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AppleWorks X?
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CalcioG4 said:
Appleworks 6.2.9 is native. Granted it isn't Cocoa, and doesn't support the scrollwheel mouse, but it does run in Mac OS X without needing to load Classic.
Nisus Writer Express
Yes, it would be nice if Apple came out with a quality Office suite. The current AppleWorks just looks too old. But there are some nice 3rd party apps.
I dumped Word last year and have never looked back. Currently, I'm using Nisus http://www.nisus.com/Express/ which is written in Cocoa and I'm quite happy with it. Best feature: no stupid animated computer!!!
Yes, it would be nice if Apple came out with a quality Office suite. The current AppleWorks just looks too old. But there are some nice 3rd party apps.
I dumped Word last year and have never looked back. Currently, I'm using Nisus http://www.nisus.com/Express/ which is written in Cocoa and I'm quite happy with it. Best feature: no stupid animated computer!!!
As a iMac G5 switcher , all I want is to acess a few thousand legacy Word and Powerpoint files (office 2000 and older vintage)- able to email, print and modify.
Don't care about DTP (although used it circa 87), as lots publishers like to format text/images themselves.
Utterly want to avoid paying any more M$ tax, as much as avoid using their buggy amateur software.
OpenOffice is functionable-ish, clunky, yet not quite there...
I'd buy a "works" level Apple suite (without the bugs and wizards) in an instant.
, all I want is to acess a few thousand legacy Word and Powerpoint files (office 2000 and older vintage)- able to email, print and modify. Don't care about DTP (although used it circa 87), as lots publishers like to format text/images themselves.
Utterly want to avoid paying any more M$ tax
, as much as avoid using their buggy amateur software.OpenOffice is functionable-ish, clunky, yet not quite there...
I'd buy a "works" level Apple suite (without the bugs and wizards) in an instant.
RealDeal:
For Word files, have you tried TextEdit? It came on your Mac. It's not perfect, but it lets me view most Word files reasonably well...
And there's Keynote for the PP stuff. I don't work with either one, but I do remember that Keynote was supposed to import PP files...
Good luck!
For Word files, have you tried TextEdit? It came on your Mac. It's not perfect, but it lets me view most Word files reasonably well...
And there's Keynote for the PP stuff. I don't work with either one, but I do remember that Keynote was supposed to import PP files...
Good luck!
iWork
I completely agree with this post below, that the "Draw" component and frames is the most natural basis for a "work" application. After all, when you use paper, you can write text on it, draw a picture, make a table, use it to make a presentation, stick on a photo etc. I am not a programmer or anything like that so may be there are good reasons but why doesn't software today emulate this ease of use? I can understand that this was not possible in the past but with today's OSX technologies, isn't the distinction between spreadsheet, document, presentation and drawing very artifical and a legacy of unweildy code and dubious Msoft practice? Shouldn't it be possible to just have a blank "canvas" and put anything you like on it but still have access to ALL the tools you are used to from a "full" application? Sorry if this is way off base or already obvious but its the kind of thing I want from my apps.
The ideal application for me would be one where you start with a blank canvas onto which you can place any number of objects. So like now you can make a text box or table but also access iphoto or imovie and place photos and video, or address book to add an address for letters etc. Each object or box could be moved, resized, layered, exported, etc as you wish.
The difference to now would be that each type of box would bring up the full menu controls, NOT a compromised version. So when you are making a table, an excel-like pallete of all tools would pop up. Same for text of course but also for photos, movies etc. I.e. there are no more separate applications because the tools are already part of OSX. So you access text services within OSX, same for photos and movies (quicktime libraries), addresses (from address book), spreadsheet functions (from newly added tabulation services).
In a sense, iWork for me would be like Keynote but for ANY purpose. I.e Apple would apply the freedom and simplicity of Keynote to allow creation of any kind of document. It would provide all the core tools of Word, Excel, Indesign, Freeway Pro, Photoshop Elements, Filemaker, Omnigraffle, the PIM functions of Address Book, Ical and Mail. Sounds like asking alot? Maybe but most of the basic tools of these apps are already in OSX or available to Apple.
