These business registers are online where anyone can find them via google, or very shortly via an AI prompt such as "how do I contact the developers of the ***** iOS app?".
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Apps That Didn't Add 'Trader' Contact Info in the EU Removed From App Store
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It does not matter how small you are (business wise). If you provide a product that you sell to the public then you are a trader and as such have to follow EU rules.
From the article: "Developers who make money from the App Store through an upfront purchase price or through in-app purchases are considered traders, regardless of size." I charged, therefore would not be exempt.
A common assumption. But to grossly simplify the IRS (U.S. tax authority) definition of hobby: if someone does something for enjoyment, makes small amounts of money relative to their other sources of income, and is not primarily profit-driven, then it is most likely a hobby.
So the point is that the EU rules make it difficult to publish an app as a hobby, not a business. The hobby has suddenly become more expensive. Either the developer has to give their app away for free, or they have the new expenses associated with providing a email address and phone number.
If you just want to make back $100 -- set up a tip jar on your site and don't charge for the App on the App Store
Done
The article is likely incorrect. Both the Apple's documentation and case law suggest that it's not a clear-cut assessment. There is case-law cited about it, e.g. see C-105/17 - Kamenova:
Or just don't sell in the EU, which I am sure a lot of indie hobby devs will now do
So I just gotta ask, so a kid wants to have a lemonade stand I guess you're one of those people who thinks well than mom and dad need to get a permit. Post our information everywhere then the kid needs to pay taxes on the 20 bucks he made in the first hour before he got bored and didn't want to do it anymore.
I live in the EU and checked some apps. It turns out, not all apps provide trader contact info, including one definitely EU (a football club), one does sell the app including InApp purchases (don’t know if EU or not).
Both have a text saying, they did not identify as a trader for the app and that EU consumer laws do not apply.
So, I don’t get it. Something is wrong here. The info and the observable facts don’t add up.
Both have a text saying, they did not identify as a trader for the app and that EU consumer laws do not apply.
So, I don’t get it. Something is wrong here. The info and the observable facts don’t add up.
They probably do need a permit but that's even in most of the US:
About taxes:
So it's actually not that without its caveats even in the Land of the Free.
Conversely, I'm sure in the US just like in the EU if someone purchases a lemonade and ends up in the hospital for drinking it because it was somehow unsafe, they would want a way to track the responsible to held them accountable...
That, and the five or ten minutes spent by Apple in reviewing the app is enough to place your trust in that app?
Well, it's not as if they were available for the Vision Pro outside of Europe, is it?
But did you ever ask yourself why?
First, the Vision Pro isn't that popular - and making customised content for it is expensive.
And also, these companies have been burned by Apple's iOS business model - and seem to have learned their lesson:
No one wants one of their biggest competitors to monopolise the customer relationship. Nor fork over 30% of revenue for selling to customers that you have already acquired elsewhere. At least not if you're as big, well-known and popular as these big streaming services. If VR/AR becomes the "next big thing" after smartphones, they surely don't want Apple and their App Store policies rule that market.
It's market behaviour at play, just like you're advocating: You either play by Apple's rules - or do not play on that platform. "Take it or leave it". And these companies have decided not to prop up the proprietary platform of a company that happens to be one of their biggest competitors on their own turf (streaming services).
I mean, whatever the costs of creating and delivering dedicated content for Vision Pro:
It's neither coincidence nor lack of resources that they aren't even allowing their iPad apps to run on it.
They are deliberately withholding their apps from the Vision Pro.
And I'm 100% certain there are changes Apple could make to convince them not to.
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I can only say that the availability of said information has never factored into my decision to purchase an app. Heck, it didn’t even cross my mind until this article came about.
The few times I have had to reach out to a developer, it was either email or discord. The one time I needed to request a refund (because I both subscribed for a year and purchased it outright), Apple support did the job. And if apps get discontinued (eg: warhammer quest), I simply moved on.
Perhaps I have simply been fortunate (or blissfully ignorant) in that regard.
That’s the thing. These companies don’t, and I guess I can’t fault them for it. Netflix had “up next” ready to go for the Apple TV and never released it. It is what it is.
I as a customer do (very much prefer that Apple control the customer relationship as much as possible). I suppose that’s there our respective vested interests diverge. That’s why I am an Apple customer, and have stayed one for more than a decade now.
Not to mention that Netflix and Spotify were already circumventing Apple’s 30% / 15% cut. It’s just another for me to never use their services. I have gone through 4+ years of Microsoft withholding office from the iPad.
Fast forward to today. I am still using an iPad. I use the PowerPoint app from time to time, and I will move away from it in a heartbeat if I ever had to.
And life goes on.
