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You sound like David Lereah formerly head of the National Association of Realtors in 2006 and Lawrence Yun also head of NAR, currently. It is all the media's fault man! I guess it's time to write a put option on AAPL with expiration ~12/2012?

Cinch

I almost pulled out the comparison to the real estate bubble. Because the entire media did nothing but hype how the real estate prices were going up up up until the stall came, then they all changed their tune. The big difference is that real estate prices went up artificially. People were borrowing money that they could not repay to buy houses that they could not afford and mortgage brokers were doing the loans because they made a commission. I saw that bubble bursting a good three years before it came. The clear sign is when everybody and their mother is buying an investment house, then the next question is "who are you going to sell to when everybody is a seller?".

Apple makes money off selling quality products on regular upgrade cycles. They are not relying on the ability to "flip an investment". Apple's turn will occur when the industry turns. When smartphones and tablets are no longer popular buys and something else comes along to replace them. Apple will only do well in that scenario if they invent the thing that replaces them. So this is why I think the media sounds like a bunch of morons. They are all trying to predict the bursting of this bubble with no decent insight into what would cause that. They are doing nothing more than looking at short term up & down trends and pretending for a moment that those normal cycles don't ebb and flow but instead whatever current downturn they witness is going to extend out for years. Its like predicting it will always be bright outside at 9am in the morning because the sun rose at 6:30am.

I stand by what I said, all evidence points to AAPL going up and that they are undervalued. Apple has not been a media darling for quite some time. Everybody wants to be the first to predict their fall since predicting their rise has gotten to be old news. This does not mean the stock will go up in the short term, but I'd bet that Apple is still going to make a load of cash over the next two to three years.
 
The market share that Apple doesn't own are all the feature phones out there, both in the developed countries and in the developing countries. Over time, these will be converted to smart phones. As I see it, Apple can ride iPhone and iPad for another 2-3 years minimum of strong growth. Large share still to be gained in a growing market. The Mac still has huge share that it can gain, albeit in a mature market. After that, they'll need something else to maintain their momentum in revenue growth (iTV?).

As far as valuation, you've neglected the significant long term investment line on Apple's balance sheet ($67M). That would be akin to ignoring Berkshire Hathaway's significant holdings in KO, AXP, PG, etc. when valuing that company.

If they have gold toilets, those need to be valued appropriately also, since such things can readily be turned into cash :).

2) Apple has 932 million shares outstanding, and Google and Amazon both have about a third of that. Apple also does about three times Amazon's and Google's revenue. Given the rapid growth Apple has had, what do you think is happening to their available pool of customer market share that they don't already own, which to go after? It's shrinking. As Apple scales up, there's greater downside risk. And now they're the most valuable company in the world, with the highest growth in PC sales, the #1 smartphone manufacturer.

The tangible book value of Apple is about $18.25 a share, by net working capital (a metric Buffett has used repeatedly, and it seems to have worked out rather well for him). I don't count property, plant and equipment because it doesn't matter how big your offices are or how many gold toilets you have... the cash generating engine of a manufacturer like Apple rests in its inventory, and the generated cash is operating cash flows, not total cash flows, and certainly not total earnings (an income statement item that doesn't actually tick and tie to every widget sold).
 
Fulfill Steve's vision, what else needs to be said.

Computers are the bicycles of the brain.
 
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Apple has not been a media darling for quite some time.

Are you kidding me? Don't be daff. This is like saying, Christians in this country are mercilessly persecuted! If I have to guess, half of all journalists in this country write on a Mac. Apple continues to be rated as one of the best company to work for.

As I was saying in my previous post, Apple success in the past decade was in large part due to the failure of their competitors such as Dell and RIM. Your optimism of AAPL valuation assumes that the economy does well. I think Apple is so big now that macro economic conditions will effect the stock performance. As an aside, no company has ever achieved a market cap. over over a half a trillion and stay there for any measurable length of time.
 