The objects could be shifted around on the canvas just like in Keynote - i.e. alignment markers, size shifting automatically (with text also adjusting to scale as the box itself is resized) etc. Like iDVD you would be able to choose backgrounds for the canvas.
Such an approach wouldn't preclude just typing a note of course. A simple right click on the canvas when it first opens would give you the option to create a full size text box for the entire page, and equally a spreadsheet, keynote page etc, depending on what you wanted to do. There would be templates too so you can quickly make up a multi media brochure that includes complex text, a slide show of pictures, a video clip, a database of products and even a table showing the total cost of the products. May be you could even have a cubed brochure where instead of turning the page, you turn the cube as with the multi-user effect in OSX.
Overall, though what this would mean is that the artifical barriers set up by excel and word would disappear. No more "linking" of tables to speadsheets, weird and buggy graphic placement etc. The canvas would be able to call on all and any tools needed in their entirety using palettes etc. Since these tools would all be OSX services, they could of course be used in any way with anything.
The canvas would have layers too and you would be able to layer onto any part of an existing box. So if you want to have some complex text layout within a spreadsheet, you just place it there with options to wrap it too of course (no more struggles with awkward excel text boxes and columns). Same for photos - just place it on top of, within or behind a spreadsheet. Transparency options everywhere too.
Sound crowded? Why not adapt Expose to the canvas? This way you could zoom in on one of the objects/boxes to work on some detail and then click expose to select another box to work on or go back to full view.
The canvas could then be saved into any format you like depending on its content. If it is just text and tables etc you could save it as rtf, pdf or .doc. If its got video then as QT. The whole thing would also be exportable to html including any photos etc in just the same way that Freeway Pro works (all photos, pdfs, etc automatically resized and formatted to be web friendly and placed in a resource folder next to the html doc).
This would be linked to Automater in Tiger too. Since there are no application boundaries, you would be able to use the canvas to automate a whole range of tasks within the one app so doing away with applescript and macros.
In this way, iWorks would not be competing with Office. It would be something entirely different IMHO. It would be more of a digital content organizer than a document creator. It would assume that the content is going to be viewed digitally (but with the option to print) rather than like Office which assumes the content will be viewed on paper (but with buggy options to convert to digital). This is surely why Office feel like such a legacy app - it is just not designed for today's world of digital delivery and 20 inch screens that remove the need to print.
For me, Office has been a bridge between the analog world of writing and drawing with ink and the digital world of pixels. As such, it brings some of the convenience of the digital world but has to compromise to work in the analog world of print. iWorks would be the digital equivalent of paper and ink with all the freedom and ease of use that this implies BUT with all the power of digital tools, tools that already exist in OSX (text, quicktime etc) or readily available (Filemaker and some new spreadsheet tools).
It also occurs to me that such an app would be usable on an Apple equivalent of the OQO box, especially if you have the Expose function to zoom in and out with ease so getting rid of the current criticism of that machine that the text is too small too read. This machine would genuinely extend the digital document too, finally making the digital world fully portable.
Anyway, just my pennies worth.
A bit of a dream I guess but it would make my working day a whole lot more productive, fun and creative.
m
I completely agree with this post below, that the "Draw" component and frames is the most natural basis for a "work" application. After all, when you use paper, you can write text on it, draw a picture, make a table, use it to make a presentation, stick on a photo etc. I am not a programmer or anything like that so may be there are good reasons but why doesn't software today emulate this ease of use? I can understand that this was not possible in the past but with today's OSX technologies, isn't the distinction between spreadsheet, document, presentation and drawing very artifical and a legacy of unweildy code and dubious Msoft practice? Shouldn't it be possible to just have a blank "canvas" and put anything you like on it but still have access to ALL the tools you are used to from a "full" application? Sorry if this is way off base or already obvious but its the kind of thing I want from my apps.
The ideal application for me would be one where you start with a blank canvas onto which you can place any number of objects. So like now you can make a text box or table but also access iphoto or imovie and place photos and video, or address book to add an address for letters etc. Each object or box could be moved, resized, layered, exported, etc as you wish.
The difference to now would be that each type of box would bring up the full menu controls, NOT a compromised version. So when you are making a table, an excel-like pallete of all tools would pop up. Same for text of course but also for photos, movies etc. I.e. there are no more separate applications because the tools are already part of OSX. So you access text services within OSX, same for photos and movies (quicktime libraries), addresses (from address book), spreadsheet functions (from newly added tabulation services).
