Apps That Didn't Add 'Trader' Contact Info in the EU Removed From App Store

[TechnoMonk]

A lot of iPhone users are not technically minded. It’s just good practice to provide some form of customer support, even if their questions seem dumb to you and me.

Providing support and blasting phone numbers and address are very different things. One doesn’t depend on other.

 

[TechnoMonk]

Maybe, but what is liability for the business is protection for the consumer. Ultimately there is need for some sort of balance as you definitely don't want businesses to be unaccountable for the products they sell to consumers.

Said that, IMHO if a developer is doing actual business they should be operating under a LLC anyway, regardless of whether they are in the EU or not.

This is not about consumer either. It’s about control.

 

[bsolar]

This is not about consumer either. It’s about control.

Some form of control will always be necessary in a free market. Free market does not mean lack of accountability.

It's again a matter of balance.

 

[0049190]

Providing support and blasting phone numbers and address are very different things. One doesn’t depend on other.

The EU are trying to make the app market more professional and less like the Wild West in order to protect consumers. Personally I think that’s a good thing.

I hate the way some companies hide behind a generic email address with no other contact details.

 

[turbineseaplane]

I think some people are underestimating this barrier.

Most apps make no money. But that doesn't stop people from putting out apps, often in their spare time, and hoping to find an audience. One of the attractions of the App Store was that the up-front cost was low. If you owned a Mac and iPhone already (millions do) you could use free tools to develop something. If you got an audience, you could scale up, quit your day job, start a business.

This was a great model for Apple too - lots of store content, and if an app hit it big Apple got 30%.

Yes, it's a labor of love for many developers (it was for me), but that doesn't mean we want to subsidize our hobby to the tune of hundreds of dollars every year. My personal goal was to make back Apple's developer license fee every year, and I only managed that the first year.

I get that the EU had reasons for this requirement, but let's not pretend this is an easy lift for all indie developers. They aren't bellyaching because they are "lazy".

You've misunderstood the situation

What you're describing is exempt from Trader status and not subject to the requirements being discussed

 

[webkit]

Those who support the DMA and the EU:

"Small developers shouldn't have to pay the outrageous $99 developer fee that Apple charges!!!!"

Also those who support the DMA and the EU:

"A separate telephone number and PO Box are just a cost of doing business! If you don't like it, you shouldn't be in business!!!!"

I think the issue some had was much more about the 15% to 30% app/in-app commission and payment processing fees than the $99 developer fee. Also, about not having the option of offering their iOS app in alternative app stores or through their own website/store potentially for less. Obviously, alternatives can have costs too so it wasn't about eliminating costs completely.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Those who support the DMA and the EU:

"Small developers shouldn't have to pay the outrageous $99 developer fee that Apple charges!!!!"

Also those who support the DMA and the EU:

"A separate telephone number and PO Box are just a cost of doing business! If you don't like it, you shouldn't be in business!!!!"

It would be more accurate to say that most of us who support the EU believe that Apple shouldn't be gatekeeping at all, which would allow developers to directly distribute to consumers

 

[Korito]

How is this so hard to comprehend? You are selling something aka doing business. Results or size does not matter, you are doing or trying to do business. As a business your business contact data as well as other data must be public. Same goes for trades, corporations etc. From smallest to biggest.
It doesn’t matter if you are an indie dev who can’t afford a pack of gums, you are doing (or trying) to do business in EU thus you must respect the laws there.

 

[Hajj.david]

How is this so hard to comprehend? You are selling something aka doing business. Results or size does not matter, you are doing or trying to do business. As a business your business contact data as well as other data must be public. Same goes for trades, corporations etc. From smallest to biggest.
It doesn’t matter if you are an indie dev who can’t afford a pack of gums, you are doing (or trying) to do business in EU thus you must respect the laws there.

If you want support, email us, why on earth would I staff a phone line for a small app? I plan on purely malicious compliance. A completely unmanned phone and mail box that goes straight to the trash.