Ahhh the 'Lemonade Stand' card get's played, how very typical. What people fail to understand is that in the US a family cannot just put up a lemonade stand for their child and start selling lemonade because there are permits, licenses and insurance to be considered. As this link from a US lawyer explains. (https://www.rocketlawyer.com/busine...d-need-an-official-permit-from-the-government).
In the EU it is the same, permits (if on public land), licenses (drink and food) and insurance (liability).
I still cannot fathom why people think a child can setup a lemonade stand and be done with it. This might have been how it used to be years go by but not anymore. A child's lemonade stand has to follow the rules of law just like anyone else.
Now understand my point. That's insane. This is why we have a generation of wage slaves. Lets teach kids from a young age that no your ideas and drive don't mean anything unless you have lots of money to get started.
What's next you have to have the IRS taking tabs at your garage sale and you have to pay them to be there? Everyone that buys something needs your social security number so when that beach ball pops a year from now, they can sue you?
What a wonder why the corporations have complete control the cost of entry to play the game just keeps getting deeper and deeper. No problem for the rich but you have a cool idea? Great, you will never have the funding to get started but you can sell it for pennies and let the big guys get rich off it. Got a cool idea for an app is it worth the risk? Just stay in your lane.
EDIT: I had to read the article you posted I have never laughed so hard in my life. Yes little Timmy with a single mother working two jobs is going to pull out a big bag of cash and setup a insured lemonade stand LLC then hand more cash to a tax bookie to take care of the books so he can sell Lemonade for a couple hours on Saturday.
Certainly explains why you don't see lemonade stands anymore. Let's all cheer who needs a kid trying to make some money when Church-Fil-A is down the road. Right guys?
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Nobody is saying children cannot have a lemonade stand, far from it but what they are saying is that there are certain requirements they must follow to be allowed to have their stand. Gone are the days when a person could just set up a drinks or cake stand in their yard and sell stuff to passers by. People need to understand those days are gone. Anyway this is straying from the thread topic.
All the EU is doing is making sure it's consumers are protected from unscrupulous app developers and unfortunately when such rules and laws are put in place it means everyone is affected.
The Apple App Store is no local neighbourhood or garage.
It’s a global - or in this case pan-European - marketplace and software distribution platform.
You don’t have kids from all around the country - or the world - selling lemonade in your local neighbourhood, have you?
That’s not the IRS - that would be Apple.
You have to pay Apple just to “be there”.
And on top of that, they’re imposing a 15% tax - beginning with the first 20 bucks that kid made through his app.
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And if iOS didn't exist you don't have an app to sell do you? Why do you think you can benefit off of something you didn't create/maintain? Yes the app is yours but if it doesn't run without someone else's OS why do you think you owe them nothing?
Why would Apple or any other company make/maintain a OS?
Apple just needs to completely overhaul development licenses. You sign a contract with Apple with a negotiated price to get access to XCODE. Then you don't have to worry about any of this. Oh your app hit the top 100 this year your renewal next year is 50K for a developer license.
This whole fight is being fought by companies that have insane amounts of money and they are saying hey Apple and Alphabet thanks for the years of building a huge customer base that I am going to profit off of while laughing in your face. You are owed nothing.
I mean you know what Alphabet does in those scenarios they just cut it off completely or start dropping features until it dies. There is zero reason for Apple and Alphabet to spend money maintaining an OS they don't make good money off of.
Yes, I agree they aren't going to close up shop but if tomorrow Apple/Android removed all fees and all that money disappeared do you think things would get better or worse in OS development? Maybe that's the point you want Apple/Alphabet to become more unstable less features etc.
You obviously like iPhone so why do you want the company that makes your iPhone to have less money which either means less quality or more expensive to you? I mean what do you actually want? If your response is I want to make money off of Apps for 99 bucks a year, then congrats and good luck finding an OS to publish to that has millions of users and has an owner that somehow maintains the OS for years.
If the developers don't give Apple the money, then either you do or Apple cuts more corners than they already are it's that simple.
Said this is many threads looking at the lackluster AI, Bugs, missing features both in OS and Hardware (Looking at you iPhone 16e) this only gets worse the more Apple loses sources of revenue. Can I prove it? No, however, what a crazy coincidence that Apple is raising prices while cutting basic features to milk every ounce of profit on hardware while they are directing money to developing custom OS images based on different regulations and deadlines or they lose more money in fines.
Let Epic, Spotify, and others kill the cow I know they will replace it right? Epic would never want a 30% cut for people to be on their appstore right?
So a Lemonde stand is very different. But on your logic I should be able to have a Lemonade Stand and Apple should provide access to a worldwide marketplace for people to buy a cup of lemonade, take care of the payment processing, store the product, and deliver it via download at no cost to me.
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Correct so now say it how it is. The days of a lemonade stand are gone unless you have money. So, this thing that's supposedly protecting the people is really protecting the big guys from competition. Huh seems like the exact opposite of what y'all have been fighting but what do I know.