In a sense, iWork for me would be like Keynote but for ANY purpose. I.e Apple would apply the freedom and simplicity of Keynote to allow creation of any kind of document. It would provide all the core tools of Word, Excel, Indesign, Freeway Pro, Photoshop Elements, Filemaker, Omnigraffle, the PIM functions of Address Book, Ical and Mail. Sounds like asking alot? Maybe but most of the basic tools of these apps are already in OSX or available to Apple.
The objects could be shifted around on the canvas just like in Keynote - i.e. alignment markers, size shifting automatically (with text also adjusting to scale as the box itself is resized) etc. Like iDVD you would be able to choose backgrounds for the canvas.
Such an approach wouldn't preclude just typing a note of course. A simple right click on the canvas when it first opens would give you the option to create a full size text box for the entire page, and equally a spreadsheet, keynote page etc, depending on what you wanted to do. There would be templates too so you can quickly make up a multi media brochure that includes complex text, a slide show of pictures, a video clip, a database of products and even a table showing the total cost of the products. May be you could even have a cubed brochure where instead of turning the page, you turn the cube as with the multi-user effect in OSX.
Overall, though what this would mean is that the artifical barriers set up by excel and word would disappear. No more "linking" of tables to speadsheets, weird and buggy graphic placement etc. The canvas would be able to call on all and any tools needed in their entirety using palettes etc. Since these tools would all be OSX services, they could of course be used in any way with anything.
The canvas would have layers too and you would be able to layer onto any part of an existing box. So if you want to have some complex text layout within a spreadsheet, you just place it there with options to wrap it too of course (no more struggles with awkward excel text boxes and columns). Same for photos - just place it on top of, within or behind a spreadsheet. Transparency options everywhere too.
Sound crowded? Why not adapt Expose to the canvas? This way you could zoom in on one of the objects/boxes to work on some detail and then click expose to select another box to work on or go back to full view.
The canvas could then be saved into any format you like depending on its content. If it is just text and tables etc you could save it as rtf, pdf or .doc. If its got video then as QT. The whole thing would also be exportable to html including any photos etc in just the same way that Freeway Pro works (all photos, pdfs, etc automatically resized and formatted to be web friendly and placed in a resource folder next to the html doc).
This would be linked to Automater in Tiger too. Since there are no application boundaries, you would be able to use the canvas to automate a whole range of tasks within the one app so doing away with applescript and macros.
In this way, iWorks would not be competing with Office. It would be something entirely different IMHO. It would be more of a digital content organizer than a document creator. It would assume that the content is going to be viewed digitally (but with the option to print) rather than like Office which assumes the content will be viewed on paper (but with buggy options to convert to digital). This is surely why Office feel like such a legacy app - it is just not designed for today's world of digital delivery and 20 inch screens that remove the need to print.
For me, Office has been a bridge between the analog world of writing and drawing with ink and the digital world of pixels. As such, it brings some of the convenience of the digital world but has to compromise to work in the analog world of print. iWorks would be the digital equivalent of paper and ink with all the freedom and ease of use that this implies BUT with all the power of digital tools, tools that already exist in OSX (text, quicktime etc) or readily available (Filemaker and some new spreadsheet tools).
It also occurs to me that such an app would be usable on an Apple equivalent of the OQO box, especially if you have the Expose function to zoom in and out with ease so getting rid of the current criticism of that machine that the text is too small too read. This machine would genuinely extend the digital document too, finally making the digital world fully portable.
Anyway, just my pennies worth.
A bit of a dream I guess but it would make my working day a whole lot more productive, fun and creative.
m
jsalzer said:At the moment, I float pretty freely between MS Office and AW (on both the Mac and PC sitting right next to each other at work), so I'd like to think of myself as being fairly objective (if you ignore the Apple sticker on my bumper).
AW is generally the first tool that I grab. It's been an "app"endage to my body since CW2. It's simple to use. It's super reliable (well, except for some strange Windows issues in v4 and v5.) It just works. And it allows me to focus on the task at hand - not the application.
