Apple's Spreadsheet Application: Lasso

[Hattig]

Not everyone agrees, do they? Many Mac "fanatics" prefer Word. This one prefers Pages.

I like Pages for small documents (<20 pages). It has very crisp text display and it is quite nippy in use. The exposed features are quite comprehensive in a single-user environment and the application is quite fun to use. I have yet to try Mellel's word processor however, that is meant to be very good.

It certainly doesn't have the quirks of Word, but it has its own quirks that can be very annoying. For example it wants to be Page Oriented, but then acts like a word processor within each Page, allowing you to have multi-page Pages (that the page template doesn't apply to). WTF?! I admit I didn't get iWork 2006, the upgrades didn't seem worthwhile. Hopefully iWork 2007 will be more tempting.

OpenOffice.org and NeoOffice/J are slow clunky embarrassments to open source. AbiWord, Gnumeric, etc, are far nippier (although the former is barely a word processor).

KeyNote is, of course, awesome. However there needs to be a KeyNote viewer application for Windows (and Mac), PowerPoint export isn't ideal, and QuickTime is a bulky tradeoff.

 

[Max on Macs]

iWork updates are always welcome in my book, but I'm not sure "Lasso" will ever be as successful as Pages or Keynote. With programs like Pages or Keynote, you don't need guaranteed interoperability, but with Excel it's different. With Excel, you are less likely to distribute it in printed form or orally in a presentation, rather you would distribute it electronically. Plus, when it comes to numbers, there is no room for error.

Excel truly is the standard in this case (actually doing a good job), and it will be very hard to convince users to switch.

.

You should note however that the Excel format is very simple to save/load and there really isn't much room for error in loading/saving Excel formatted documents. This is not the case with Word and PowerPoint, hence the sometimes inaccurate conversions.

 

[clintob]

(1) In regards to Excel, the program has become the industry standard kind of by default more than anything. If you look back through it's "history", Excel really hasn't changed much since the beginning. Sure, the interface is better, and the introduced more comprehensive Macros and other crap that just makes it confusing for most users, but the structure and base features are exactly the same. Frankly, the only features that are worrysome when sending Excel documents via email are the Macros, and those don't even work properly from computer to computer, let alone across different programs (ie. Excel to "Lasso"). So, long story short, I'm very excited to see what Apple comes up with and really don't think interoperability will be an issue at all.

(2) In regards to Pages, and the complaints I've seen on here about it, let's not forget that in the world of software, iWork is a BABY. MS Office has been around forever, whereas Pages is only a few years old. And frankly, it already works light years better than Word could ever dream to. If you've ever attempting to do anything in Word other than type, you know it is so chock full of bugs and quirks that by the end of your project you'd rather write it out free hand.

So bring on Lasso, and Pages '07. I can not WAIT to delete office from my Mac and be done with everything that has that dirty M-word on it forever.

That is all.

 

[IJ Reilly]

I like Pages for small documents (<20 pages). It has very crisp text display and it is quite nippy in use. The exposed features are quite comprehensive in a single-user environment and the application is quite fun to use. I have yet to try Mellel's word processor however, that is meant to be very good.

It certainly doesn't have the quirks of Word, but it has its own quirks that can be very annoying. For example it wants to be Page Oriented, but then acts like a word processor within each Page, allowing you to have multi-page Pages (that the page template doesn't apply to). WTF?! I admit I didn't get iWork 2006, the upgrades didn't seem worthwhile. Hopefully iWork 2007 will be more tempting.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. If you start with a blank page, Pages works just like any other word processor. Mellel takes a very interesting approach. I spent some time with it in an earlier version but decided to move to Pages when it came out. Unfortunately, anything that doesn't look and act just like Word is not going to be an acceptable alternative for many people.