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OK, so who else busted out a calculator to see how much AAPL made you just in January?
 
Yep...

I remember when it first broke $300, my buddy (who worked for Reuters, helping implement their stock tracking applications, no less!) cautioned me against buying Apple stock. He was concerned that as good a stock as it was, it may have peaked, and was quickly becoming too big a risk to buy for people like me with only a "middle class income" at best.

Since then, it seems like I've commented at least 3 times on how "It *still* might be a good time to buy a little bit of Apple stock." since all it's really done is go up, ever since then.

Of course, now, at around $450 a share, it really IS getting priced outside the range of feasibility for me. (When a single share is bigger than one of your car payments, it gives you pause....)

One of these days, it's going to peak ... but considering everything? If I had to guess, I'd say that day won't come until Apple runs through the pipeline of "future product concepts" Steve Jobs left behind for them. After that, he leaves less of an imprint on the company's direction and the roadmap gets turned over to Tim Cook. At that point, sure - they *could* still be really successful, but the level of risk is higher. Jobs had a proven track record of selecting successful products to bring to production. Tim Cook is an unknown, except for his ability to follow the roadmap Jobs left behind for him, so far.


I saw this stock around $360-$370 just a few months ago, but I don't really have the money to make it worth my while.

Way to go Apple.
 
When they start paying dividends it will drop. Dividends take cash out of the equation, naturally resulting in a lower valuation; if Apple pays out 10 bn in dividends, cap drops 10bn. Simple as that.

Not in the least. Cash on a company's books is not calculated into any method of valuing that company's shares and most certainly market cap does not include cash (or debt). If Apple offered a dividend the shares would rise on this news because this provides new value to investors that they would not see any other way. It would also bring in more institutional investors who look for income in their portfolios. A win-win for investors.
 
Are you kidding me? Don't be daff. This is like saying, Christians in this country are mercilessly persecuted! If I have to guess, half of all journalists in this country write on a Mac. Apple continues to be rated as one of the best company to work for.

As I was saying in my previous post, Apple success in the past decade was in large part due to the failure of their competitors such as Dell and RIM. Your optimism of AAPL valuation assumes that the economy does well. I think Apple is so big now that macro economic conditions will effect the stock performance. As an aside, no company has ever achieved a market cap. over over a half a trillion and stay there for any measurable length of time.

Every stock is sensitive to macroeconomic conditions. And your claim that no company has maintained a half-trillion dollar valuation for a long time is based on companies that were massively overvalued. Apple trades at 12x earnings. Companies like Cisco got to a half-trillion valuation but they were trading at much higher earnings multiples.

Apple has gotten big, but they have the profits to back it up.
 
The market share that Apple doesn't own are all the feature phones out there, both in the developed countries and in the developing countries. Over time, these will be converted to smart phones. As I see it, Apple can ride iPhone and iPad for another 2-3 years minimum of strong growth. Large share still to be gained in a growing market. The Mac still has huge share that it can gain, albeit in a mature market. After that, they'll need something else to maintain their momentum in revenue growth (iTV?).

But you can't maintain that momentum in revenue growth. It's simple as to why:

a) The global market for your existing (time tested) products narrows, as does the available share of wallet... customers have finite disposable income to spend on your products. If you've got 12% share of wallet, competing with everything else the customer can afford to buy in a given month, quarter, year, etc., that puts a cap on how much growth you can squeeze from existing AND new customers.

b) As you scale, 36% requires larger and larger revenue figures every year. That's not a consistently do-able feat when you get to the scale of a Berkshire or Apple, and Berkshire's own guidance has reinforced that.

As far as valuation, you've neglected the significant long term investment line on Apple's balance sheet ($67M). That would be akin to ignoring Berkshire Hathaway's significant holdings in KO, AXP, PG, etc. when valuing that company.

If they have gold toilets, those need to be valued appropriately also, since such things can readily be turned into cash :).

