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I don't think you can draw this inference. The markets process everything they know and market prices are a product of this consensus view. Without getting overly existential about it, the knowledge I refer to isn't merely factual or statistical, it can have equally to do with subjective, even irrational judgements. The point being, a beaten-down stock may never fully reflect the underlying value of the enterprise for no better reason than investors no longer believe in that company's prospects, and the market value can continue reflect investor caution or fear no matter how well they perform. If you picked that stock based strictly on the numbers, you might find yourself ringing the undervalued bell for a long time and have nobody listening.

Here I think you're mistaking my valuation for target pricing. Belief about a company's prospects isn't what I bank on. What I bank on is when a company is currently underpriced relative to its net current assets and a very, very conservative discounted cash flow projection tending toward terminal growth. I don't care one whit about some chatter about some hypothetical product they might release in two years time that will be the "killer app" or "killer widget" if you will. The only time cash flow projections are complicated is in highly seasonal businesses or unpredictable businesses that change very rapidly (I.T. for example), or where there are large fluctuations in raw materials costs. Otherwise, companies like my own employer set targets in their plan and forecast and then sales VP's, directors and managers manage the resources strategically to go after those numbers. If those targets seem ludicrous and unattainable, then even the company's past operating history will show some holes. But this is also why I like businesses that have high retention/renewal rates.

But let me simplify the question for you in two ways:

1. Why would it ever be sensible for me to err on the side of speculative valuation rather than conservative, M&A-based valuation, in determining my preferred acquisition price? (which is more likely to be overinflated?)

2. If you know of a better way to reach a conservative valuation than strong operating performance, wide competitive moat, sound management, fair liquidity (quick ratio > 1), evidence of predictable movement of working capital through the sales cycle (to suggest steady, not erratic cyclicality), then I'd love to hear it.

-OR-

If what you're suggesting is that even a solid valuation methodology (one that is in practice with M&A consultants/analysts, private equity firms, etc.) can't produce consistently adequate returns and safety of principal, then what methodology can you demonstrate has for four decades performed better than the combined performance of Sequoia Fund, Berkshire Hathaway, Peregrine, Perlmeter, SocGen/First Eagle? (all of these have 30-40 year average annual compounded returns better than the S&P, and they're all run by value investors)*

* The last of these, First Eagle's Global Fund, lost money only two times during Jean Marie Eviellard's three decades at the helm: 1.3% in 1990 and 0.26% in 1998; otherwise their 30-year annual average compounded return was 15.8%. Eviellard's successor, Charles de Vaulx kept Global hitting home runs between 14.9% and 20% from 2005-2007 before his departure and Eviellard's return to protect funds that he oversaw for decades.
 
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Took out a personal loan to "build credit", it was through a Credit Union.

At what rate? Margin trading, however you accomplish it, is a terrible idea. It operates on the belief that you can gain multiples of your principal. i.e. for every dollar of your own money, you could make gains on 3 dollars that weren't yours. But the fallacy in this is ignoring the tremendous risk of losing 3 dollars you don't have for every dollar that you do.

But then there's interest to be repaid. Where's the logic in risking loss of money that isn't yours for a return that's a fraction of the return you would have gained had you just found an investment better suited for you?

The average person who bought AAPL at $626 per share (about $100 to $200 too many) is likely to panic sell when it dropped some 20 points, especially if they're in such a dire financial position that they had to borrow money in the first place. Then where does that leave them?

I'm not saying this without experience. I used to make some fairly gigantic trades on margin. Stable returns are better than unpredictable and violent swings, and more often than not lead to much larger compounded returns over time.
 
At what rate? Margin trading, however you accomplish it, is a terrible idea. It operates on the belief that you can gain multiples of your principal. i.e. for every dollar of your own money, you could make gains on 3 dollars that weren't yours. But the fallacy in this is ignoring the tremendous risk of losing 3 dollars you don't have for every dollar that you do.

But then there's interest to be repaid. Where's the logic in risking loss of money that isn't yours for a return that's a fraction of the return you would have gained had you just found an investment better suited for you?

