I can understand how you could think that a casual forum user was misinformed. But you think that a dozen prominent cybersecurity experts in an independent study, not to mention privacy advocates, security researchers, cryptography experts, academics, politicians, and even employees within the company are all also wrong? Please expand - do you think all of these separate entities are uneducated or have something to gain?
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Apple's Proposed Phone-Scanning Child Safety Features 'Invasive, Ineffective, and Dangerous,' Say Cybersecurity Researchers in New Study
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CSAM scanning definitely destroys privacy. Apple was and is always for privacy. If apple implements this, it will go against its core values. Hopefully apple will reconsider its decision regarding CSAM
No, I don’t think they will. Here’s what I think the problem is.
Google, Facebook, Amazon and Microsoft all scan for CSAM on their servers because they own the infrastructure that their services run on.
Apple runs iCloud on third party cloud services that they pay usage fees for. The cost of scanning every single picture that goes to iCloud would be eye-watering. So what I think Apple has done is pass the processing cost onto the customers by running the scanning service on device. So Apple customers are picking up the tab for this in terms of battery life and processor usage.
Now all they have to do is convince everyone that this is more private.
At the moment, it doesn’t appear to be sticking.
Yup all cloud providers have been doing this for a good 5 years or more now.
The big difference is the servers in the cloud are owned by someone else. Hence they can scan your stuff for whatever they want. Also there is a hard line, in that the cloud cannot actually scan anything you don't give to the cloud.
Scanning your personal property is a much more tricky situation. The best analogy would be if Apple announced they planned to come into your home and search your house/garage/property once a week....all without a court order, probable cause, etc. Oh and Apple won't tell you what they are searching for (they say it is for naughty photos, but they don't let you watch them search your house, or show you what is on their checklist of "bad items" - so they could really look for anything they wanted while they were rummaging around). Just because Apple makes the iPhone, that doesn't give them any more legal right to scan your device without a warrant than Ford can come and search your personal Ford car/truck.
I honestly believe that if Apple had gone ahead with this, it would have been an endless stream of lawsuits.
Oh, that's not just an EU thing: similar legislation is in the works in the UK, Australia, Japan, India, the US, and probably a lot more countries.
Maybe they just had other intensions with this technology than child safety ??
I mean Heck. Facebook is not concerned about child safety.
I think it has everything to do with marketing. they scan your files or images and know your buying habits or other personal red flags.
I mean Heck. Facebook is not concerned about child safety.
I think it has everything to do with marketing. they scan your files or images and know your buying habits or other personal red flags.
That old chestnut. If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear.
By the same logic, if you have nothing to say then you won't mind if your Government bans free speech, right?
There are a small number of people who say things under the banner of freedom of speech that most people find repugnant. But the correct response is not to ban free speech for everyone. I'm sure most people would agree with that statement.
Similarly, because there are a small minority of phone users who carry out illegal and unwanted acts in a private manner the correct response is not to force all other phone users to forgo their own privacy to make it easier for said individuals to be discovered and brought before the courts.
These researchers have also exposed the fact that the proposed CSAM measures are likely to be easy to defeat. The argument is therefore not made that this will help children, a very worthy cause indeed.
CSAM is wrong. The EU is wrong. It all needs to stop.
This is incorrect. According to Apple's own infopage (emphasis mine):
The "nothing to hide" argument should not need further refuting by now: it's routinely abused to justify surveillance and privacy violations.
In general, I'm a firm believer of the following quote which, although in the context of government laws, IMHO applies to a lot of other contexts, this included:
They can fix this by not enabling it - period. As long as it is not in use and not in the operating systems in a functioning form, no government laws can force them to give them the tech that isn’t there.
Apple gets no more money from me for devices until this is resolved. Apple spends their time on tech to spy on us inside a device I own and yet gives us unfinished iOS 15 as buggy as ever. Priorities, and the end user doesn’t seem to be the priority anymore but foreign governments spying on their citizens are - go figure!