Ah, but Berkshire Hathaway Intl. is a holding company. There's no other way to measure them but by the growth of their investments. For the record, it should be noted that their 22% year over year growth is not a growth in market price of their investments. Every annual letter they have published since 1964, GAAP accounting aside, looks strictly at the growth in tangible book value of their investments.

Their own investment logic for manufacturing is to assess those operations by the engine that generates operating cash, and the operating cash generated.

The cash generated from investments is a different bucket on the balance sheet, and would only be counted if you were counting book value as total assets minus total liabilities, less intangibles.

Berkshire has achieved its massive compounded growth in book value by seeking out companies trading at a fraction of their net working capital, NOT their net total assets.

So far, in just the past year alone, the issues that I picked up at a fraction of working capital have netted me from 17 to 40% in unrealized gains (I don't turn over positions frequently, no need), whereas issues I picked up at multiples of book value have been losers more often than not. So I'm pretty confident in my valuation method (which, again, is the same method Buffett uses to acquire entire companies).

You could evaluate Apple another way and count all the gold toilets, but why would you? Short term gains can often be realized to offset changes in working capital and declines in operating income... That doesn't tell me what kind of a business you're running or what kind of organic growth you're generating.

And if you value all the gold toilets, and I don't, and I wait to pick up Apple at a price below my valuation (which I did), then which one of us is going to have a bigger return, all else being equal? Why would you pay more for the same asset if you can pay less?

:)
 
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The cash generated from investments is a different bucket on the balance sheet, and would only be counted if you were counting book value as total assets minus total liabilities, less intangibles.

Excellent comments on a whole, but I have to question this one. A separate line on the balance sheet yes, but investment income is counted in earnings in the end and reported as such.

Not that Apple should stockpile cash and investments as a way of building earnings. Ideally free cash goes towards expanding a company's core business. We don't want to see our favorite tech company turn into a bank or a huge portfolio manager if only because they cannot be expected to generate a ROI on those types of investments rivaling those they could obtain through the business where they have real expertise.

Failing the ability to spend their free cash on expanding their business (and at this point I think it is abundantly clear that Apple cannot) then some of that excess should be paid out to the stockholders. It's high time.
 
Excellent comments on a whole, but I have to question this one. A separate line on the balance sheet yes, but investment income is counted in earnings in the end and reported as such.

First let me correct myself.... it's a separate item on the cash flow statement, not the balance sheet. Now let me clarify: My point here is that from an operations stand point, it is not operating income, and it's not part of operating cash flows, and it's not income generated by changes in working capital (inventory). So, from my point of view I'm excluding it because it doesn't tick and tie with what I'm evaluating, which is the company's ability to generate continued business.

Earnings is a number that can be manipulated by many non-operating activities, and cleverly timed changes in investing and financing activities... I look strictly at operating cash flows as a measure of the business, because Apple, Pepsi and Company XYZ could all identical returns if invested in the same financial instruments. But even if Apple and its competitors had the same inventory amounts, what separates them is what they do that is uniquely Apple, or uniquely Dell, or uniquely Pepsi... which reflects the output of the two less tangible categories of my typical analysis: competitive moat and soundness of management.

Not that Apple should stockpile cash and investments as a way of building earnings.

Of course not. They don't do this exceptionally well as evidenced by their overall return. By "exceptionally" I mean that it's a nice ancillary return but they're not particularly better at it than companies who specialize in private equity or fund management. They're much better at turning computing devices into cash.

Ideally free cash goes towards expanding a company's core business. We don't want to see our favorite tech company turn into a bank or a huge portfolio manager if only because they cannot be expected to generate a ROI on those types of investments rivaling those they could obtain through the business where they have real expertise.

Failing the ability to spend their free cash on expanding their business (and at this point I think it is abundantly clear that Apple cannot) then some of that excess should be paid out to the stockholders. It's high time.