That said, I grab Word or Excel when the document I'm creating needs a feature not yet available in AW. For example - the ability to fill shapes with pictures by tiling or stretching (can someone tell me how on earth this feature has eluded Apple for so long?).
To not repeat things already said, I hope any new versions of AW keep in mind the following:
a) The "DRAW" component is the most natural environment for taking advantage of AW's "frames" genetic makeup (which needs to be kept, btw). MSWord will never replace AW to me. Despite its more advanced graphics, it's still a word processor that lets you clumsily dump things on top of it. Give AW's "Draw" opacity control, picture fills, and the ability to recognize non-rectangular pictures, and formatting rulers for text boxes, and noone will ever try to make a sign or a brochure in Word again.
b) Bring back Macros. When I bought AW 5 (since CW4 and Win98 weren't getting along), macros were gone. I called Apple to find out where they were (they were listed as a feature on Apple's web site), and I was told AW for Windows didn't have macros because macros were now Applescript based (and Windows didn't have Applescript). That's not a way to make a multi-platform application. I don't care if it's Applescript behind the scenes, but a Macro should be the same up front for everyone.
So, I guess what I want is:
1. Word processor that maintains AW's stability and reliability. If I delete the last letter of a word, I don't want that word's font and style changing on me (I can't believe MS can't fix that).
2. Draw - Start with what's there, as far as ease of frames and merging data, but add:
a) All the good stuff from Keynote - opacity, recognition of non-rectangular pics, snappy alignment, etc.
b) For multi-page draw documents, have an option for each page to have its own origin (rather than starting at ten and a fraction inches).
3. FileMaker Lite - a two-dim database as easy to use as the current that can merge data into all the other components.
4. Spreadsheet - just copy Excel.
5. Keynote - just add timer controls.
Make it fully cross-platform. And, for crying out loud, bring back the old tool bar. I don't need a huge colorful tool bar that prevents me from moving my window around. Put it back where it belongs and keep it simple and out of the way.
All this - and I will be one happy camper.
I was Framed!
McSmiley - I think you'd be really interested in the history of ClarisWorks. I don't have a specific link off hand, but they were headed exactly (well, almost exactly) where you're headed.
CW/AW actually was (is?) 100% frame-based. When they made the Word Processing component, for example, they just programmed it to automatically link together multiple 8.5x11 text boxes (one type of frame).
And, they do and have for quite a while had the ability to have Quicktime movies placed right in the middle of a Draw, Word Processing, or Presentation document!
If the CW/AW base had been kept and updated with newer tech, I think you'd have most of what you're looking for.
That said, I think you go a bit too far. As I tell my math students and the clients I develop databases for, there is no magic. 'Tis a grand vision you have, but all the details along the way have to line up to get you there.
For example, a database document pretty much needs to be a database document, as it structure is so different than the Canvas.app that you want (I think that would be a wonderful name, btw, assuming we want to drop "AppleWorks". The key is to give it CW's extreme ease of data merging.
It sounds like, in some ways, if they took the CW/AW Draw Component, updated it with newer tech that they already have, and added the ability to it the ability to play your pages as a Keynote presentation (even as an afterthought), with a floatable constantly changing control palette similar to Keynote's, we'd have Canvas.app!
(That said, please, please, please don't ever suggest that right clicking in the AW replacement does something - or my one-button mouse and I won't come to play with you.)
Maybe if MS taps into our iPod market, Apple will go for it!
McSmiley - I think you'd be really interested in the history of ClarisWorks. I don't have a specific link off hand, but they were headed exactly (well, almost exactly) where you're headed.
CW/AW actually was (is?) 100% frame-based. When they made the Word Processing component, for example, they just programmed it to automatically link together multiple 8.5x11 text boxes (one type of frame).
And, they do and have for quite a while had the ability to have Quicktime movies placed right in the middle of a Draw, Word Processing, or Presentation document!
If the CW/AW base had been kept and updated with newer tech, I think you'd have most of what you're looking for.
That said, I think you go a bit too far. As I tell my math students and the clients I develop databases for, there is no magic. 'Tis a grand vision you have, but all the details along the way have to line up to get you there.