The average person who bought AAPL at $626 per share (about $100 to $200 too many) is likely to panic sell when it dropped some 20 points, especially if they're in such a dire financial position that they had to borrow money in the first place. Then where does that leave them?

I'm not saying this without experience. I used to make some fairly gigantic trades on margin. Stable returns are better than unpredictable and violent swings, and more often than not lead to much larger compounded returns over time.


9.9%. The stock is going nowhere but up.
 
9.9%. The stock is going nowhere but up.

I've heard this so many times in my life. The housing market is going nowhere but up. Rambus is going nowhere but up. Apple is going nowhere but up.

Even if it did keep going up (it'll go up and down like a scary roller coaster, and it'll be interesting to see if you hang on or flee), it's a very dangerous game to play with margin trades... 9.9% is a hell of a lot of cash to shell out and eat into any potential returns. And you may not always be in a position to just keep holding it... but I'll come back to that in a minute.

I used to resort to the exact same self-deception. But who am I to argue if you can make all the monthly payments of principal and interest while still holding AAPL, and aren't forced to liquidate your position prematurely due to circumstances beyond your control.

Of course, if none of those pressures exist then I wonder why you'd need to borrow money you don't have in the first place. Because in order to not have those pressures, you'd have enough cash to never consider the Russian Roulette of margin trading... Why wouldn't you instead look for a manageable investment that, at a lower price relative to its value, will net you much more in the long run? Is it because you don't think you can find one? I found four or five in the past six months alone.

But I'm just a business analyst responsible for $400 million in revenue, what do I know. :rolleyes:
 
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I've heard this so many times in my life. The housing market is going nowhere but up. Rambus is going nowhere but up. Apple is going nowhere but up.

Even if it did keep going up (it'll go up and down like a scary roller coaster, and it'll be interesting to see if you hang on or flee), it's a very dangerous game to play with margin trades... 9.9% is a hell of a lot of cash to shell out and eat into any potential returns. And you may not always be in a position to just keep holding it... but I'll come back to that in a minute.

I used to resort to the exact same self-deception. But who am I to argue if you can make all the monthly payments of principal and interest while still holding AAPL, and aren't forced to liquidate your position prematurely due to circumstances beyond your control.

Of course, if none of those pressures exist then I wonder why you'd need to borrow money you don't have in the first place. Because in order to not have those pressures, you'd have enough cash to never consider the Russian Roulette of margin trading... Why wouldn't you instead look for a manageable investment that, at a lower price relative to its value, will net you much more in the long run? Is it because you don't think you can find one? I found four or five in the past six months alone.

But I'm just a business analyst responsible for $400 million in revenue, what do I know. :rolleyes:

Its the only way I know how to invest. I didn't need the loan nesecarly I just wanted more time to pay plus build credit
 
Its the only way I know how to invest. I didn't need the loan nesecarly I just wanted more time to pay plus build credit

If you have less than $100,000 of your own capital, I'd strongly suggest just sticking to index funds and fixed yields. You aren't likely to outperform them over time unless you have substantial knowledge of finance and business valuation.

Sitting on AAPL is not a strategy, it's a hope. Imagine that opportunity didn't exist. What would your investment strategy be then? How would you then protect whatever principal you've gained or have remaining?
 
If you have less than $100,000 of your own capital, I'd strongly suggest just sticking to index funds and fixed yields. You aren't likely to outperform them over time unless you have substantial knowledge of finance and business valuation.

Interesting, I was thinking something along those lines. I'm a semi recent immigrant to the US and since I got here and started working (7 months ago +- I managed to save $10,000 (ridiculous amount to most of you, I know, but I started from 0 and you have to start somewhere) and now I want to invest my money (not trade) and decided to finally do something I've been meaning for a while, invest in the market, but I do agree that until someone like myself, a complete newbie, has more experience it's safer to just go with some Index funds, even though I'm eager to try "real" stocks.

So you'd say $100,000 is a safe benchmark to start trading stocks other than funds? I'd have to wait so long...
 

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What are your thoughts for Tuesday's earnings? And the stock reaction? It looks like the Verizon and Qualcomm news is putting a damper on the expectations. The stock is getting pretty expensive so I'm trading options going into earnings. Risky but this volatility actually helps.
 