That's a different debate... but I don't agree with it because I've pointed out that having that cushion gives them a tremendous advantage in numerous areas, including but not limited to:

Insurance against operating income fluctuations due to economic conditions, coverage against litigation settlements/patent disputes, ability to demand special pricing agreements on both supply chain as well as investment instruments, insulation against loss of principal (every dollar lost is a dollar plus interest in future value sacrificed, depletion of principal would slow their growth during certain periods), insulation against future changes in cost of capital, etc. Consider that for the $67 billion in long term securities they have, they are generating a steady stream of investment income. It's THAT stream I'd draw from for organic growth, rather than go for depletion of principal. As principal grows, so does their cushion AND their total investment income.

What bothers me about the arguments that Apple should spend it as if it's burning a hole in their pocket is it reminds me of the tendency to think "Hey wow, I got a big bonus, I should run out and get a big TV." Why? What's that TV going to do to increase the stability of your household that the same amount of money can do just sitting there earning a return?

Apple has to also look at how much of that remaining pool they can possibly acquire and manage within a given timeframe. Companies that try to grow too fast suffer from two problems: Their quality of products and service declines if they can't scale operations at the same rate they scale sales. Sales is just a numbers game (throw crap to the wall and see what sticks) but customer retention is not. Think about the hiring, training, facilities management, etc. that all goes into handling what to do with a customer once you have them. They're depleting the available pool. If they grab a ton of customers this month, they've removed those customers from next month's pool... I'm not going to buy a laptop twice in two months. They're not hurting for operating income, so it's pretty wise to pace their growth while other companies crush themselves trying to be the Wal-Mart of computing.

If Apple were very poor at generating operating cash flow (and consistently so), then I would prefer dividend distribution because I would have a better idea what to do with that money than they would. But if they're smart within their core competency, just as Buffett and Munger are with Berkshire, I would rather they keep that money as added float to insulate them against various types of risk and accelerate their growth relative to their peers whose leveraged growth will always hobble their operational returns and expose them to risk unnecessarily.

But ultimately, again, what I'm not doing is trying to replicate the equivalent of what they report under GAAP requirements. I'm trying to arrive at a price I think is a sensible purchase limit, and then get in with a margin of safety (i.e. some price beneath what my estimate of their operating value is).

Compared to using market price, P/E multiples and other metrics that are all skewed to inflate performance and value, I think it's the sensible approach to evaluating a business... It doesn't matter what I think they'll eventually go to. That's highly speculative unless you're inside the company and know all the inputs to sales forecasts (which is basically what I do for my employer).

I basically find a price I think reflects the true operating value, buy at some price beneath that, and wait until the market is dumb enough to overprice it. That's basically all that Buffett, Munger, Eviellard, Schloss, Perlmeter and others have done, and kept doing again and again, that made them billionaires over time. I cannot name a single speculator/day trader who became a billionaire and (most importantly) stayed one.

If you keep buying a dollar worth of assets for sixty cents, you'll do very well in life.
 
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But you can't maintain that momentum in revenue growth. It's simple as to why:

a) The global market for your existing (time tested) products narrows, as does the available share of wallet... customers have finite disposable income to spend on your products. If you've got 12% share of wallet, competing with everything else the customer can afford to buy in a given month, quarter, year, etc., that puts a cap on how much growth you can squeeze from existing AND new customers.
This would be true if Apple kept making the same products. You've sort of seen this with the iPod. However, they keep innovating with new products, which wind up with ever-fattening portions of their revenues. You could have made the same argument against going long AAPL at any point in the past 5 or so years, and yet growth continues, and in some cases, is accelerating. Apple's market in "Greater China" is still quite nascent, and so there is still enormous potential for growth, even if they don't develop new must-have products. And they are essentially PRINTING money, in terms of the growth of their cash horde, which is nearing $100 per share. Gold toilets are one thing. Actual gold is another.
 