For example, a database document pretty much needs to be a database document, as it structure is so different than the Canvas.app that you want (I think that would be a wonderful name, btw, assuming we want to drop "AppleWorks". The key is to give it CW's extreme ease of data merging.
It sounds like, in some ways, if they took the CW/AW Draw Component, updated it with newer tech that they already have, and added the ability to it the ability to play your pages as a Keynote presentation (even as an afterthought), with a floatable constantly changing control palette similar to Keynote's, we'd have Canvas.app!
(That said, please, please, please don't ever suggest that right clicking in the AW replacement does something - or my one-button mouse and I won't come to play with you.)
Maybe if MS taps into our iPod market, Apple will go for it!
iWork works
Thanks JSalzer. I will take a look at an old version of CW if I can find it.
Makes sense what you say about the database. I think what I would like is the database to be an OSX service as some in this thread have been suggesting it will be in Tiger, and that you could then access this from canvas.app/iWorks in the same way you access text services in textedit now. I take your point that a database needs to be just a database but if you could choose for your canvas to be mainly a database but STILL be able to use all those other tools to make it look good, then it would be nice I think. So having access to your itunes and garajeband loops/photos/etcetc from within the canvas.
Essentially what i would like to see is getting away from separate apps and have that sense of being able to grab hold of any tool you like at any time when you are trying to do something with the canvas - without having to leave the canvas. Kind of like having the perfect home workshop with all the tools ready to hand.
It also occurred to me that spotlight would come into its own here. If you were looking for a tune/photo/email text/movie/etc to add to your canvas, you could do a quick search from the menu bar and then just drag the icon from spotlight into the canvas. Even easier if spotlight turns out to have a preview box to it so you can see what the object is or even read and copy/paste the email text.
I guess you could also have a separate draft canvas (a bit like the white space surrounding an indesign page) where you could keep a bunch of objects you might use such as photos, text clippings etc - an easier way to try out different layout and design options without getting confused.
Agreed on the right click thing - it should be both a palette option and a right click option!
Oh well, will keep dreaming and hoping it happens.
Thanks JSalzer. I will take a look at an old version of CW if I can find it.
Makes sense what you say about the database. I think what I would like is the database to be an OSX service as some in this thread have been suggesting it will be in Tiger, and that you could then access this from canvas.app/iWorks in the same way you access text services in textedit now. I take your point that a database needs to be just a database but if you could choose for your canvas to be mainly a database but STILL be able to use all those other tools to make it look good, then it would be nice I think. So having access to your itunes and garajeband loops/photos/etcetc from within the canvas.
Essentially what i would like to see is getting away from separate apps and have that sense of being able to grab hold of any tool you like at any time when you are trying to do something with the canvas - without having to leave the canvas. Kind of like having the perfect home workshop with all the tools ready to hand.
It also occurred to me that spotlight would come into its own here. If you were looking for a tune/photo/email text/movie/etc to add to your canvas, you could do a quick search from the menu bar and then just drag the icon from spotlight into the canvas. Even easier if spotlight turns out to have a preview box to it so you can see what the object is or even read and copy/paste the email text.
I guess you could also have a separate draft canvas (a bit like the white space surrounding an indesign page) where you could keep a bunch of objects you might use such as photos, text clippings etc - an easier way to try out different layout and design options without getting confused.
Agreed on the right click thing - it should be both a palette option and a right click option!
Oh well, will keep dreaming and hoping it happens.
jsalzer said:
This write-up is a good introduction to how they did it.
http://www.swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bob/clarisworks.php
And here is the up-to-date version of the software. There's no Mac version because this product was originally written for the failed BeOS platform, and Apple weren't looking very healthy at the time of the Windows port either.
History Lesson
Thanks for the link, Meow! I had lost that link about a year ago.
Anywho - I'm now dying to get to work on Monday to try out Gobe (on my Wintel machine there.) I wonder why I've never heard of it before. You'd think a $55 suite that exports to Excel and Word would be out there more.
Thanks!!!
Thanks for the link, Meow! I had lost that link about a year ago.
Anywho - I'm now dying to get to work on Monday to try out Gobe (on my Wintel machine there.) I wonder why I've never heard of it before. You'd think a $55 suite that exports to Excel and Word would be out there more.
Thanks!!!
