Apple's New Rechargeable AA Batteries Actually Sanyo Eneloops?

[glavoie84]

Seriously people, read a bit about all different technologies of NiMH batteries before bashing on this product. Standard NiMH are useless for low drain devices like their keyboard and mouse because they often self-discharge within a few days! Now we have the low self discharge batteries that allows the use of rechargeable in devices where they would have been useless before. We've seen these number wars before and the conclusion was always that bigger is not better. Remember the GHz war? To create low self discharge batteries, there had to be a cut somewhere and some capacity got taken away to make place for a thicker separator that won't let the electrons flow inside the cells as fast as before. This thicker separator also won't wear out as fast as in higher capacity cells that last nowhere near the "rated" 500 cycles. Often, you're lucky to get 50 cycles out of them and they start to self-discharge completely within a few days after as few as 10 cycles.

Apple really DID make a great move by encouraging people to use rechargeable batteries and based on the appearances, the product isn't bad at all!

 

[Apple-NoEscape]

One of apples most stupid products in a while.

 

[Erwin-Br]

If this is not a surprise, why is everybody acting upset and aggravated? Be glad they're using Eneloops. These are fantastic batteries.

 

[Argon21]

i've been a user of rechargeable AAs for a long time now, and all of my current ones are rated 2700mAh -- that's 40% greater capacity, resulting in significantly longer life per charge.

i was considering purchasing this charger setup but realize there is little to be gained by it if the 6 batteries are only 1900mAh versions.

If you've been using them so long, I would think you should know the difference between the various NiMH types. Clearly you do not. I have plenty of the 2700 mah batteries myself. They have a very high self-discharge rate. Charge them up fully, then stick them in your closet. They'll be nearly dead again after just a month or two, without even using them. They self-discharge. They're great if you charge them up for an immediate use purpose - like for a flashlight just before a camping trip. But they're terrible for low-current electronics like a bluetooth mouse or keyboard, since they will self-discharge in a month.

The Apple and Sanyo 1900 mAh batteries are different. They're a newer type of very low self-discharge NiMH batteries. You can charge them up, then stick them on a shelf for a year and they're still charged up. These are the best kind to use in low-current electronics like keyboard, mouse, tv remote, etc. The 2700 mAh batteries last about 4 weeks in my Apple keyboard. The 1900 mAh batteries last about 4 months. Your other clue that these are different, is that when you buy them, they come already charged up and ready to use right out of the box!! No 2700 mAh batteries are like that.

Again, I have both, but use them for different purposes.

 

[glavoie84]

If this is not a surprise, why is everybody acting upset and aggravated? Be glad they're using Eneloops. These are fantastic batteries.

+1! It seems people just love uninformed whining. This is getting ridiculous... Apple is just offering the best NiMH technology (low self discharge) to their customers for use with their wireless devices. There nothing more to say!

 

[glavoie84]

Again, I have both, but use them for different purposes. The 2700 mAh batteries last about 4 weeks in my Apple keyboard. The 1900 mAh batteries last about 4 months before needing a recharge.

Excellent! I didn't have numbers for the Apple keyboard when I wrote earlier about the LSD cells lasting longer than the standard ones.

 

[JeffDM]

personally, i don't care whether they are re-branded rechargeables or not (i'd assumed they were), but what this discussion caused me to realize is that they are rated 1900mAh.

i've been a user of rechargeable AAs for a long time now, and all of my current ones are rated 2700mAh -- that's 40% greater capacity, resulting in significantly longer life per charge.

i was considering purchasing this charger setup but realize there is little to be gained by it if the 6 batteries are only 1900mAh versions.

Out of curiosity, what battery and charger do you prefer?

The only 2700 batteries I've found so far are by Yuasa, but the description says they're ideal for high drain devices, suggesting that it might be the high-self-discharge type of chemistry. The Yuasa batteries that are slow self-discharge are rated at 2000 (they call it enitime), where they'll hold most of their charge for over a year. For keyboards and mice, I would think that the slow self-discharge kind would last longer between charges than the higher capacity batteries.

 

[3282868]

Thoughts and questions for you guys

1. I agree that these rechargeable batteries are not as "high tech" as Apple claims. However, we (the general MacRumors community) are much more tech savvy than the average consumer. Apple has never produced a product such as this before. As the average consumer that constitutes the majority of Apples market most are not even aware of rechargeable batteries and if they are they dismiss them as impractical as older systems/cheaper systems have tended towards. In fact, as an ex Apple employee some have never even heard of such a tech. For Apple to sell a $29 product with the sale of a new Mac or wireless peripheral device that saves a great deal of money for the customer over the average product life cycle while diminishing the ewaste of disposable batteries is a great step in the right direction. Surely there are better systems out there, but the average consumer isn't tech savvy enough to know this nor do they have the time to study the science behind this tenchnology. I'm certain Apple will eventually improve upon this product but for now it's a great way to save money and push the general consumer towards thinking "green".