Today's close $572.98 - cap $534.23B .

Another $13.5B drop....

(This is to point out the absurdity of thinking that day-to-day market cap numbers have any significance whatsoever....)


Of course they're meaningless but what else will MR or the other sites have to write about? Way too much of their articles are filler now. And I laugh every time I see the link for them hiring writers.
 
Interesting, I was thinking something along those lines. I'm a semi recent immigrant to the US and since I got here and started working (7 months ago +- I managed to save $10,000 (ridiculous amount to most of you, I know, but I started from 0 and you have to start somewhere) and now I want to invest my money (not trade) and decided to finally do something I've been meaning for a while, invest in the market, but I do agree that until someone like myself, a complete newbie, has more experience it's safer to just go with some Index funds, even though I'm eager to try "real" stocks.

So you'd say $100,000 is a safe benchmark to start trading stocks other than funds? I'd have to wait so long...

Well, $100,000 suggests a couple of things:

1. You've taken some time to build up capital, and (theoretically) have more respect for it than someone who is borrowing to trade (which, to be completely honest, is patently stupid at any level... note that Berkshire Hathaway doesn't even make entire acquisitions with debt, and notice the results).

2. You have a sufficient amount of capital to adequately diversify holdings in securities, index funds, fixed yields and cash.

3. Unless you acquired the money fast and young, you've probably worked hard and/or have a better academic background (on average) than someone more likely to play fast and loose with money. People who have ample amounts of money don't tend to gamble or buy lottery tickets nearly as much as people who have very little of it. So there's a different mindset. You can't get to certain wealth levels and, most importantly, stay there without some financial sense of responsibility.

Whether you have the expertise, however, to analyze individual companies is another question... but I look at it as a two bar process. I wouldn't even manage another person's money unless they have at least the ability to understand what I'm doing with it and why. I'd feel much better if the reason I'm managing their funds is not because they're uneducated in finance, but because they don't have the time to do the amount of research and analysis I do.

But I guess my key question now is why you're "eager" to trade stocks. It can't be, by your own admission, based on experience, knowledge and comfort in the world of business valuation. I'd say it seems exciting to you. But the prospect of losing money is not exciting. Patience pays off in every way. To put it another way: the kind of business valuation I do today isn't something I started doing. I have nearly 20 years experience at it, an academic background and a continuing professional role in it... And there's still some aspects of business valuation that I'm not expertly versed in.

Index funds are, essentially, "real" stocks... just pooled into one fund of which you buy a fractional share of the entire cross-section. It's better for you both because the index fund will mitigate risk better than your own picks could, produce better returns than you are likely to, and allow you access to an optimal risk/return portfolio without having to have so much capital to yourself canvas across hundreds of securities individually.

I'm not even sure that some people with several hundred thousand or a few million necessarily should be doing anything but investing in index funds, unless they're up to the task of not aggressive trading, but aggressive research.

Even a certain percentage of my portfolio stays in low to no risk propositions... it's practically free money. Why not? I just don't look at buying and selling securities as something "cool" any more. It's just something I do because I have more experience analyzing business value than many other things I could be doing.

I'm not even comfortable with derivatives, because the market for them is even less tied to operations... Derivatives are pure speculation. Futures, for example... I don't trust the concept of hedging a real instrument of equity with a bet on an unpredictable outcome, rather than hedging securities with a margin of safety, as well as through dividends, diversification and asset allocation.
 
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Today's close $572.98 - cap $534.23B .

Another $13.5B drop....

(This is to point out the absurdity of thinking that day-to-day market cap numbers have any significance whatsoever....)

This is a perfect illustration that price and value are two different things. The operating performance of Apple did not decrease accordingly during that same time period.

There's opportunities like this all the time. The only difference is that even at the current market price, Apple is still well above its intrinsic value.

What's interesting is, a few days ago, CNBC went berserk doing all kinds of bits on Berkshire Hathaway when it was disclosed that Warren Buffett has been diagnosed with prostate cancer. Lots of pontificating amounting to very little. The one person who had reasonable material knowledge, Whitney Tilson, was perplexed by being repeatedly asked about the "Buffett premium" which wasn't a factor in a conservative valuation done by Tilson Funds that places Berkshire at $297 billion, or about $100 billion above their current market price.