I got my Pinephone a few weeks ago, that’s where my new phone was bought. It’s still beta but makes calls and texts and I can get into all my socials from the web and not an app. I use Ubuntu Touch right now and this makes the perfect second phone. A dedicated sim installed and I am supporting a community focused an open source and privacy. This is the coolest purchasing experience in over a decade - just working on getting an old smartphone to work on Linux! BTW this phone has six physical kill switches for all components that are vulnerable. A removable battery and has been listed as one of the few phones virtually unable to be hacked and tracked.
I’m still keeping my iPhone 12 PM on iOS 14 and my S5 SS Apple Watch as my daily but I now support a third solution.
"According to the researchers, documents released by the European Union suggest that the bloc's governing body are seeking a similar program that would scan encrypted phones for both child sexual abuse as well as signs of organized crime and terrorist-related imagery."
This is the problem, the slippery slope where it starts just as 'saving the children' and moves on to something relatively vague like 'terrorism' (which is a highly subjective term and I'd assume means also looking at private messaging text) then on to full on spying on citizens for undesirable content like parodies of leaders or taking you child out of school for a holiday. It genuinely frightens me that people are naive enough to think that this wouldn't happen, if you don't put a stop too it now then it might take several years to move on from its original purpose but it will. Also, what will actually happen is criminals will move on from iPhones and Androids to specialist private devices where the technology isn't present, just look at the huge Encrophone network that was cracked a year or so ago to see it is already happening!
This is the problem, the slippery slope where it starts just as 'saving the children' and moves on to something relatively vague like 'terrorism' (which is a highly subjective term and I'd assume means also looking at private messaging text) then on to full on spying on citizens for undesirable content like parodies of leaders or taking you child out of school for a holiday. It genuinely frightens me that people are naive enough to think that this wouldn't happen, if you don't put a stop too it now then it might take several years to move on from its original purpose but it will. Also, what will actually happen is criminals will move on from iPhones and Androids to specialist private devices where the technology isn't present, just look at the huge Encrophone network that was cracked a year or so ago to see it is already happening!
Apple should not release this spyware on devices, if they need to do any scanning at all, it should be done in the cloud.
Since this first made news, I’ve switched to a Google Pixel running GrapheneOS, a Linux laptop and a Remarkable 2 e-ink pad.
I have not missed the Apple ecosystem one bit and it’s refreshing getting back to hardware/software companies rather than former computing company who now sees itself as a media conglomerate that has shunned it’s former principles.
I have not missed the Apple ecosystem one bit and it’s refreshing getting back to hardware/software companies rather than former computing company who now sees itself as a media conglomerate that has shunned it’s former principles.
Critics: "This will expand way beyond CSAM. They'll start with terrorism and other crimes."
Supporters: "No. Apple cares. It's about the children."
Europe: "Hold that thought."
Apple didn't even implement this and it's already starting to expand beyond CSAM like wildfire.
Supporters: "No. Apple cares. It's about the children."
Europe: "Hold that thought."
Apple didn't even implement this and it's already starting to expand beyond CSAM like wildfire.
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Lol, “ how can you object when it helps children?” they Started to screw pacifying techs in our brain- “how can you object when it helps children?” This crap reminds of when a bunch of scientists (researchers) who wanted to put a bunch of children on a watchlist because their brain scans were similar to serial killers. It would probably save lives but it will destroy so many childhoods in the name of safety.
”do u have something to hide?”
everybody does this is why we have a pasword lock on ou phone, beside it’s not scanning on a server but on the phone itself. your ability to have a personal live unknown by CORPOS is a natural aspect of life that those tech companies refuse to understand. I don’t mind the proper investigation of the FBI, or the police against offenders. Governments needs to stop fooling people by leaving the illegal spying , and collection of data to 3rd party tech companies. collecting them afterwards , and then pretending that they Are not violating our privacy. As a side note (politicians) should be expert - or at least tech savvy To make meaningful laws that protect people. The same way apple should at least have a branch to prepare for the eventual demands by other governments. Not just Tim CO with whatever PR statement they told him to use.
we (at least “ I “) just want it to be done the right way. I am not against making it harder for this kind of contents to be shared.
