Apps That Didn't Add 'Trader' Contact Info in the EU Removed From App Store

[mw360]

I don’t need to know their home address, is what I am saying. An email address and maybe social media handle more than suffices for me. A lot of apps I purchase come from nameless, faceless devs and I personally have no issue with it. Perhaps this speaks more to the disposable nature of apps that I am fine spending $5 here or $10 there and if it’s a bust, then it’s a bust. I am not even going to bother with a refund.

But the cost of the app isn't the maximum possible injury a consumer could suffer is it? Not all apps are 'disposable'. There's banking apps, crypto apps, health apps, dating apps, rideshare apps, social apps, navigation apps, vacation apps. I don't need to know their address right now either, but if I ultimately want to sue somebody for serious fraud or negligence, I am going to need more than a twitter handle, or Apple saying 'don't worry, we closed their account so they're not going to do that again for at least 45 minutes.'

 

[Big_D]

Not good to compare a small company or lone dev as an Apple size corporation with a marketing department.

Apple started out with 2 guys working out of a garage. They didn't start life on day 1 as a trillion dollar mega corporation with tens of thousands of employees...

And, here in Germany, it was already a legal requirement for those indie devs to register themselves as a business and to publish their business address and phone number. I had to do it for several years, when I was working as a self-employed developer and consultant. It is just a fact of business life in the EU, the DMA has just moved the requirement from the dev's website and email signature, and local business directory, to also being on the app store, where their products are sold.

 

[PsykX]

You have both a business phone number and private / personal right?

Nope. I'm a part time developer. I do this during week ends and when I have some time.

It's not like owning a second number and address is free or something, it's pretty expensive.

 

[nostradumbass]

Apple started out with 2 guys working out of a garage. They didn't start life on day 1 as a trillion dollar mega corporation with tens of thousands of employees...

You saying the most ignorant and out of context thing imaginable.

The context here is the digital App Store, which the two Steves did not have back in the day. They did not even have an internet to experience tons of nuisance calls and messages.

AND IT IS APPLE WHO DISAGREE WITH THIS PHONE NUMBER NONSENSE

And, here in Germany, it was already a legal requirement for those indie devs to register themselves as a business and to publish their business address and phone

That is in the BUSINESS REGISTER not the App Store. Hardly anyone sees the business register. Lots of people see the App Store and the phone number of the dev are right there when they download from the product page.

You think a little harder next time you post on the internet.

 

[gweedo]

While I am no fan of EU regulations, I don't understand the problem. Get a PO Box and a separate phone number as a cost of doing business, simple as that, those are not very expensive at all.

Why should consumers have zero idea who they are doing business with? Devs certainly want all of consumers information!

display a meaningless address (po box) and a useless phone number... like most every eu regulation, pointless

 

[Big_D]

That is in the BUSINESS REGISTER not the App Store. Hardly anyone sees the business register. Lots of people see the App Store and the phone number of the dev are right there when they download from the product page.

You think a little harder next time you post on the internet.

And on their websites (Impressum) and in their email signature. I had to do that for around 6 years, when I was working as an independent developer and consultant.

 

[mw360]

You saying the most ignorant and out of context thing imaginable.

The context here is the digital App Store, which the two Steves did not have back in the day. They did not even have an internet to experience tons of nuisance calls and messages.

AND IT IS APPLE WHO DISAGREE WITH THIS PHONE NUMBER NONSENSE



That is in the BUSINESS REGISTER not the App Store. Hardly anyone sees the business register. Lots of people see the App Store and the phone number of the dev are right there when they download from the product page.

You think a little harder next time you post on the internet.

These business registers are online where anyone can find them via google, or very shortly via an AI prompt such as "how do I contact the developers of the ***** iOS app?".

 

[laptech]

It does not matter how small you are (business wise). If you provide a product that you sell to the public then you are a trader and as such have to follow EU rules.

 

[Bampf]

You've misunderstood the situation

What you're describing is exempt from Trader status and not subject to the requirements being discussedView them?

From the article: "Developers who make money from the ‌App Store‌ through an upfront purchase price or through in-app purchases are considered traders, regardless of size." I charged, therefore would not be exempt.

Are you charging money for the App? It's not a hobby

A common assumption. But to grossly simplify the IRS (U.S. tax authority) definition of hobby: if someone does something for enjoyment, makes small amounts of money relative to their other sources of income, and is not primarily profit-driven, then it is most likely a hobby.

So the point is that the EU rules make it difficult to publish an app as a hobby, not a business. The hobby has suddenly become more expensive. Either the developer has to give their app away for free, or they have the new expenses associated with providing a email address and phone number.

 

[turbineseaplane]

From the article: "Developers who make money from the ‌App Store‌ through an upfront purchase price or through in-app purchases are considered traders, regardless of size." I charged, therefore would not be exempt.