2. What is a great rechargeable battery system on the market? I have a crumby RadioShack charger and I need to replace it with a much more advanced system. An suggestions would be hugely appreciated. Thanks!

 

[glavoie84]

For batteries: Eneloop or Duracell Pre-Charged (also rebadged Eneloop, often refereed as Duraloop)
For charger: Try to find a charger with 4 channels. Many of them only have two channels and you need to charge batteries in pair. If you want an advanced charger, the Powerex/Maha C9000 is a really great charger/analyzer for NiMH batteries:

http://www.thomasdistributing.com/s...html?SP_id=&osCsid=6dgp3m9tsvht77bonp78maub94

If I did not already have a ton of Eneloop/Duraloop and this Maha charger, I would probably consider the Apple charger. It probably makes a great travel charger. I'm not an Apple fanboy, I'm a rechargeable fanboy. I've read too much about them and I use them anywhere I can. Seriously saved me a lot of money until now...

1. I agree that these rechargeable batteries are not as "high tech" as Apple claims. However, we (the general MacRumors community) are much more tech savvy than the average consumer. Apple has never produced a product such as this before. As the average consumer that constitutes the majority of Apples market most are not even aware of rechargeable batteries and if they are they dismiss them as impractical as older systems/cheaper systems have tended towards. In fact, as an ex Apple employee some have never even heard of such a tech. For Apple to sell a $29 product with the sale of a new Mac or wireless peripheral device that saves a great deal of money for the customer over the average product life cycle while diminishing the ewaste of disposable batteries is a great step in the right direction. Surely there are better systems out there, but the average consumer isn't tech savvy enough to know this nor do they have the time to study the science behind this tenchnology. I'm certain Apple will eventually improve upon this product but for now it's a great way to save money and push the general consumer towards thinking "green".

2. What is a great rechargeable battery system on the market? I have a crumby RadioShack charger and I need to replace it with a much more advanced system. An suggestions would be hugely appreciated. Thanks!

 

[Vulpinemac]

No, an advanced charger should have at least 3 charging modes (trickle, fast, drain-n-charge), be able to charge any number of batteries individually without affecting the others, and have a display that gives useful information. Probably also should cover multiple battery types unlike Apple's, mine does AAA, AA, C, D.

Why?

If the charger is fully automatic, charges the batteries to their required level and effectively turns itself off so that it doesn't then re-drain the batteries, then it's a very advanced model as far as I'm concerned. I don't need 'multiple battery types' because I only use AA, I don't need a display that gives me useless information ("Hey, your battery's charged!) and honestly, since you tend to use batteries in pairs, then dog-gone it charge them in pairs so they are constantly matched. Something that does all of this automatically for a relatively low price is a far superior product than one which includes a bunch of bells and whistles for anywhere from 2x to 5x the price. It's only hardware, silly.

And before you go hitting me with that 'Double Standards' noise about Apple's computers being overpriced for what they are, well, let me tell you something. I know the insides of computers better than most of you, because I don't just look at board-level maintenance. Go out sometime and build your own motherboard. I'll promise you, it won't take too long for you to realize that those tiny components can have a huge effect on the reliability and stability of that board. Remember that 'Capacitor' incident some years back? That's what came of thinking 'cheaper is better.' Not very many Macs were hit by that problem, were they?

 

[Vulpinemac]

Coming from a green perspective...

alot of you cats seem to be going on about how you amazing a rechargeable batter recharger is so energy efficient and how its 10x greater (or whatever the value is) than any other charger on the market. I beat (most of you) by turning off my TV's in the house near the powerpoint. Most TV standby pulls 1/3 of its stated rating. So you've got a big plasma TV/LCD blasting about 100-200 (from 300-600) Watts, even when its not on. And you still got the pretentious guys talking about how great a charger is compared to the rest because of its EFFICIENCY.

Sorry just saying.... but honestly, if people really gave a ***** about saving electricity, you'd do a little more then spend money on the most high tech recharger...

While I don't argue the point you're trying to make, I honestly have to argue the numbers you throw. Might I suggest you try using one of those outlet monitors that are readily available from Walmart* for instance? TV standby today tends to draw less than 1W; computer standby (with display signal off) tends to draw only about 5-7 watts. The point is, while your device might pull a lot of current when operating, your desktop computer a prime example, their standby or sleep modes now tend to draw less than 1/20th the power and in many cases less than 1/50th the power. I'll grant this can still add up, but at least TRY to make your argument somewhat realistic or your whole argument will be ignored as fantasy.