”do u have something to hide?”
everybody does this is why we have a pasword lock on ou phone, beside it’s not scanning on a server but on the phone itself. your ability to have a personal live unknown by CORPOS is a natural aspect of life that those tech companies refuse to understand. I don’t mind the proper investigation of the FBI, or the police against offenders. Governments needs to stop fooling people by leaving the illegal spying , and collection of data to 3rd party tech companies. collecting them afterwards , and then pretending that they Are not violating our privacy. As a side note (politicians) should be expert - or at least tech savvy To make meaningful laws that protect people. The same way apple should at least have a branch to prepare for the eventual demands by other governments. Not just Tim CO with whatever PR statement they told him to use.
we (at least “ I “) just want it to be done the right way. I am not against making it harder for this kind of contents to be shared.
In reality, I suspect Apple doesn’t have much choice.
If rumors are true, there are plans to go end to end encryption on iCloud - which will, in theory, prevent any image scanning on those servers.
Before the on device scanning PR disaster, Apple was already being accused in circles of creating a world where it’s too easy for people dealing in child pornography thanks to their privacy stances. Once end to end encryption is turned on for iCloud, governments - including the US - will likely throw a fit.
So, I suspect this was them trying to get in front of that. And I even think they have good intentions with it… but I think they messed up in both the announcements and how they talked about it and are now in a lose-lose situation. I’m not sure where they can even go from here - and based on the push in Europe and elsewhere, the time may come where many world governments will force it on all the device manufacturers anyway. Not that it would then make this ok, but our Big Brother future marches even closer and closer.
If rumors are true, there are plans to go end to end encryption on iCloud - which will, in theory, prevent any image scanning on those servers.
Before the on device scanning PR disaster, Apple was already being accused in circles of creating a world where it’s too easy for people dealing in child pornography thanks to their privacy stances. Once end to end encryption is turned on for iCloud, governments - including the US - will likely throw a fit.
So, I suspect this was them trying to get in front of that. And I even think they have good intentions with it… but I think they messed up in both the announcements and how they talked about it and are now in a lose-lose situation. I’m not sure where they can even go from here - and based on the push in Europe and elsewhere, the time may come where many world governments will force it on all the device manufacturers anyway. Not that it would then make this ok, but our Big Brother future marches even closer and closer.
Yes, they do, but Apple’s proposed system would have a CSAM hashtag database sitting on your iPhone and, if your iCloud Photo Library is enabled, cross-reference every photo you take before it is uploaded to iCloud. This is the difference. I guess if Apple had said something like, “By the way, we are going to start scanning iCloud for CSAM material just as Google, Dropbox & Co. are doing.”, it would not have caused so much resistance. 🤷🏻♂️
I totally agree, however, that Apple’s proposed way of doing it so far is very ineffective (you need more than 30 hashtags matched pictures/videos to trigger an alarm) and intrusive.
Duhhh. We been saying this. There's just been a handful of folks on here blinded by corporate worship.
What if you buy a car and then the car company installs a device to alert the police if you are speeding or if they randomly search your car for drug/alcohol and then notifies police if they find something. They are then just an arm of the police without the restraints. After all, this is in the name of safety.
What about after buying a house, would you be okay if the builder randomly inspects it to check for anything illegal? What if they discover you have been smoking in the house and you have children? Call the police in the name of child safety.
What about after buying a house, would you be okay if the builder randomly inspects it to check for anything illegal? What if they discover you have been smoking in the house and you have children? Call the police in the name of child safety.
Great. Now governments around the world is working very hard so they could literally arrest and kill anyone at their will, and there will be no chance for protest. What a world we are living in.
Ha ha i see a got a lot of negative comments which is fair enough, but why? what is it you are thinking? you know half the population will be thinking there is only one reason to object?
Isnt this already a reality, it’s just they are tightening the grip?