If you just want to make back $100 -- set up a tip jar on your site and don't charge for the App on the App Store
Done

 

[turbineseaplane]

But to grossly simplify the IRS (U.S. tax authority) definition of hobby:

Does not apply here

 

[bsolar]

From the article: "Developers who make money from the ‌App Store‌ through an upfront purchase price or through in-app purchases are considered traders, regardless of size." I charged, therefore would not be exempt.

The article is likely incorrect. Both the Apple's documentation and case law suggest that it's not a clear-cut assessment. There is case-law cited about it, e.g. see C-105/17 - Kamenova:

40 Thus, the mere fact that the sale is intended to generate profit or that a person publishes, simultaneously, on an online platform a number of advertisements offering new and second-hand goods for sale is not sufficient, by itself, to classify that person as a ‘trader’, within the meaning of Article 2(b) of Directive 2005/29 and Article 2(2) of Directive 2011/83.

 

[thefrost]

Not EU regulations again.

 

[jozero]

It does not matter how small you are (business wise). If you provide a product that you sell to the public then you are a trader and as such have to follow EU rules.

Or just don't sell in the EU, which I am sure a lot of indie hobby devs will now do

 

[Stromos]

It does not matter how small you are (business wise). If you provide a product that you sell to the public then you are a trader and as such have to follow EU rules.

So I just gotta ask, so a kid wants to have a lemonade stand I guess you're one of those people who thinks well than mom and dad need to get a permit. Post our information everywhere then the kid needs to pay taxes on the 20 bucks he made in the first hour before he got bored and didn't want to do it anymore.

 

[roken70]

I live in the EU and checked some apps. It turns out, not all apps provide trader contact info, including one definitely EU (a football club), one does sell the app including InApp purchases (don’t know if EU or not).

Both have a text saying, they did not identify as a trader for the app and that EU consumer laws do not apply.

So, I don’t get it. Something is wrong here. The info and the observable facts don’t add up.

 

[bsolar]

So I just gotta ask, so a kid wants to have a lemonade stand I guess you're one of those people who thinks well than mom and dad need to get a permit. Post our information everywhere then the kid needs to pay taxes on the 20 bucks he made in the first hour before he got bored and didn't want to do it anymore.

They probably do need a permit but that's even in most of the US:

In many cases, in order for your kid to open up a lemonade stand, you’ll need the right permits and licenses. Start by visiting local or state government websites to learn which paperwork is required. This could involve obtaining a business license as well as any vendor’s permit that are needed to undergo health inspections if mandatory.

About taxes:

When a lemonade stand is able to generate profits, it may be necessary for the child responsible to pay taxes. This obligation can either be completed individually or by including the information on an adult’s tax return. With this in mind, having one of these stands is not exempt from fiscal regulations even if only selling lemonade.

So it's actually not that without its caveats even in the Land of the Free.

Conversely, I'm sure in the US just like in the EU if someone purchases a lemonade and ends up in the hospital for drinking it because it was somehow unsafe, they would want a way to track the responsible to held them accountable...

 

[AppliedMicro]

An email address and maybe social media handle more than suffices for me. A lot of apps I purchase come from nameless, faceless devs and I personally have no issue with it.

That, and the five or ten minutes spent by Apple in reviewing the app is enough to place your trust in that app?

If users can cheer the Vision Pro not getting apps like YouTube, Netflix and Spotify, they will be fine being shut out of access to select apps in their region as well.

Well, it's not as if they were available for the Vision Pro outside of Europe, is it?
But did you ever ask yourself why?

First, the Vision Pro isn't that popular - and making customised content for it is expensive.
And also, these companies have been burned by Apple's iOS business model - and seem to have learned their lesson:

No one wants one of their biggest competitors to monopolise the customer relationship. Nor fork over 30% of revenue for selling to customers that you have already acquired elsewhere. At least not if you're as big, well-known and popular as these big streaming services. If VR/AR becomes the "next big thing" after smartphones, they surely don't want Apple and their App Store policies rule that market.

It's market behaviour at play, just like you're advocating: You either play by Apple's rules - or do not play on that platform. "Take it or leave it". And these companies have decided not to prop up the proprietary platform of a company that happens to be one of their biggest competitors on their own turf (streaming services).

I mean, whatever the costs of creating and delivering dedicated content for Vision Pro:
It's neither coincidence nor lack of resources that they aren't even allowing their iPad apps to run on it.

They are deliberately withholding their apps from the Vision Pro.
And I'm 100% certain there are changes Apple could make to convince them not to.

 

[Abazigal]

That, and the five or ten minutes spent by Apple in reviewing the app is enough to place your trust in that app?