 

[Thomas2006]

I can understand people's impatience with Apple for not having a complete AppleWorks replacement already, but if you look at their long term plans for iWork it makes perfect sense. If you start out with a solid foundation it is easier to make improvements so follow my thinking:

"iWork '03"
Keynote 1

iWork '05
Keynote 2 - improvements
Pages 1 - introduced and is a cross between a word processor and a page layout program. Handles the basics of both well but lacks "pro" features

iWork '06
Keynote 3 - improvements
Pages 2 - gets table cell formulas, sorting, number formatting (preparation for spreadsheet app), comments (colaboration), thumbnail view (page finding, ordering, deleting), address book support (mail merge), endnotes, automatic text correction, and general improvements to features already there.

iWork '07
Keynote 4 - improvements
Pages 3 - gets modes which separates word processing tasks/items from page layout tasks/items (reduced clutter), ability to create custom formulas.
Spreadsheet 1 - can import/read Excel data, save as/export to Excel file, basic reporting, there will be a way supply the charts in Keynote and Pages with data, plus whatever Apple adds

iWork '08
Keynote 5 - improvements
Pages 4 - word processing and page layout tasks are improved to the point where they are looking like two separate apps
Spreadsheet 2 - general improvements, reporting feature gets most improvement by being able to "drill" down through pie charts.

iWork '09
Keynote 6 - improvements
Pages 5 - improved to the point where it is only a word processor now.
Page Layout 1 - "New" app that has broken away from Pages and is now the "iApp" of DTPs. This could happen in iWork '08.
Spreadsheet 3 - Gets ODBC support
Database 1 - most likely SQLite, or equivalent, with a sweet front-end. Hopefully, it will be a true RDBMS and not something like what came with AppleWorks.
Reports 1 - (ie Crystal Reports) This is a stretch but if not a separate app then more of an "engine" that is used by the spreadsheet and database apps.

I do not use Keynote which is why I only entered "improvements" next to it.

 

[BenRoethig]

I can understand people's impatience with Apple for not having a complete AppleWorks replacement already, but if you look at their long term plans for iWork it makes perfect sense. If you start out with a solid foundation it is easier to make improvements so follow my thinking:

"iWork '03"
Keynote 1

iWork '05
Keynote 2 - improvements
Pages 1 - introduced and is a cross between a word processor and a page layout program. Handles the basics of both well but lacks "pro" features

iWork '06
Keynote 3 - improvements
Pages 2 - gets table cell formulas, sorting, number formatting (preparation for spreadsheet app), comments (colaboration), thumbnail view (page finding, ordering, deleting), address book support (mail merge), endnotes, automatic text correction, and general improvements to features already there.

iWork '07
Keynote 4 - improvements
Pages 3 - gets modes which separates word processing tasks/items from page layout tasks/items (reduced clutter), ability to create custom formulas.
Spreadsheet 1 - can import/read Excel data, save as/export to Excel file, basic reporting, there will be a way supply the charts in Keynote and Pages with data, plus whatever Apple adds

iWork '08
Keynote 5 - improvements
Pages 4 - word processing and page layout tasks are improved to the point where they are looking like two separate apps
Spreadsheet 2 - general improvements, reporting feature gets most improvement by being able to "drill" down through pie charts.

iWork '09
Keynote 6 - improvements
Pages 5 - improved to the point where it is only a word processor now.
Page Layout 1 - "New" app that has broken away from Pages and is now the "iApp" of DTPs. This could happen in iWork '08.
Spreadsheet 3 - Gets ODBC support
Database 1 - most likely SQLite, or equivalent, with a sweet front-end. Hopefully, it will be a true RDBMS and not something like what came with AppleWorks.
Reports 1 - (ie Crystal Reports) This is a stretch but if not a separate app then more of an "engine" that is used by the spreadsheet and database apps.

I do not use Keynote which is why I only entered "improvements" next to it.

I hope for Apple's sake it doesn't take until 2009 to get a database app. iWork '07 better be able to do everything Appleworks and MS Works can and like those application it better ship on consumer machines free of charge.

 

[clintob]

Why on Earth would you expect Apple to ship iWork with it's machines for free? iWork is not MS Works - it's already far superior, and it's still a baby. In one or two more revisions, iWork will be a better overall suite of Apps than Office (which frankly, isn't saying much). It's unreasonable to expect Apple to give that away for free.

 

[BenRoethig]

Why on Earth would you expect Apple to ship iWork with it's machines for free? iWork is not MS Works - it's already far superior, and it's still a baby. In one or two more revisions, iWork will be a better overall suite of Apps than Office (which frankly, isn't saying much). It's unreasonable to expect Apple to give that away for free.

