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So, do you think India is going to pay $200 more to bring good paying jobs to the US? That's the asymmetry you're looking at here: the US is willing to pay $200 less to buy a phone made in India, but are Indians willing (and able) to pay $200 to buy a phone made in the US?
I think the endgame is separate heavily automated/roboticized factories in each region - one in the US supplying North America, one in Europe, one in India, one in China, maybe a few more, they've already got a factory in Brazil, I think. If there is turmoil, or crazy inflation, or whatever, in a given region, it only affects supply in that region. Ship a few phones from one region to another occasionally if there are unexpected shortfalls, but mostly producing phones just for that region.

Along with this, I think it's vital to get chip production scattered around the globe, too, for the same stability/decentralization reasons (for instance, if China were to decide to invade Taiwan and the TSMC factories got heavily damaged, think of what an impact that would have worldwide, aside from the horrible implications for Taiwan). TSMC's new factory in the US is a good start (so is the CHIPS Act). We need more.
 
Absolutely absurd! It's only a phone, not a product that is going to change the world as we know it. Sequestering workers? Are they supposed to not have contact with anyone for fear of revealing a smaller notch or x zoom. My goodness,..grow up!
Really, it's a billion dollar business. Grow up? Apple is built on good product design. But, let's be honestly, a ton of hype as well. Secure is part of the anticipation. Leaks give people time to think about the purchase more and compeitotors to announce or show similar designs.

You also are missing the fact that some designs don't actually make out the door. They don't want to let everyone know they were even thinking that before time.
 
Customs in India are a nightmare. I have been dealing with customs and the DOT there for many years. It's' corrupt and a money grab. I guess it might be here in the US as well. But, for anything sensitive, we haven someone hand carry on a plane. So many things have been held hostage by customs. They can find any technicality to stop your import. We stop shipping prototypes there because because of theft (while in customs hands).

I would imagine if Apple had to ship prototypes, they would handle by hand with someone and not ship it via regular carrier. If they were smart. But, with the volume of parts and products, that might be tough. And, I'm sure, like China, the information is for sale.
 
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How about moving production to US and Europe instead and keep your little secrets.
Sure, how much would you like to pay extra to have it produced in the first, or second world, as per your examples?
 
Who exactly in the US or Europe is going to work at these factories, are you going to work there? We can’t even staff restaurants or airports. The waiter at my favorite Indian restaurant was running it solo and asked our table if anyone wanted to earn a few extra bucks by working there for $17/hour! Rationally, why work hard serving tables when door dashing pays up to $25/hour and you can pick your hours? No one is going to assemble phones for $15/hour, you’re gonna have to pay at least $30 to get someone to sit there for 8hours a day doing that kind of repetitive work if you can find someone with the dedication and fine motor skills required. By contrast Foxconn assembly line workers are paid around $3.20/hour. That doesn’t mean a phone is going to cost 10x more since assembly is only part of the cost and there are other elements like the BOM, distribution, R&D, SG&A, but a 20+% increase seems like in the ballpark.
To be fair, I agree with almost everything you’ve said. That out of the way, something has got to change. When China goes to war with Taiwan, there will be no iPhone. We will have to do to them what we did to Russia, and even if we don’t or it’s limited, Taiwan won’t be producing any chips. International battle lines are being drawn as we speak. If we can’t produce at home, then we will be adrift without a rudder or a sail. We’ve seen what chip shortages have done to our economy over the past couple years. Now imagine what zero chips will do!
 
I think the endgame is separate heavily automated/roboticized factories in each region - one in the US supplying North America, one in Europe, one in India, one in China, maybe a few more, they've already got a factory in Brazil, I think. If there is turmoil, or crazy inflation, or whatever, in a given region, it only affects supply in that region. Ship a few phones from one region to another occasionally if there are unexpected shortfalls, but mostly producing phones just for that region.

Along with this, I think it's vital to get chip production scattered around the globe, too, for the same stability/decentralization reasons (for instance, if China were to decide to invade Taiwan and the TSMC factories got heavily damaged, think of what an impact that would have worldwide, aside from the horrible implications for Taiwan). TSMC's new factory in the US is a good start (so is the CHIPS Act). We need more.

I don't think that's what the person I replied to had in mind-- I think they were picturing this being a jobs program for the US with lots of American's doing the assembly and other American's happily paying more for their phones because nationalism.