I can only say that the availability of said information has never factored into my decision to purchase an app. Heck, it didn’t even cross my mind until this article came about.

The few times I have had to reach out to a developer, it was either email or discord. The one time I needed to request a refund (because I both subscribed for a year and purchased it outright), Apple support did the job. And if apps get discontinued (eg: warhammer quest), I simply moved on.

Perhaps I have simply been fortunate (or blissfully ignorant) in that regard.

No one wants one of their biggest competitors to monopolise the customer relationship.
Nor fork over 30% of revenue for selling to customers that you have already acquired elsewhere.
At least not if you're as big, well-known and popular as these big streaming services.

That’s the thing. These companies don’t, and I guess I can’t fault them for it. Netflix had “up next” ready to go for the Apple TV and never released it. It is what it is.

I as a customer do (very much prefer that Apple control the customer relationship as much as possible). I suppose that’s there our respective vested interests diverge. That’s why I am an Apple customer, and have stayed one for more than a decade now.

Not to mention that Netflix and Spotify were already circumventing Apple’s 30% / 15% cut. It’s just another for me to never use their services. I have gone through 4+ years of Microsoft withholding office from the iPad.

Fast forward to today. I am still using an iPad. I use the PowerPoint app from time to time, and I will move away from it in a heartbeat if I ever had to.

And life goes on.

 

[laptech]

So I just gotta ask, so a kid wants to have a lemonade stand I guess you're one of those people who thinks well than mom and dad need to get a permit. Post our information everywhere then the kid needs to pay taxes on the 20 bucks he made in the first hour before he got bored and didn't want to do it anymore.

Ahhh the 'Lemonade Stand' card get's played, how very typical. What people fail to understand is that in the US a family cannot just put up a lemonade stand for their child and start selling lemonade because there are permits, licenses and insurance to be considered. As this link from a US lawyer explains. (https://www.rocketlawyer.com/busine...d-need-an-official-permit-from-the-government).

In the EU it is the same, permits (if on public land), licenses (drink and food) and insurance (liability).

I still cannot fathom why people think a child can setup a lemonade stand and be done with it. This might have been how it used to be years go by but not anymore. A child's lemonade stand has to follow the rules of law just like anyone else.

 

[Stromos]

Ahhh the 'Lemonade Stand' card get's played, how very typical. What people fail to understand is that in the US a family cannot just put up a lemonade stand for their child and start selling lemonade because there are permits, licenses and insurance to be considered. As this link from a US lawyer explains. (https://www.rocketlawyer.com/busine...d-need-an-official-permit-from-the-government).

In the EU it is the same, permits (if on public land), licenses (drink and food) and insurance (liability).

I still cannot fathom why people think a child can setup a lemonade stand and be done with it. This might have been how it used to be years go by but not anymore. A child's lemonade stand has to follow the rules of law just like anyone else.

Now understand my point. That's insane. This is why we have a generation of wage slaves. Lets teach kids from a young age that no your ideas and drive don't mean anything unless you have lots of money to get started.

What's next you have to have the IRS taking tabs at your garage sale and you have to pay them to be there? Everyone that buys something needs your social security number so when that beach ball pops a year from now, they can sue you?

What a wonder why the corporations have complete control the cost of entry to play the game just keeps getting deeper and deeper. No problem for the rich but you have a cool idea? Great, you will never have the funding to get started but you can sell it for pennies and let the big guys get rich off it. Got a cool idea for an app is it worth the risk? Just stay in your lane.

EDIT: I had to read the article you posted I have never laughed so hard in my life. Yes little Timmy with a single mother working two jobs is going to pull out a big bag of cash and setup a insured lemonade stand LLC then hand more cash to a tax bookie to take care of the books so he can sell Lemonade for a couple hours on Saturday.

Certainly explains why you don't see lemonade stands anymore. Let's all cheer who needs a kid trying to make some money when Church-Fil-A is down the road. Right guys?

 

[laptech]

Now understand my point. That's insane. This is why we have a generation of wage slaves. Lets teach kids from a young age that no your ideas and drive don't mean anything unless you have lots of money to get started.

What's next you have to have the IRS taking tabs at your garage sale and you have to pay them to be there? Everyone that buys something needs your social security number so when that beach ball pops a year from now, they can sue you?

What a wonder why the corporations have complete control the cost of entry to play the game just keeps getting deeper and deeper. No problem for the rich but you have a cool idea? Great, you will never have the funding to get started but you can sell it for pennies and let the big guys get rich off it. Got a cool idea for an app is it worth the risk? Just stay in your lane.

EDIT: I had to read the article you posted I have never laughed so hard in my life. Yes little Timmy with a single mother working two jobs is going to pull out a big bag of cash and setup a insured lemonade stand LLC then hand more cash to a tax bookie to take care of the books so he can sell Lemonade for a couple hours on Saturday.