How on earth is what the EU doing 'protecting the big guys'? because the EU rules affect everyone. EVERYONE in the EU that wants to trade and EVERYONE outside the EU that wants to trade with the EU must supply business credentials. All the EU is doing is protecting it's consumers from illegal and unscrupulous behaviour from those who want to sell their goods/products/services to EU consumers. Why is it you have a problem with that?
…and if government and law enforcement didn’t exist (both paid by tax dollars/Euros), no trustworthy marketplaces would exist.
To sell OS licenses, hardware devices and/or additional software.
Microsoft has successfully been doing it for decades.
So has Apple with their Mac platform.
No different than Apple laughing in app developers’ faces and saying: “You owe us 30% for nothing”.
No, it is not “either … or”:
- Less quality
- More expensive
- Less supracompetitive margins and earning 👉 that is what I want and what benefits consumers.
…unless the market is competitive.
You’re ignoring the fact that Apple is raking in billions of dollars in earnings every year. Cash that’s just sitting in Apple’s bank accounts basically, doing jack **** to improve their products!
Given how hugely profitable Apple is (and that includes operating margins), what you are describing is market failure.
Worse products at higher prices are not how well competitive markets work.
The market is failing consumers. Failing them to benefit from better and/or more affordable products and services.
And when a market and competition is failing, it’s up to government and regulators to intervene.
That’s what the Digital Markets Act is intended to induce: more competition.
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I want to sell my app, in order to do so I need a phone number I need insurance I need a PO Box I need this permit etc. Let's just say it all costs 20K just to start. The 17 year old in college making an app doesn't have 20K. I am not going to enter the market. So who wins? Those with money aka the big guys.
If I have to form a LLC and get insurance to sell Lemonade for a day who's going to do that? People with money.
So you don't get app development at all. I understand now. Your dream is everyones nightmare both small and large. Do you know what it takes to maintain an app for Apple and Android? Now you think companies are going to maintain apps for 10-15 OS platforms?
How soon we forget that Windows Phone died because it wasn't "worth it" for companies to make apps for it. Windows Phone wouldn't be dead if your logic worked.
The entire premise that somehow these companies are going to continue putting the same amount of money into something you use every day with profits slashed in half makes no sense. Thinking about it, Windows Phone and how few apps it had when it died is basically what you are asking for.
The reason why Android and Apple are successful is because its rare an app isn't available for both more competition will just mean more app fragmentation. If you are a small time dev you will have to pick and choose.
"If you don't have a factual argument to make, let's resort to an ad hominem" 🤡
Of course not. Where did I ever say something like that!?
Quite the contrary: I've always said that no one has interest in ten operating systems competing in the same form factor. Consumers and developers have converged on a duopoly of Apple iOS and Google Android. And the DMA, somewhat tacitly acknowledges that by preventing large platform operators from abusing their duopoly and leveraging it to unfairly compete on related markets.
Of course. We fully agree on that. Windows Phone didn’t make it due to a lack of third-party app ecosystem.
...while not being available for any other platform.
Apple and Google gave away their developer resources and respective marketplaces away for (basically) free early on. And through that successfully cornered the market for mobile operating system and distribution of applications.
Increasing competition drives down firms' profit margins.
In a perfectly competitive market, firms/producers earn zero economic profit in the long run.
I'm by no means advocating for Apple or Google to make zero profit.
As you said: "There is zero reason for Apple and Alphabet to spend money maintaining an OS they don't make good money off of."
Then again, there's little reason to innovate or - more importantly - deviate in design and OS functionality from what your competitor does, when there's a duopoly and consumers have to buy and use your OS anyway.
As it stands, both firms are - increasingly - earning money through software distribution: Commissions on sales of third-party software applications, for which they have dominant market positions as intermediaries.
And there's where the DMA comes in to regulate the market.
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If it is going to cost you that much to sell your app then blame the country you are in for charging so much because that is not the EU's fault.
The problem I see here is one of selfishness because all your doing is thinking of yourself, how hard it would be for you to sell your app, how difficult this, how difficult that. There is no thought about consumers/customers. For years there has been an issue of resolution when an app fails to work properly. App developers creating an app, getting their money and then doing a runner. The app starts causing issues or fails to work or stops working due to a iOS update and the ONLY way disgruntled customers can contact the app developer is via app feedback because the app developer did not leave an contact details. So, thousands of app customers are left with an app that no longer works and have no way of contacting the app developer whilst the app developer has run off with the money.
The lemonade stand, where is the protection for customers if the batch of lemonade is not made properly with the result being customers start getting ill? where is the customer protection? As far as I am aware it's near on impossible to sue a 5yr old child.
You need to look past your own concerns and look into the concerns of consumers/customers and that is exactly what the EU is doing, making sure app developers stop thinking about themselves and start thinking about their customers.