We have proper support channels including chat and email tickets. Companies should not be forced to provide addresses and phone numbers when that is not a proper avenue of support. Its a bit ironic because Google is also enforcing this nonsense yet Google themselves do not have a support number, even for paying workspace customers.

 

[iSee]

I removed my app from the EU rather than figure out what my responsibilities are under this rule/regulation/law/whatever it is.

It wasn't worth the few bucks my very modest app was making there.

 

[sdragon]

How do you view this information? I don't see it on the app I worked on or some of the others I checked in the App Store. Is it only visible in the EU?

 

[TechnoMonk]

The EU are trying to make the app market more professional and less like the Wild West in order to protect consumers. Personally I think that’s a good thing
I hate the way some companies hide behind a generic email address with no other contact details.

That’s pretty much most companies, especially small time developers who can’t afford extra overhead. All the over reach of regulation does is stifle innovation and helps the big companies.small developers will just pull out of EU.

 

[TechnoMonk]

If you want support, email us, why on earth would I staff a phone line for a small app? I plan on purely malicious compliance. A completely unmanned phone and mail box that goes straight to the trash.

We have proper support channels including chat and email tickets. Companies should not be forced to provide addresses and phone numbers when that is not a proper avenue of support. Its a bit ironic because Google is also enforcing this nonsense yet Google themselves do not have a support number, even for paying workspace customers.

Iron curtain. It hurts small developers and benefits the big companies.

 

[0049190]

That’s pretty much most companies, especially small time developers who can’t afford extra overhead. All the over reach of regulation does is stifle innovation and helps the big companies.small developers will just pull out of EU.

Asking for a telephone number and address is over reach? If anyone feels like that they should withdraw their apps.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

Actually, most of us who support the EU more accurately believe that Apple shouldn't be gatekeeping at all, which would allow developers to directly distribute to consumers

"maximally truth-seeking"

 

[turbineseaplane]

So if I'm understanding the opposition to providing a business address and phone number...

Devs want to charge money from customers, but want to remain fully anonymous to those same customers?

 

[turbineseaplane]

"maximally truth-seeking"

Post was edited

 

[AppliedMicro]

Those who support the DMA and the EU:
"Small developers shouldn't have to pay the outrageous $99 developer fee that Apple charges!!!!"

It’s not about fixed yearly fees.
It’s about the 30%/15% quasi-tax they’re imposing on everyone’s software revenues.

$99/year is very reasonable for worldwide distribution on Apple’s App Store.

Also those who support the DMA and the EU:
"A separate telephone number and PO Box are just a cost of doing business! If you don't like it, you shouldn't be in business!!!!"

Phone lines and mailing address services are (more or less) fixed costs - and they are subject to competition.

Again: I take zero issues with Apple’s 30% commission rate - as long as there’s room for fair competition.

 

[AppliedMicro]

Companies should not be forced to provide addresses and phone numbers when that is not a proper avenue of support

Companies may be infringing someone else’s - that’s why they should have an address that mail can be served to.

So if I'm understanding the opposition to providing a business address and phone number...
Devs want to charge money from customers, but want to remain fully anonymous to those same customers?

It”s an established business (and accountability) model with illegal arms dealers, drug smugglers, stolen-goods sellers, etc.

I don’t think businesses need be forced to have a phone number - but an official mailing address is reasonable.
Many (all?) EU businesses have had to provide it on their website anyway.

 

[skofgar]

Then they shouldn't be developers if they can't afford another SIM card! Consumers have rights in Europe.

What about student projects, or hobby apps. I literally make $50 a year of my hobby app. And in certain countries secondary phone numbers or PO boxes are either not cheap or not trivial.

It just prevents people from publishing fun/little projects and people immediately have to aim for profitability to pay for all the fees and additional things to set up.

There’s already a lot of hurdles to overcome, so it just makes it more difficult.