I don't know maybe because prior to January every consumer machine shipped since about 1990 has come with a consumer productivity suite and maybe I don't apple to lose sales because of sure stupidity. And yes iWork is like MS works. It is not an office suite, it was never meant to be, and it never will be one. It is the replacement for Appleworks. Hence the name iWork instead of Work Pro. Apple is smart enough to realize that it can't beat Microsoft in the office environment.

 

[IJ Reilly]

Why on Earth would you expect Apple to ship iWork with it's machines for free? iWork is not MS Works - it's already far superior, and it's still a baby. In one or two more revisions, iWork will be a better overall suite of Apps than Office (which frankly, isn't saying much). It's unreasonable to expect Apple to give that away for free.

For the same reason the iLife suite is bundled with every Mac system -- to get people using them, and in the habit of buying the upgrades. I don't understand why Apple thinks this strategy works for iLife but not for iWork. Very short-sighted.

 

[clintob]

I don't know maybe because prior to January every consumer machine shipped since about 1990 has come with a consumer productivity suite and maybe I don't apple to lose sales because of sure stupidity. And yes iWork is like MS works. It is not an office suite, it was never meant to be, and it never will be one. It is the replacement for Appleworks. Hence the name iWork instead of Work Pro. Apple is smart enough to realize that it can't beat Microsoft in the office environment.

For the same reason the iLife suite is bundled with every Mac system -- to get people using them, and in the habit of buying the upgrades. I don't understand why Apple thinks this strategy works for iLife but not for iWork. Very short-sighted.

(1) Not even close to every machine ships with a productivity suite... in fact, if you look closely at what you're paying for when you buy most PC machines, those products that "ship standard" with your fancy new PC are built into the price. Most customizable online shops (Dell, et al.) allow you to remove that software and lower the price. So obviously, they are not free.

(2) iWork is undoubtably being groomed as a direct competitor to Office. There's no disputing that. It CURRENTLY is a replacement for AppleWorks, because it's still young and undeveloped in places, but it would be insane for Apple not to try and pursue part of the Office marketshare. It's an untapped resource, and frankly the Office programs are not very well constructed (with the exception of Excel). Outlook, Word, and PowerPoint are pretty lousy, and while Access is solid, it's certainly not leaps and bounds better than (PageMaker) <-- EDIT: Sorry, meant FileMaker.

(3) Bundling software, and then looking for profit on the backend with upgrades is a reasonable answer to the question. There's something to be said for that. But in the end, I think you're comparing Apples and Oranges. While at current, iWork is undeveloped, it is (as I said) being groomed to be a full suite of productivity Apps. iLife is a wonderful package of Apps, but they do not replace Pro Apps. iPhoto is garbage compared to Aperture or Photoshop. Pages is certainly not garbage compared to Word, and Keynote is already a much better App than PowerPoint. So I think there's a flaw in the argument here...

 

[IJ Reilly]

(1) Not even close to every machine ships with a productivity suite... in fact, if you look closely at what you're paying for when you buy most PC machines, those products that "ship standard" with your fancy new PC are built into the price. Most customizable online shops (Dell, et al.) allow you to remove that software and lower the price. So obviously, they are not free.

(2) iWork is undoubtably being groomed as a direct competitor to Office. There's no disputing that. It CURRENTLY is a replacement for AppleWorks, because it's still young and undeveloped in places, but it would be insane for Apple not to try and pursue part of the Office marketshare. It's an untapped resource, and frankly the Office programs are not very well constructed (with the exception of Excel). Outlook, Word, and PowerPoint are pretty lousy, and while Access is solid, it's certainly not leaps and bounds better than (PageMaker) <-- EDIT: Sorry, meant FileMaker.

(3) Bundling software, and then looking for profit on the backend with upgrades is a reasonable answer to the question. There's something to be said for that. But in the end, I think you're comparing Apples and Oranges. While at current, iWork is undeveloped, it is (as I said) being groomed to be a full suite of productivity Apps. iLife is a wonderful package of Apps, but they do not replace Pro Apps. iPhoto is garbage compared to Aperture or Photoshop. Pages is certainly not garbage compared to Word, and Keynote is already a much better App than PowerPoint. So I think there's a flaw in the argument here...

