B, assuming margins were maintained.

I'd wager that it's not going to happen. It would either require 150% increase in market share, 150% increase in market size, or a combination of those two. The former isn't going to happen based on what we see from Android, so that leave predominantly the latter. Yes, the market size will increase, but lets not forget the saturation of core markets. If those markets reach saturation -- and they will soon -- it will be dependent on growth from places like Africa, India, and an poorer countries in Asia.

Then let's not forget about margins. They'd have to do all this while maintaining their high margins which very well could be squeezed from competition. iPad margins have already decreased with the new iPad and I expect margins will continue somewhat lower.

Then of course, what happens when growth slow dramatically? They can't grow at 20% for the next 5 years again because it would require revenue of $800B, which while theoretically not impossible, would require they sell 1.3B $600 iThings per year -- not gonna happen. So growth slows to 10% or less, maybe 5%, and you should see PE contraction and stock price start to level off considerably. Earnings go up, stock doesn't.

If they are earning $82B 5 years from now with growth slowing down to 5-10% and a realistic PE at that point of 10 or less, then the stock price will be about $820.
 
Perhaps Apple will someday make everything you need in YOUR life.

It's a troubled life that can be totally fulfilled by Apple products.

I need things in my life that Apple can't make...

And perhaps some people won't be vaccinated against sarcasm :D
 
The best and most useful answer I can give you is, if you have these kinds of questions, then you should not be buying stocks. You are best advised to put your money in unmanaged index funds, such as an S&P 500 fund.
Well, we're all born ignorant, if everyone were to follow your advice nobody would be buying stocks.
Hello, I'm thinking of buying some AAPL shares but Im a newbie in the share market.

So I'd like some explanation/clarity on the shares I'm getting.

What causes the market capitalisation to keep increasing?

I thought companies used to sell shares to get investment into the company and use those funds to run the business. But Apple doesn't need money any more. It has too much.

Are we just trading shares in the hope that other people will buy it at a higher price later on? Im really confused... If AAPL reaches a trillion dollar valuation, what does that even mean?

What causes the share price to rise and fall? If Apple continues to make more and more money where does this money go, does it just sit in a bank vault somewhere until they want to pay dividends? And how does making profit relate to the market valuation ?

All I'm basing my purchasing of AAPL shares off is that Apple will be successful for at least another 3 to 5 years and if they continue to be successful then that should lead to an increase in their share price?
It's really simple: supply and demand. That's all there is too it.

In total, there are around X stocks available for public trading. For each stock, Apple currently earns about $30 each quarter (the EPS). This gives some weight to the stock. If you look at other companies, investors are generally willing to pay at about 25 times the EPS for a stock (Price/Earnings-ratio = 25). This means that for every dollar earned, you will have to buy $25 worth of stock. This simple calculation leads to a 'reasonable' stock price of 25*30 = $750 for Apple. In practice it's much more complicated and there are a lot of other things that play a role as well, but this basic calculation gives some insight in what is reasonable and what not. If we go on further with this calculation, as long as the stock price is below this 'target', the demand would exceed the supply and prices will go up. But again, this is a very basic calculation, in real life there is much more too it.

However, one could argue that this information has already been absorbed by the stock price. If we all 'know' that Apple is actually worth $750, then why doesn't the stock increase to $750 in 1 second? It's sound reasoning, right? There is no reason for us to 'wait' a few months before Apple is actually worth what's it worth? So why doesn't that happen? To be honest, I don't really know. This is just the sentiment and psychology behind stocks that you can never really grasp.

You have to realize that value is nothing more than the latest price for which something has been sold. It doesn't take history into account. If I buy an Apple share for $650, and for some reason nobody wants to buy it anymore for $650 but only for $1, then a share will be worth $1 in an instant. The same goes for more intangible things like paintings: if I were to pay $1 million for some stupid painting, then the painting is worth $1 million. But if I can't sell it for $1 million, is it still worth $1 million? No, the value is nothing more than the highest bid at one specific point in time. In The Netherlands we have a saying that puts it rather well: 'iets is waard wat de gek ervoor geeft', which means "something's worth whatever the mad man will give you for it". And that's 100% true. :)
 
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Hello, I'm thinking of buying some AAPL shares but Im a newbie in the share market.

As IJ Reilly noted, the questions you're asking lead me to believe that buying and selling individual stocks is not going to be the most prudent use of your money. You're far better off putting a percentage of your portfolio in a no-load index fund, like the Vanguard S&P 500, and then the remainder into cash and fixed yields (AAA rated bonds, 30 year treasuries, etc.)