Meanwhile, Joe Terranova, Chief Investment Strategist for Virtus, is over there making wild speculations based on absolutely no math.... talking about completely meaningless multiples. He completely forgets that the entry price for Berkshire Common A is so high that it pretty much weeds out speculators, and consequently Berkshire's price generally sticks pretty close to the current carrying value of its investments.

The immediate answer that you'll get from junior Wall Street hypesters and hedge fund managers is that you want to carry stocks in your portfolio that will skyrocket, rather than stay close to book value. But this ignores a simple reality: The elasticity and downward pressure of stocks with unsustainable gains in price out of proportion with growth in operating cash is very high, whereas the other way one can see the value of their investment increase dramatically is by growth of the carrying value of the business. In other words, true growth.

Do I really want to lay out a lot of cash to bet on share price growing purely by relatively blind speculation, which are equally likely to go in the toilet by speculation? No. At the end of the day, I want to hold on to a business that's actually experiencing organic growth because, more often than not, these businesses experience sustainable long term appreciation in market price... Why? Look at the volume of shares outstanding held by institutions. They know, whether they admit it or not, what the carrying value of operations are. If they're actually paying 16, 20 or 100 times working capital for a company, then they're as blatantly stupid as the people who banked hundreds of billions of dollars on the real estate market never going down when in fact the Schiller Housing Index proves that housing prices haven't appreciated more than 0.7% average annual compounded growth for 100 years, adjusting for inflation.
 
That did not last long. Today AAPL capitalization dropped below $500 billion. Still too high.
 
Apple - following in Microsoft footsteps ($600 billion down to $200 billion)

Not true. Ballmer is an idiot while Apple has strong leadership in Cook. Also Apple has a strong portfolio of products that keep having legs(iPhone, iPad, iPod, Mac). Every division of Apple is super profitable, while Microsoft has 2 divisions(Online, Entertainment & Devices) which are losing money. Essentially 90% of Apple's profits are in products that were created in the last 5 years(iPhone & iPad) while Microsoft is still reliant on monopoly legacy businesses. Apple stock should go to $1K eventually.
 
I've never seen a stock valued so highly increase so much in so short a time.

Which means somebody is going to cash in and leave everyone else holding the bag at some point.

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Not true. Ballmer is an idiot while Apple has strong leadership in Cook. Also Apple has a strong portfolio of products that keep having legs(iPhone, iPad, iPod, Mac). Every division of Apple is super profitable, while Microsoft has 2 divisions(Online, Entertainment & Devices) which are losing money. Essentially 90% of Apple's profits are in products that were created in the last 5 years(iPhone & iPad) while Microsoft is still reliant on monopoly legacy businesses. Apple stock should go to $1K eventually.

From what I've read, Cook is a respectable person.

What Apple's stock will do is not the same as what some people want it to do, though.

A pity Microsoft is losing money with entertainment - being a non-loyalist-without-due-cause and platform-agnostic myself, Kinect rocks the house and nothing compares...
 
I never understood stock investing. It seems like a pyramid scheme, you buy and hope that it goes up so you can sell it off for a profit to the next guy who also hopes it just goes up and up. Same thing as real estate.

Thing is Apple is swimming in so much cash, they never needed investors. So all this AAPL market cap is pretty much monopoly money.
 
It's happening.

Close today $530, market cap under $500B - lost over $100/share and $100B in market cap since this story was posted.

...and mainstream media stories like Can Apple's Stock Get Back on Track? don't help.

What's the sound of a bubble bursting?

I think you meant $630, not $530. It went down further today, closing around $610. I picked up some shares at $612 based on a fundamentals analysis that places the long term intrinsic value of the company at ~$670 per share. Operating cash flows have grown tremendously in the past four years but I caution that the stock fluctuates so closely to intrinsic value that this is NOT something I'd ever go "all in" (nor is hardly any company, for that matter) but worth using a very small fraction of your total portfolio to risk acquiring when underpriced.
 
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