Stanislaw Ulam once challenged Samuelson to name one theory in all of the social sciences that is both true and nontrivial. Several years later, Samuelson responded with David Ricardo's theory of comparative advantage: "That it is logically true need not be argued before a mathematician; that is not trivial is attested by the thousands of important and intelligent men who have never been able to grasp the doctrine for themselves or to believe it after it was explained to them."​



Getting more automated is obviously the glidepath we're on. The numbers of people you're describing isn't absurd-- I remember reading that Amazon was concerned that they'd eventually drain the labor pool. Since Amazon has a policy of not rehiring people terminated for cause, and their policies are so draconian and turn over so high, they were calculating how long they had before there'd be no qualified applicants left. Amazon sees automation as the solution too.

But once Apple is sufficiently well automated, I'm not sure it follows that they need quite so much geographic diversity. Spreading out their factories will just add to their operating cost and if they don't need to hire laborers, but need a pool of qualified technicians to maintain the factory, they're more likely to just establish production in a stable country. There's car factories all over the world because cars are heavy to transport, phones don't have that problem.

The exception might be protectionist trade laws. I'm pretty sure that's a lot of the reason Apple set up in India-- I'm pretty sure they've instituted laws that require, or at least heavily favor, companies with a manufacturing presence in India. But then, if Apple doesn't need low cost manufacturing for export, then it's not clear how many hoops Apple will go through to import into India and China.
 
To be fair, I agree with almost everything you’ve said. That out of the way, something has got to change. When China goes to war with Taiwan, there will be no iPhone. We will have to do to them what we did to Russia, and even if we don’t or it’s limited, Taiwan won’t be producing any chips. International battle lines are being drawn as we speak. If we can’t produce at home, then we will be adrift without a rudder or a sail. We’ve seen what chip shortages have done to our economy over the past couple years. Now imagine what zero chips will do!
Absolutely, I’d totally be in support of producing iDevices locally, I’m just saying that if we manufacture locally everyone just needs to recalibrate themselves for sustained, systemic inflation and limited supply. I just went to the supermarket and saw that a dozen eggs are now $4.20 up from $1.50. Everyone will just get used to increased pricing in electronics as well. When we do bring iPhone manufacturing locally, people also need to just get used to shortages and waiting for their phone just like they wait months for a new car since the lines probably won’t be able to hire large quantities of seasonal assemblers that ramp up for launch day. Delayed gratification is a good character trait to learn.

The upside is that the price of iPhones will rise sufficiently that it will be priced out of many developing regions so Apple won’t need to produce quite as many and they won’t be as challenged staffing the factories.
 
The upside is that the price of iPhones will rise sufficiently that it will be priced out of many developing regions so Apple won’t need to produce quite as many and they won’t be as challenged staffing the factories.

Congratulations!! You solved a big problem for Apple. Their employees were really puzzled, they saw your post, and everyone shouted VOILA!!! :)
 
I don't think that's what the person I replied to had in mind-- I think they were picturing this being a jobs program for the US with lots of American's doing the assembly and other American's happily paying more for their phones because nationalism.
Oh, you and I are on the same page. I think they see the number of jobs generated in China for iPhone manufacturing and think that translates to being able to have an equivalent number of jobs here in the US. I've been trying to make the point that they don't comprehend how enormous of an undertaking that would be - having to build basically a gigantic Apple city - to do it the same way as it's being done in China, and how you are actually going to have a lot of trouble getting hundreds of thousands of people to relocate to this new densely packed Apple city. I think they're making a whole bunch of promises they can't keep, on the part of all these supposed workers about what hoops they'll jump through in order to get a 40 hour a week factory job in a brand new town, sitting at a work bench doing very high precision detail work assembling phones for 8 hours a day, then going home to live in housing that's one step removed from company dormitories. I think in reality you wouldn't be able to get many hundreds of thousands of Americans to sign up for that. A quick search suggested Foxconn has around 350k workers in Shenzhen. The person we've been responding to suggested 3 shifts of 300k each would be a good idea in the US. With spares, management, etc., that's in the neighborhood of a million factory workers. In one densely packed city. All working at the same plant doing the same thing. I don't think there's a snowball's chance in hell of that actually happening - not because Apple doesn't have the wherewithal to build it, but because you won't get a million Americans to relocate there to do that work. So, yeah, automation is the future.