Being proactive as a researcher doesn't take a lot of work if you have a solid foundation in Finance, but it can be more complicated for people whose skill sets lie outside that field. What takes me fifteen minutes to size up may take someone else days... So while it's not as glamorous, it's probably the smart thing to follow IJ Reilly's advice there.
 
Buffett is the exception that proves the rule. He does not simply manage funds, he buys entire companies. He also has had periods when he does not beat the market averages.

But Buffett isn't the only value investor out there. Let me be clear that what I'm not suggesting is that there is one set definition of business valuation. There are a few different methods that M&A consultants use, and I tend toward the more conservative methods in the process of triangulating fair market value. I'm in no hurry to get rich (read: no hurry to get poor). Personally, I prefer a rather wide margin of safety and even in the worst years of recent market activity, that has served me exceptionally well.

Buffett is one of many value investors who use these methodologies and they have, much more often than not, resulted in compounded gains in excess of the S&P over time. To me, that doesn't seem like Buffett is the exception, because his success is flanked by the success of numerous other value investors who erred on the side of conservative valuation in the process of determining a reasonable acquisition price.

It wasn't until relatively recently that Berkshire focused on whole acquisitions, but I can tell you that the core rule of value investing is to treat the business of investing as though you are in fact acquiring the company whole. If it doesn't make sense to pay x for the entire company, it doesn't make sense to pay y times x for y percent of the same company.

Sometimes that rule works against you, particularly if you're on a security that has too many speculators playing with it... but hyped stocks are the enemy of consistently adequate returns that snowball over time while exposing the investor's principal to minimal risk of loss.

Again, it boils down to patience and basic math skills. It's never fundamentally wiser to pay more rather than less for the same asset.
 
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You have to realize that value is nothing more than the latest price for which something has been sold.

Price is what you pay. Value is what you get. Value is not always perfectly correlated to price, because as I've said before, not everyone in the market knows all inputs affecting value at any given moment.

I would bet, as a business analyst, I probably know a lot more than the average person about inputs affecting fair market value. Business valuation and security pricing are two different conversations. The Wall Street analyst is solving for an inflated analysis that will increase liquidity.

As a business analyst and an investor, I'm solving for a conservative metric that will tell me what is not merely a fair acquisition price, but what is some price below that which would give me x percent margin of safety should I not be 100% confident in my own valuation and therefore insulate me with more upside than downside.
 
Well, we're all born ignorant, if everyone were to follow your advice nobody would be buying stocks.It's really simple: supply and demand. That's all there is too it.

Buying index funds is also buying stock, only indirectly, and far more safely. It's hard enough for the professional stock-pickers to beat the market indexes. Telling someone who doesn't even know the first thing about the stock markets to invest in individual shares is like inviting them to be shark chum. Maybe that works for your conscience, but it doesn't for mine.
 
But Buffett isn't the only value investor out there. Let me be clear that what I'm not suggesting is that there is one set definition of business valuation. There are a few different methods that M&A consultants use, and I tend toward the more conservative methods in the process of triangulating fair market value. I'm in no hurry to get rich (read: no hurry to get poor). Personally, I prefer a rather wide margin of safety and even in the worst years of recent market activity, that has served me exceptionally well.

Buffett is one of many value investors who use these methodologies and they have, much more often than not, resulted in compounded gains in excess of the S&P over time. To me, that doesn't seem like Buffett is the exception, because his success is flanked by the success of numerous other value investors who erred on the side of conservative valuation in the process of determining a reasonable acquisition price.

It wasn't until relatively recently that Berkshire focused on whole acquisitions, but I can tell you that the core rule of value investing is to treat the business of investing as though you are in fact acquiring the company whole. If it doesn't make sense to pay x for the entire company, it doesn't make sense to pay y times x for y percent of the same company.

Sometimes that rule works against you, particularly if you're on a security that has too many speculators playing with it... but hyped stocks are the enemy of consistently adequate returns that snowball over time while exposing the investor's principal to minimal risk of loss.

Again, it boils down to patience and basic math skills. It's never fundamentally wiser to pay more rather than less for the same asset.