At this point I also feel like I need to create a company or non-profit to just be legally separated from everything because I’ve no idea what these phone numbers or PO boxes would be used for.

And I don’t want to sift through spam calls or check a PO box for random mails from strangers

 

[turbineseaplane]

What about student projects, or hobby apps. I literally make $50 a year of my hobby app. And in certain countries secondary phone numbers or PO boxes are either not cheap or not trivial.

It just prevents people from publishing fun/little projects and people immediately have to aim for profitability to pay for all the fees and additional things to set up.

There’s already a lot of hurdles to overcome, so it just makes it more difficult.

At this point I also feel like I need to create a company or non-profit to just be legally separated from everything because I’ve no idea what these phone numbers or PO boxes would be used for.

And I don’t want to sift through spam calls or check a PO box for random mails from strangers

Are you charging money for the App?

It's not a hobby

It may be a better route to use a donation method / tip jar / patreon model for folks to show appreciation for small casual things rather than charging for the Software, which takes things into the business realm

To your point, it's only $50 ... just forego collecting that and you're exempt from Trader status

 

[AppliedMicro]

What about student projects, or hobby apps. I literally make $50 a year of my hobby app. And in certain countries secondary phone numbers or PO boxes are either not cheap or not trivial.

It just prevents people from publishing fun/little projects and people immediately have to aim for profitability to pay for all the fees and additional things to set up.

👉 Just publish your app from your own website. Problem solved. 👍

It would be more accurate to say that most of us who support the EU believe that Apple shouldn't be gatekeeping at all, which would allow developers to directly distribute to consumers

One very important thing to keep in mind:

👉 The DSA applies to large intermediaries, online platforms and marketplaces (including the App Store).

Not to anyone’s little “hobby app” website that takes donations for three software.

It puts an end to Apple’s business model of “Oh, we’re charging good money/commissions on sales on our platform - but we have zero responsibility for the content distributed. We don’t even know or disclose the identities of businesses sellers on our platform”.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Not to anyone’s little “hobby app” website that takes donations for three software.

So no restrictions on devs doing direct software distribution, correct?

 

[skofgar]

Are you charging money for the App?

It's not a hobby

It may be a better route to use a donation method / tip jar / patreon model for folks to show appreciation for small casual things rather than charging for the Software, which takes things into the business realm

To your point, it's only $50 ... just forego collecting that and you're exempt from Trader status

I am using apple’s in app purchase for donations. Other means of donations (or promoting other payment methods is not permitted - unless maybe someone registers as a non-profit, which again, is quite a bit of additional effort)

So it’s not simple.

I just think the guidance is really vague and Apple’s ecosystem doesn’t make this easier.
So I just removed my apps from the EU, because educating and adjusting my apps requires too much effort.

 

[AppliedMicro]

So no restrictions on devs doing direct software distribution, correct?

There may be other obligations on businesses - just as in any other jurisdiction.
But yes - the DSA obligations don’t apply if you distribute it yourself.

Here’s the wording of rhetorical relevant legal text:

“Providers of online platforms allowing consumers to conclude distance contracts with traders shall ensure that traders can only use those online platforms to promote messages on or to offer products or services to consumers located in the Union if, prior to the use of their services for those purposes, they have obtained the following information, where applicable to the trader”:
(a) the name, address, telephone number and email address of the trader”

I don’t see anything preventing Apple from marketing and selling apps in their own name either (without providing developers’ info). But again, that would be taking responsibility (for their content), wouldn’t it?

There’s only four instances of “telephone number” in the while text thing. Among them the one relevant and applicable to Apple. Besides that, there are also further exemptions for small and micro enterprises (that provide “platforms”).

But yeah… operating a large platform or “App Store” and saying…
“I got nuthin’ to do with the traders on it- don’t even have to know or tell you who they are or how to contact them”…
That won’t fly anymore.