Certainly explains why you don't see lemonade stands anymore. Let's all cheer who needs a kid trying to make some money when Church-Fil-A is down the road. Right guys?

Nobody is saying children cannot have a lemonade stand, far from it but what they are saying is that there are certain requirements they must follow to be allowed to have their stand. Gone are the days when a person could just set up a drinks or cake stand in their yard and sell stuff to passers by. People need to understand those days are gone. Anyway this is straying from the thread topic.

All the EU is doing is making sure it's consumers are protected from unscrupulous app developers and unfortunately when such rules and laws are put in place it means everyone is affected.

 

[AppliedMicro]

So I just gotta ask, so a kid wants to have a lemonade stand

What's next you have to have the IRS taking tabs at your garage sale and you have to pay them to be there?

The Apple App Store is no local neighbourhood or garage.
It’s a global - or in this case pan-European - marketplace and software distribution platform.
You don’t have kids from all around the country - or the world - selling lemonade in your local neighbourhood, have you?

What's next you have to have the IRS taking tabs at your garage sale and you have to pay them to be there?

That’s not the IRS - that would be Apple.

You have to pay Apple just to “be there”.
And on top of that, they’re imposing a 15% tax - beginning with the first 20 bucks that kid made through his app.

 

[Stromos]

The Apple App Store is no local neighbourhood or garage.
It’s a global - or in this case pan-European - marketplace and software distribution platform.
You don’t have kids from all around the country - or the world - selling lemonade in your local neighbourhood, have you?


That’s not the IRS - that would be Apple.

You have to pay Apple just to “be there”.
And on top of that, they’re imposing a 15% tax - beginning with the first 20 bucks that kid made through his app.

And if iOS didn't exist you don't have an app to sell do you? Why do you think you can benefit off of something you didn't create/maintain? Yes the app is yours but if it doesn't run without someone else's OS why do you think you owe them nothing?

Why would Apple or any other company make/maintain a OS?

Apple just needs to completely overhaul development licenses. You sign a contract with Apple with a negotiated price to get access to XCODE. Then you don't have to worry about any of this. Oh your app hit the top 100 this year your renewal next year is 50K for a developer license.

This whole fight is being fought by companies that have insane amounts of money and they are saying hey Apple and Alphabet thanks for the years of building a huge customer base that I am going to profit off of while laughing in your face. You are owed nothing.

I mean you know what Alphabet does in those scenarios they just cut it off completely or start dropping features until it dies. There is zero reason for Apple and Alphabet to spend money maintaining an OS they don't make good money off of.

Yes, I agree they aren't going to close up shop but if tomorrow Apple/Android removed all fees and all that money disappeared do you think things would get better or worse in OS development? Maybe that's the point you want Apple/Alphabet to become more unstable less features etc.

You obviously like iPhone so why do you want the company that makes your iPhone to have less money which either means less quality or more expensive to you? I mean what do you actually want? If your response is I want to make money off of Apps for 99 bucks a year, then congrats and good luck finding an OS to publish to that has millions of users and has an owner that somehow maintains the OS for years.

If the developers don't give Apple the money, then either you do or Apple cuts more corners than they already are it's that simple.

Said this is many threads looking at the lackluster AI, Bugs, missing features both in OS and Hardware (Looking at you iPhone 16e) this only gets worse the more Apple loses sources of revenue. Can I prove it? No, however, what a crazy coincidence that Apple is raising prices while cutting basic features to milk every ounce of profit on hardware while they are directing money to developing custom OS images based on different regulations and deadlines or they lose more money in fines.

Let Epic, Spotify, and others kill the cow I know they will replace it right? Epic would never want a 30% cut for people to be on their appstore right?

So a Lemonde stand is very different. But on your logic I should be able to have a Lemonade Stand and Apple should provide access to a worldwide marketplace for people to buy a cup of lemonade, take care of the payment processing, store the product, and deliver it via download at no cost to me.

 

[Stromos]

Nobody is saying children cannot have a lemonade stand, far from it but what they are saying is that there are certain requirements they must follow to be allowed to have their stand. Gone are the days when a person could just set up a drinks or cake stand in their yard and sell stuff to passers by. People need to understand those days are gone. Anyway this is straying from the thread topic.

All the EU is doing is making sure it's consumers are protected from unscrupulous app developers and unfortunately when such rules and laws are put in place it means everyone is affected.

Correct so now say it how it is. The days of a lemonade stand are gone unless you have money. So, this thing that's supposedly protecting the people is really protecting the big guys from competition. Huh seems like the exact opposite of what y'all have been fighting but what do I know.