That's a different debate... but I don't agree with it because I've pointed out that having that cushion gives them a tremendous advantage in numerous areas, including but not limited to:

The entire cushion argument scares the willies out of this longtime AAPL investor. If we want to see our portfolio plummet, Apple dipping into its "cushion" to fund operations is just the ticket. Consider what this implies. It implies their huge current free cash generation rate dropping to... almost nothing. Now, this would be a disaster with a capital D. The other scary scenario is Apple deciding that this money just has to be spent somewhere. Poorly considered mergers and acquisitions (read: almost all of them) come to mind.

The plain facts are that Apple could declare a very healthy dividend (2-3%, be still my heart) and still sock away billions more every quarter. It would be almost impossible for the cash mountain to not grow to well over $100b in this year, even if they went crazy (by Apple standards) and gave the stockholders $13-14b a year. So unless Apple is saving for its retirement I don't have any idea what continuing to grow that cash reserve is really supposed to do. It isn't an investment confidence builder, if you ask me. If anything, it has just the opposite affect.

If you keep buying a dollar worth of assets for sixty cents, you'll do very well in life

I like that. :)
 
This would be true if Apple kept making the same products. You've sort of seen this with the iPod. However, they keep innovating with new products, which wind up with ever-fattening portions of their revenues. You could have made the same argument against going long AAPL at any point in the past 5 or so years, and yet growth continues, and in some cases, is accelerating. Apple's market in "Greater China" is still quite nascent, and so there is still enormous potential for growth, even if they don't develop new must-have products. And they are essentially PRINTING money, in terms of the growth of their cash horde, which is nearing $100 per share. Gold toilets are one thing. Actual gold is another.

You're forgetting something. Revenue growth is revenue growth. As one product reaches the maturity of its cycle, replaced by another, and Apple is now generating around $130 billion in revenue, how much does its revenue have to keep growing each year to maintain the same revenue growth year over year. It's basic math... break out the calculator and do it over the next ten years. I'm not being facetious, either.

What I'm saying is that it's total speculation to think that five years from now they'll make a product that, at whatever their total revenue figure is at that time, will outpace the growth rate of the iPhone. Again, a very complicated feat since if they're at $130 billion this year, they'd have to grow by $46 billion over the next year and then by $63 billion the next and so on... all the while depending on a limited pool of customers whose remaining share of wallet to snag shrinks with each additional Apple product they keep replenishing (remember, they have to continue to do the SAME performance in all existing divisions AND grow a new product).

It's a far easier, and far less stressful feat to find a company that is temporarily undervalued at *present* relative to their working capital, wait until the market rebounds where value stocks advance much more than dogs, and then dispose of it for a greater return than the imbecile who paid several times working capital for the same stock. Rinse, repeat, compound returns over time... Again, Buffett and a whole cadre of value investors have seen their portfolios grow by the thousands of percent in 30 years time on this principle alone, applied with unwavering consistency.
 
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Not in the least. Cash on a company's books is not calculated into any method of valuing that company's shares and most certainly market cap does not include cash (or debt). If Apple offered a dividend the shares would rise on this news because this provides new value to investors that they would not see any other way. It would also bring in more institutional investors who look for income in their portfolios. A win-win for investors.

Cash in every company's book is in every way calculated* into the valuation of every company - just like outstanding debt is. If Apple pays out 100 bn, valuation drops 100bn, simply because there is 100 bn less to value. That said, yes - the market could react positively to Apple announcing that it'll start paying out annual dividends - but each time it does, the market cap. of the company will drop with an amount equivalent to the dividend. 100 bn out in dividend = 100 bn out in market cap. Simple as that (all else equal).

That said, if all you meant was that the market would react positively to Apple making an announcement that they would start paying out dividends, I'm on your side. Doesn't change the simple fact that the second dividends are paid out, the stock drops with the amount equivalent to the sum of the dividend payment. Money has to come out of somewhere.
 
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