Setting up multiple plants around the world makes Apple more resilient against price fluctuations (eh, imbalances in currency exchange rates between regions and such), things "going excitingly wrong" in specific areas (again, if China were to heavily damage Taiwan in an invasion attempt next week/month/year, Apple would be screwed, or, say, "covid-23" causes China to shut down Shenzhen again), and, as you say, protectionism. IIRC, that's the main reason Apple has a factory in Brazil, and one of the reasons they're setting up manufacturing in India. I don't know that they need dozens of factories, but a handful scattered around the globe makes them more resilient in the long run, and Apple is better than most companies at playing the long game. I think the overhead of more technicians is offset by the other advantages. Plus, you know, the cost savings from not having to pay a million Americans to do detailed assembly work 24/7.
 
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When we all know what’s the price of labour in China, India or Vietnam, the question you should be asking is why won’t shareholders take a cut in their profits and move production to somewhere safe, like Europe or US. In the old days of Nokia and Ericsson’s mobiles dominating the market, once the tech matured prices fell and stayed that way until Steve Jobs did it better
 
What a riot you'll be in the apple store.

You know there won't be a way to ask "where was it made", that won't be deeply suspicious at minimum.
what are you talking about it’s clearly written where they’re made it’s a legal requirement they can’t hide it and I’ll NEVER pay premium money for them if they’re made in the most deprived place in the world just because Apple’s next level greed
It’s not like there aren’t equally capable options
 
what are you talking about it’s clearly written where they’re made it’s a legal requirement they can’t hide it and I’ll NEVER pay premium money for them if they’re made in the most deprived place in the world just because Apple’s next level greed
It’s not like there aren’t equally capable options
Wouldn't have been the worst thing in the world for you to clarify why you didn't want to buy something made in India. That kind of sentiment gets expressed a lot by people with far less pure motivations than yours.
 
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Wouldn't have been the worst thing in the world for you to clarify why you didn't want to buy something made in India. That kind of sentiment gets expressed a lot by people with far less pure motivations than yours.
If you read what I wrote probably,you’ll see that I mentioned the reason.
If Apple made their lower end products there I wouldn’t complain (because I don’t buy lower end ones ;eg standard iPad,standard iPhone/SE,watch SE) but when I pay premium I can’t accept a product that is made in India a country that resembles poverty and doesn’t have any electronics/technology background.
No one wants to pay for a Rolex if it’s made in India.
No one wants to pay for a Mercedes if it was made in India.
etc etc
China is different,India is not known for making electronics.and I don’t mean no offence to Indian people.
 
If you read what I wrote probably,you’ll see that I mentioned the reason.
If Apple made their lower end products there I wouldn’t complain (because I don’t buy lower end ones ;eg standard iPad,standard iPhone/SE,watch SE) but when I pay premium I can’t accept a product that is made in India a country that resembles poverty and doesn’t have any electronics/technology background.
No one wants to pay for a Rolex if it’s made in India.
No one wants to pay for a Mercedes if it was made in India.
etc etc
China is different,India is not known for making electronics.and I don’t mean no offence to Indian people.
I get being uncomfortable with "made in India" related to the exploitation of the Indian people.

But I think any country and its people can make something to a good enough standard, if they are given the equipment and the training.

For instance, you might be better off with a rolex made in india... if you ever look up walter odets' teardown of a swiss rolex, you'll see that country of origin isn't necessarily a decisive factor in whether or not a product is well made.
 
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Who exactly in the US or Europe is going to work at these factories, are you going to work there? We can’t even staff restaurants or airports. The waiter at my favorite Indian restaurant was running it solo and asked our table if anyone wanted to earn a few extra bucks by working there for $17/hour! Rationally, why work hard serving tables when door dashing pays up to $25/hour and you can pick your hours? No one is going to assemble phones for $15/hour, you’re gonna have to pay at least $30 to get someone to sit there for 8hours a day doing that kind of repetitive work if you can find someone with the dedication and fine motor skills required. By contrast Foxconn assembly line workers are paid around $3.20/hour. That doesn’t mean a phone is going to cost 10x more since assembly is only part of the cost and there are other elements like the BOM, distribution, R&D, SG&A, but a 20+% increase seems like in the ballpark
Ir’s obvious you don’t know much about the cost of labor in Europe: try offering that kind of salary to Bulgarian, Hungarian, Romanian or even Portuguese citizens and you would be surprised with the number of factories that could be assembling these products on this side of the world. The Chinese Dream is over but no stakeholder or nvestor is prepared to deal with that reality
 
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