This impresses me as distinctions without much a difference. The iLife suite now consists of several well-developed applications all of which are bundled. They didn't necessarily start out mature but they grew into maturity. (iPhoto was never conceived as a replacement for Photoshop btw.) Apple got Mac users accustomed to using them and can now successfully charge for upgrades. They could do the same with iWork.

 

[skunk]

I agree that they'd be better off bundling iWork while it only consists of Pages and Keynote, as a taster for the eventual suite-scale upgrade. I have absolutely no use for Keynote anyway, so as far as I'm concerned, the money is just for Pages, which is not much of a sweetener compared with the Educational version of Office.

 

[IJ Reilly]

I agree that they'd be better off bundling iWork while it only consists of Pages and Keynote, as a taster for the eventual suite-scale upgrade. I have absolutely no use for Keynote anyway, so as far as I'm concerned, the money is just for Pages, which is not much of a sweetener compared with the Educational version of Office.

No use for Keynote? I find that doing bullet-point presentations on what I would prefer for dinner is a very effective way of going hungry.

 

[skunk]

No use for Keynote? I find that doing bullet-point presentations on what I would prefer for dinner is a very effective way of going hungry.

Wow, I hadn't thought of that! The Keynote Diet Plan. Reverse psychology is so effective.

 

[BenRoethig]

(1) Not even close to every machine ships with a productivity suite... in fact, if you look closely at what you're paying for when you buy most PC machines, those products that "ship standard" with your fancy new PC are built into the price. Most customizable online shops (Dell, et al.) allow you to remove that software and lower the price. So obviously, they are not free.

(2) iWork is undoubtably being groomed as a direct competitor to Office. There's no disputing that. It CURRENTLY is a replacement for AppleWorks, because it's still young and undeveloped in places, but it would be insane for Apple not to try and pursue part of the Office marketshare. It's an untapped resource, and frankly the Office programs are not very well constructed (with the exception of Excel). Outlook, Word, and PowerPoint are pretty lousy, and while Access is solid, it's certainly not leaps and bounds better than (PageMaker) <-- EDIT: Sorry, meant FileMaker.

(3) Bundling software, and then looking for profit on the backend with upgrades is a reasonable answer to the question. There's something to be said for that. But in the end, I think you're comparing Apples and Oranges. While at current, iWork is undeveloped, it is (as I said) being groomed to be a full suite of productivity Apps. iLife is a wonderful package of Apps, but they do not replace Pro Apps. iPhoto is garbage compared to Aperture or Photoshop. Pages is certainly not garbage compared to Word, and Keynote is already a much better App than PowerPoint. So I think there's a flaw in the argument here...

The only ones who even remotely have iWork tagged as an office competitor are those hardcore mac users despise anything that doesn't have the Apple logo on it. It is a consumer application. If iWork is not shipped with every Mac, nine times out of ten they're going to buy some version of office because that's the standard that everyone knows. I used Claris then Appleworks until it got too far behind pretty much because it came with my Mac.

I agree that they'd be better off bundling iWork while it only consists of Pages and Keynote, as a taster for the eventual suite-scale upgrade. I have absolutely no use for Keynote anyway, so as far as I'm concerned, the money is just for Pages, which is not much of a sweetener compared with the Educational version of Office.

For those in an Office or College setting, there isn't going to be much defending against Office student and teacher. Most computer tasks are built around office. Add in the option of a more familiar interface option for word processing and light duty spreadsheet and database apps, iWork and the Mac would have a lot going for it over PCs with MS Works.

 

[IJ Reilly]

The only ones who even remotely have iWork tagged as an office competitor are those hardcore mac users despise anything that doesn't have the Apple logo on it. It is a consumer application. If iWork is not shipped with every Mac, nine times out of ten they're going to buy some version of office because that's the standard that everyone knows. I used Claris then Appleworks until it got too far behind pretty much because it came with my Mac.

Nonsense. Pages is perfectly capable of serving as a everyday word processor outside of "consumer" environment, and Keynote whacks the poop out of PowerPoint for presentations.