 

[Bengt77]

"Come to Candy Mountain, Charlie, it's a land of sweets and joy, and joyness!"

Oh man, that flash animation was awesome! Thanks for reminding me.

 

[magamo]

Sanyo's Eneloops are awesome butteries as they are. With a good charger designed by Apple, I have nothing to complain.

 

[Vulpinemac]

So for the price of 6 of these batteries and a charger I can buy close to 150 Kirkland branded batteries from CostCo and not have to worry about charging them and the additional cost of that.

If you recycle the batteries when you're done, what's the big deal? Even that fancy Prius has a battery in it that needs to be disposed of eventually...

How many people really recycle those 150 Kirkland branded batteries rather than simply tossing them into the trash where they become Hazardous Waste? Those 150 batteries don't last as long as those 6 "Apple" batteries either in overall usage or in shelf life. One pair of these "Apple" batteries should last about 1,000 charges, so that means you'll use 6,000 Kirkland brand batteries before these 6 "Apple" branded batteries need replacing.

Now--explain your economics to me. How is 6,000 Alkaline batteries cheaper than 6 Eneloop batteries?

 

[Vulpinemac]

An environmentally charger should include a fan because the most environmentally damaging part of the setup is disposal of the dead battery and the best way to shorten your battery's life is to overheat it during charging.

If you're overheating it during charging, then you're charging it too quickly. It's not a fan that's needed, but a processor that can control the charging current.

As for "vampire draw" I'm 100% sure that by turning my charger off overnight at the socket (why do Americans not have switches on their wall sockets?) I'm drawing less power than Apple's overnight vampire draw, even if I miss both the green light and the little charging complete LCD indication for a few minutes after it switches to trickle charge mode. And since it runs off 12V DC I can plug it straight into a car, so I don't have to waste more money on already overpriced batteries.

On the other hand, if you keep the batteries plugged into the charger, interestingly enough you're going to see the batteries discharge through the circuit as reverse voltage at roughly .7 volts--the amount required to drive current through a diode (and every solid state connection is essentially nothing but a complex of diodes.) Even when you turn off your outlet, those batteries are still connected to an internal circuit that can drain the batteries over time.

Now, I can't claim to know how Apple is minimizing that 'vampire draw' exactly, but even the simple trick of supplying just enough voltage to prevent that reverse current would not only prevent the draining of the now-charged batteries, but since it's also not moving any current in the forward direction either, the real power draw is also minimized. At an average cost of only 35¢ a year, I think we can safely say the standby costs are minimal for the charger.

 

[JeffDM]

1. I agree that these rechargeable batteries are not as "high tech" as Apple claims.

...

2. What is a great rechargeable battery system on the market? I have a crumby RadioShack charger and I need to replace it with a much more advanced system. An suggestions would be hugely appreciated. Thanks!

I think this might be it if you want AA type batteries. If you have a high discharge device, you might benefit from the type that doesn't make any claim to being able to hold a charge for a year, and store more of a charge, but it won't sit for long. If you have a low discharge device, such as a TV remote, wireless mouse or keyboard, then I think the eneloop might well be the best you can get in AA type cell.

 

[Bengt77]

Why would I ever want to do any of those "advanced" things? Just charge my **** batteries so I can use them!

Under normal circumstances, most people are definitely best off with a simple charger that just charges batteries. I completely agree.

But when (and not if) a battery is in less than healthy condition, a charger that only charges in pairs is useless. It will wear out the healthy battery by putting in more charge than it can actually handle, while the less healthy battery will still be as unhealthy as it was. Chargers that have individual charging circuits circumvent this problem and the more advanced chargers do many things in addition to that. No, under normal circumstances you definitely don't need a charger that can do a discharge-charge cycle, but a time may come when you do need it. Without it, an unhealthy rechargeable battery is wasted and you can throw it away. And at the same time you can dump one other battery, as you can only charge in pairs with your simple charger.

 

[Vulpinemac]

(snip)I don't know about you but when I'm done charging batteries I pull the charger out of the socket and put the batteries in whatever I needed them for.

Consider what you just said for a moment. Essentially what you're saying is that you don't put batteries into the charger until you need them, then wait 6 hours for them to charge and put them back into the device.
Or are you saying that you swap the batteries in your device as soon as they're recharged--every 6 hours or so?