I realize that a huge debate has arisen between investment pros touting classic value investing and stock picking, and the advocates of modern portfolio theory. I'm sure we aren't going to settle that here. Probably the only element I can add is that even Buffett believes that the vast majority of investors are going to be better off investing via the MPT model. He recognizes that what he does is not typical nor a model that others can readily follow.

In any case, probabilities tell us that some investment managers are always going to beat the markets in any given year, if only by virtue of randomness. The more years you string together the more difficult it becomes for any money manager to make that claim, however, and also that they trend towards a mean return that is lower than the market averages. This is (as you no doubt know) the basic premise of MPT.

I understand your asset formula, but it being the path to successful investing makes several rebuttable presumptions. The first is that you can work out the company's true value as an asset. The second is that you are in possession of this fact, and the rest of the investing universe for some reason is not. Third, it assumes that other investors will eventually figure it out, or at least they will do so after you've figured it out. If any of these steps don't pan out, then your investment is likely to be dog.

Seems risky to me, inherently. Hence, the value of MPT, the method by which any investor can beat the market averages by simply putting one foot in front of the other.
 
I realize that a huge debate has arisen between investment pros touting classic value investing and stock picking, and the advocates of modern portfolio theory. I'm sure we aren't going to settle that here. Probably the only element I can add is that even Buffett believes that the vast majority of investors are going to be better off investing via the MPT model. He recognizes that what he does is not typical nor a model that others can readily follow.

More than that... Typically any investor with less than $100,000 in investible assets (the overwhelming majority of Americans), Buffett argues, is best off letting an index fund execute that application of MPT for them.

But MPT is chiefly a probabilistic, not a financial analytical model. Both MPT and value investing have assumptions, but it's where those assumptions lie that's the issue for me. Inherent to CAPM is the use of market data to predict market data. Beta is a very debatable measure of actual risk. WACC, as a component of DCF analysis, doesn't take into account economies of scale, whereby cost of capital doesn't remain fixed as a company grows.

But I'm a metrics expert. I never advocate using the resulting output (the market behavior) to predict future resulting output. The real inputs lie in the underlying business... Granted, markets may operate independent of those facts to a degree, but the tendency for a company with consistently bad operating performance to do well on the markets, or vice versa, is far more remote than the tendency of market metrics ability to predict market metrics.

Value investing has its limitations... because there are industries where business value is somewhat difficult to predict. This is, of course, why I primarily stick to businesses that are very easy to break down... manufacturing sector stuff. There's no end to them. The reason that not everyone has figured this out is because, and this is a secret but I'll tell you (yes I'm beeing a bit cheeky): The world is so much more full of morons than it is shrewd people, adding 100,000 more shrewd people tomorrow isn't going to dilute the effectiveness of my valuation model (nor its relevancy in the M&A world).

So narrowing it down to manufacturing businesses, which make and sell widgets.... there's a direct correlation between working capital and operating cash flow. So these are the primary two high-level components I consider, because, as I've mentioned before, whether Company XYZ has gold doorknobs or bronze, 5000 square foot headquarters or 500,000, isn't going to tell me anything about how well they convert inventories to revenue.

I then come to two metrics: Terminal value and enterprise value. I compare the proximity of the two, and arrive at some price with a margin of safety... a sizable margin of safety. If market price is currently at or below that safety level, I consider that a buying opportunity provided the company meets all my other criteria, including The Three M's (management, moat and money).

Occasionally this produces dogs if I've ignored or miscalculated upon a material fact (such as the outcome of the impending bankruptcy of Smurfit Stone and the terrible acquisition by Rock Tenn that shortchanged investors badly)... but I've not had much of a problem beating the S&P for the past few years, partly because depending on my level of confidence in an analysis of the facts for a given company, I may adjust my margin of safety and/or my asset allocation accordingly to minimize risk.

The companies in the S&P are chosen by some asset valuation method as well... Beating the S&P is not an impenetrable barrier, but it does require some work. It's just a lot less work for me than for the average person who has no professional background in business valuation, sales forecasting, etc. who might otherwise find themselves entirely at the mercy of analyst reports that I, as a matter of routine, completely ignore.

My most important function as an investor, and the most important behavioral attribute that contributes to what I feel is pretty adequate success in the markets, is as a protector of principal. Secondary to that is my view of the investor's role as a strategic acquisition expert, not a trader of stocks. Acquisitions strategy cannot rely on probabilistic valuations, but real world valuations based on real inputs and outputs impacting operating cash flows... the reason the business exists, and the core reason anyone places value on any business regardless of how they arrive at that value... still comes back to the consistency with which the company's operations are generating money.
 