 

[BenRoethig]

Nonsense. Pages is perfectly capable of serving as a everyday word processor outside of "consumer" environment, and Keynote whacks the poop out of PowerPoint for presentations.

And if you need to use those pages or keynote projects at work or in school?

 

[pyramid6]

And if you need to use those pages or keynote projects at work or in school?

Exactly. I hate Office. It's bloated and 90% of it's features are wasted on me, but everyone uses it.

 

[gauchogolfer]

And if you need to use those pages or keynote projects at work or in school?

I used Keynote in school and currently use it at work, giving scientific presentations on a monthly basis at the least. There is not a huge need for it to be interoperable with PPT for me, although I can import what I need from colleagues and make it look much nicer in my Keynote talk. From what I've seen, Office needs to become interoperable within itself before people whine too much about compatibility between iWork and Office.

 

[heisetax]

iWork updates are always welcome in my book, but I'm not sure "Lasso" will ever be as successful as Pages or Keynote. With programs like Pages or Keynote, you don't need guaranteed interoperability, but with Excel it's different. With Excel, you are less likely to distribute it in printed form or orally in a presentation, rather you would distribute it electronically. Plus, when it comes to numbers, there is no room for error.

Excel truly is the standard in this case (actually doing a good job), and it will be very hard to convince users to switch.

.

That's why nobody has succeeded to replace Excel in over 22 years of trying. That last word is something that hasn't always happened, trying. I use Excel to write my Income Tax Prep Program. So far only Excel will work for me.

Bill the TaxMan

 

[IJ Reilly]

And if you need to use those pages or keynote projects at work or in school?

Define "need to use." I use Pages for all of my reports, and output to PDF for presentation to my clients. If they need a Word version, I export it as Word. Never had a single complaint. I present in Keynote quite often, sometimes saving the slides in PDF form. Never had a complaint there either; in fact the Keynote presentations in particular get rave reviews.

I don't get why people manufacture so many impediments that don't exist to using something other than MS Office. I would loathe the thought of being chained to MS Office, or anything else for that matter, for the rest of my life.

 

[jsalzer]

Laptops

And if you need to use those Pages or Keynote projects at work or in school?

Easiest question I've answered all day. Use a laptop.

DVI to VGA converter - and you can now use Keynote anywhere. Airport, and you can print your Pages doc anywhere.

Then you have a Mac and iWork wherever you go - despite the OS preference of your work or school.



For those talking about "collaboration tools" - I never have understood the fascination (possibly from lack of my own knowledge). In the school arena, we all know that one person in the group ends up writing the paper or putting together the slideshow. Let's face it - the rest of the group just mooches.

And, if my lonely Mac and I want to collaborate something that I wrote with rest of my Windows-crippled office, they get a PDF. They can either send me general comments or print out a copy and mark it up. It keeps others from mucking with my originals.

Not that I'm paranoid about other people touching my documents.

 

[ddrueckhammer]

Define "need to use." I use Pages for all of my reports, and output to PDF for presentation to my clients. If they need a Word version, I export it as Word. Never had a single complaint. I present in Keynote quite often, sometimes saving the slides in PDF form. Never had a complaint there either; in fact the Keynote presentations in particular get rave reviews.

I don't get why people manufacture so many impediments that don't exist to using something other than MS Office. I would loathe the thought of being chained to MS Office, or anything else for that matter, for the rest of my life.

Exactly, I use Pages and Keynote at School for my Engineering classes all of the time. I never have any problems but if there were a problem then I would save the document in .PDF in Pages or Keynote or possibly as a quicktime movie in Keynote. I just don't get what problems besides missing font problems people have I guess....

That does remind me that Pages needs an equation editor though. I have been using MathType to copy and paste equations into Pages or Omnigraffle if I am doing a schematic and would like an equation editor in both of those programs. Omnigraffle could use better dimensioning tools before it will be a full Visio replacement too.

 

[brsboarder]

atleast its competition

 

[jose fuertes s.]

Pages needs an urgent update 'cause when you are working with more than 29 pages, including hi resolution photographs...is so damn slow!