My point is that what you said just doesn't make logical sense. If your bluetooth mouse or keyboard dies, do you really take out the batteries, put them into the charger and sit idly by waiting for them to recharge? Honestly I don't know of too many people who do. They want to swap the batteries and put the depleted ones into the charger so that they'll be ready for the next swapout. The problem with previous types of rechargeables is that they wouldn't have any charge left (or very little) when you swapped them back into the device. And if you left them in the charger, you either had them on constant charge/discharge on a very short cycle--which quickly developed a 'memory' in the battery making them useless within months--or the charger switched off that circuit allowing them to sit idle until they're pulled for use or, if you had a more pricy model, would wait until they self-discharged to a certain minimum voltage before recharging them again. In other words, once into the charger, forever forgotten until needed.

Apple's pretentious marketspeak about materials and designs reminds me of the Crunchy Frog sketch by Monty Python:

Praline: What, a raw frog?

Milton: We use only the finest baby frogs, dew picked and flown from Iraq, cleansed in finest quality spring water, lightly killed, and then sealed in a succulent Swiss quintuple smooth treble cream milk chocolate envelope and lovingly frosted with glucose!

Praline: That's as maybe, it's still a frog.

The pretention is yours, for pretending to know exactly how Apple does what they do. You would do better to compare between a tree frog and a toad; one climbs trees and makes beautiful music--the other just croaks. They serve the same purpose--eating bugs--but they perform that task quite differently.

 

[Vulpinemac]

if I am reading this right apple is basicly doing Marketing BS to get the numbers it want.
Sell it at a lower mh rating so it will "hold a charge" longer is PURE PURE BS.

Typical apple.

Typical cheapskate company: We know it's only good for 1800mah, but if we market it as a 2100mah, we can charge more money! We'll just tell them their device just uses more current; they won't know!

 

[Veri]

If you're overheating it during charging, then you're charging it too quickly. It's not a fan that's needed, but a processor that can control the charging current.

Temperature of cell depends on ambient environment as well as charging current. On a hot day, you can either blast a fan at it or turn down the current and wait longer for it to charge. (If you're waiting 6 hours, OTOH...)

Now, I can't claim to know how Apple is minimizing that 'vampire draw' exactly, but even the simple trick of supplying just enough voltage to prevent that reverse current would not only prevent the draining of the now-charged batteries, but since it's also not moving any current in the forward direction either, the real power draw is also minimized. At an average cost of only 35¢ a year, I think we can safely say the standby costs are minimal for the charger.

Is the circuit trickle charging the batteries at their self-discharge rate? This is obviously not very much for the Eneloops...

In other words, once into the charger, forever forgotten until needed.

The.. erm... something in me can't comprehend an energy source being wired up to an energy source so they can battle with each other just to allow me to be too lazy to move my finger about 50cm to a charger to disconnect a circuit. And do people only have 2 batteries they ever need to charge at once? I sometimes want to approach people and ask, "Yes, this all looks very fancy, but what do you use to do your real work?"

 

[RT2020]

LOL... and how much do they charge for this?

 

[Vulpinemac]

I do use the options on my charger. For a NiMH battery, the recommended charging current is 10% of capacity. So for a 2000 maH Eneloop, the proper charging current is 200 ma. I have some 2900 maH AA's and I charge those at 300 ma.

There is no way for a charger to "Detect" what is the capacity or type of the battery. Therefore, the Apple Charger is hard coded to charge at a certain rate, for a certain amount of time. What is that rate? What is that time? Nobody knows!! Also, does it have the ability to discharge a battery? Can you customize the discharge rate? What about to condition it? (discharge, charge, discharge, charge). And why no display to show you the health statistics on the batteries?? My more advanced charger has all of these.

Giving all these options does indeed make a charger more advanced than a cheap simple one that has none of these features or functions and is "dumb" with only a single fixed charge current and time.

But pointless to argue since stupid "review" does not even talk about the only interesting piece - the charge.r

So what you're telling us is that it is impossible to program a processor to test and analyze a battery, determine the best rate of charge from a number of factors, monitor the charging current and maybe even the battery's temperature and stop charging once the flow rate drops below a certain point.

Hmph. Who would'a thunk it. All those high-end programmable chargers are absolutely impossible. They're total fakes. I guess I'll just have to go back to those expensive Alkaline batteries again.

(/sarcasm)

 

[6andy6]

Lol.

Not sure which is sadder- the article (which is quite informative really but it's only on a charger and batteries) or the Apple fanboys who see any criticism of their god and collectively cry tears. Oh and put in their Tin Foil hats and see Macrumours as having some conspiracy to bring Apple down.
Gawd- they only said it was rebranding batteries boys - it's not the end of the world.

 

[pooryou]

Eneloops are the best rechargeables so good choice by Apple.

 

[kernkraft]

One of apples most stupid products in a while.

Didn't you mean to say that "One of Apple's most stupid products in white"?