More than that... Typically any investor with less than $100,000 in investible assets (the overwhelming majority of Americans), Buffett argues, is best off letting an index fund execute that application of MPT for them.

I feel you have skirted my points. A value investor needs at least the three factors I described to go right or they will underperform. More than that, actually, but those are the main three. The most important of them IMO is the last. You could find the most undervalued company on the planet bar none by your metrics and still have your investment go nowhere if that message never gets out to other investors. I've held "undervalued" stocks (according to those who supposedly know) in my portfolio and guess what -- they are still "undervalued" years later. You as an investor can never control the market's consensus. You can be right and wrong at the same time.

Incidentally, this brings up one of Buffett's great advantages. The moment he invests in a company, the world knows, and the world follows. He gets his bump from just being a player.
 
You could find the most undervalued company on the planet bar none by your metrics and still have your investment go nowhere if that message never gets out to other investors. I've held "undervalued" stocks (according to those who supposedly know) in my portfolio and guess what -- they are still "undervalued" years later. You as an investor can never control the market's consensus. You can be right and wrong at the same time.

There's a difference between going nowhere and going backward. I'm ok with the occasional security going nowhere, and being able to set sell-stops minimizes the probability of going backward (again this is very low turnover so very rarely do I rely on sell-stops and they never fail to execute if they are triggered). But I don't have a lot of those and that may be due to other implicit expectations/criteria I have: The companies I tend to focus on, I typically limit my searches to fairly large brands or companies that do in excess of $2 billion in annual revenue. This seriously limits the playing field to a handful of underpriced securities but I don't need dozens of them if I've done my other homework properly.

But I think this was already implicit in my other criteria, anyway.... A company with a very large competitive moat will be known by other investors/speculators. But there are a number of times when general market downturns create a gap between price and value in my favor that presents a buying opportunity for a company whose operating results did not change dramatically from the day, week or month prior.

The other thing I should point out is that the belief in efficient markets is itself controverted by your own observation that it's possible for investors to not know about (or believe in) every opportunity at every given time.

Berkshire's investment in KO was a perfect example of that... it's not like I expect the majority of my investments to be that big a slam dunk, but if I'm not planning on using turnover frequency then the likelihood is that over time I'll have a few slam dunks and a lot of adequate returns compounded.
 
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The other thing I should point out is that the belief in efficient markets is itself controverted by your own observation that it's possible for investors to not know about (or believe in) every opportunity at every given time.

I don't think you can draw this inference. The markets process everything they know and market prices are a product of this consensus view. Without getting overly existential about it, the knowledge I refer to isn't merely factual or statistical, it can have equally to do with subjective, even irrational judgements. The point being, a beaten-down stock may never fully reflect the underlying value of the enterprise for no better reason than investors no longer believe in that company's prospects, and the market value can continue reflect investor caution or fear no matter how well they perform. If you picked that stock based strictly on the numbers, you might find yourself ringing the undervalued bell for a long time and have nobody listening.
 
Just wanted to say that I've been reading all these discussions and threads on MacRumors about Apple and its stock price/value, etc., for the past days and I find them very interesting indeed.

Special thanks to Avatar74 for taking the time to explain in such elaborate detail his views and for perking my interest in value investing. I'm reading one of Graham's books right now and it has been a great read so far.
 
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Not a good day for AAPL, it seems. Down more than $40B in cap from the bubble.
 
Just wanted to say that I've been reading all these discussions and threads on MacRumors about Apple and its stock price/value, etc., for the past days and I find them very interesting indeed.

Special thanks to Avatar74 for taking the time to explain in such elaborate detail his views and for perking my interest in value investing. I'm reading one of Graham's books right now and it has been a great read so far.

The most important thing I learned from Graham wasn't even the mechanics of valuation, which I already knew, but the mindset of value. Once you have a solid mindset on value, it changes how you define risk and opportunity.

Once you have that, you become unswayed by the emotional appeals of people who bear no risk for not looking out for your best interests. And what seems attractive to the speculator isn't necessarily attractive to you, the investor.

As for recent activity on AAPL, who can say? If insiders and institutional investors (who own 70% of the stock) are dumping then perhaps they know something in the near term that the public doesn't. I see a potential opportunity if they drop below my valuation. But I can think of five or six better investments right off the top of my head. So that just tells me not to even care what the public barometer is on AAPL.
 
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