Gobe
Thanks Meow. Very interesting links. Gobe looks excellent if very Windows. Something along these lines but with more finesse, OSX technologies (and much less clutter) would be wonderful as iWork. And modern palettes that fold up rather than toolbars would be nice too.
thanks for the info.
Thanks Meow. Very interesting links. Gobe looks excellent if very Windows. Something along these lines but with more finesse, OSX technologies (and much less clutter) would be wonderful as iWork. And modern palettes that fold up rather than toolbars would be nice too.
thanks for the info.
Not soon enough...
I like Appleworks, now that I have finally gotten used to it. In the final version, the scroll function on my mouse does work with it though, which is really nice. And it solved that problem where the text used to be cut off at the sides of the pages.
Still, it feels like it's a generation too old.
I like Appleworks, now that I have finally gotten used to it. In the final version, the scroll function on my mouse does work with it though, which is really nice. And it solved that problem where the text used to be cut off at the sides of the pages.
Still, it feels like it's a generation too old.
thx bubbamac- funny that a few gifs and tables can screw up layout with Textedit and Appleworks (WP)- I'm still experimenting with Apple and the S/W i can get ((un)luckily with a Dull Win XP laptop by my side so 100% ok for work purposes). Dollars aren't the issue but functionality and reliablity are... hell I wrote a better machine code 8086 word processor (with spellcheck) at university in engineering!!!
Guess, if it takes a few years to be M$-free then fine by me ...
Guess, if it takes a few years to be M$-free then fine by me ...
How will Microsoft react?
It will be interesting to see how Microsoft will react. It all depends on what AWX will have. Is it strong enough to be competition for MacOffice? Is it OpenOffice compatible? Microsoft will see especially the latter as a big threat.
What can Microsoft do? They could drop Office for Mac. That strategy can work both ways. It can undercut the position of Mac OS X, but it is uncertain how much. How much of Mac OS X's position depends still on the availability of Microsoft Office? It can also work the other way, if Microsoft Office is dropped, it could strengthen the position of something OpenOffice-like.
Microsoft's monopoly is based in a large part on Microsoft Office (the other part is Exchange, these days). Windows is not the foundation of the monopoly as it used to be (though it is still part of it in terms of the availability of certain tools or the image of availability). If Microsoft strengthens the Microsoft Office availability (e.g. add Microsoft Office for Linux) it would harm the OS monopoly. But if it does not support alternative platforms with Microsoft Office, it could in the longer term speed up the break down of the Microsoft Office monopoly.
I would love to listen in to the discussions at Microsoft HQ on these issues.
It will be interesting to see how Microsoft will react. It all depends on what AWX will have. Is it strong enough to be competition for MacOffice? Is it OpenOffice compatible? Microsoft will see especially the latter as a big threat.
What can Microsoft do? They could drop Office for Mac. That strategy can work both ways. It can undercut the position of Mac OS X, but it is uncertain how much. How much of Mac OS X's position depends still on the availability of Microsoft Office? It can also work the other way, if Microsoft Office is dropped, it could strengthen the position of something OpenOffice-like.
Microsoft's monopoly is based in a large part on Microsoft Office (the other part is Exchange, these days). Windows is not the foundation of the monopoly as it used to be (though it is still part of it in terms of the availability of certain tools or the image of availability). If Microsoft strengthens the Microsoft Office availability (e.g. add Microsoft Office for Linux) it would harm the OS monopoly. But if it does not support alternative platforms with Microsoft Office, it could in the longer term speed up the break down of the Microsoft Office monopoly.
I would love to listen in to the discussions at Microsoft HQ on these issues.
I use QuarkExpress for my word processing needs. I find being able to do layouts is easier than in programs like Office.
GregA said:I'd love to see an announcement of "iWork - for Mac, Windows, and Linux"
Nice but don't think it's going to happen
becasue apple has not gfot any other that is compatible with other pltform and why should they share their amazing apps with the wintel people
Apple already sells Appleworks to Wintel.Platform said:Nice but don't think it's going to happen
becasue apple has not gfot any other that is compatible with other pltform and why should they share their amazing apps with the wintel people
And Cocoa (Openstep) used to run on many different Unixes.
BUT, I agree it's not going to happen.