Aqua vs Aero

[shrimpdesign]

well, Mr.

I didn't say expose isn't good or useful, i was merely suggesting vista's flip3D isn't useless, is that such a big deal? even apple has alt+tab, altho looks not cute. does anything Vista has u feel NOT useless and good?

You were basically saying that Expose and Flip 3D are the same thing, and that Mac users demean Window's version of Expose for no reason, which isn't true. There are specific reasons why Expose is better. Flip 3D is just eye candy added to Alt-Tab, so it has very little new functionality, besides looking cool.

A lot of people mistake Apple's visual cues for eye candy. Visual cues tell the user what is going on, eye candy is just looks. Apple uses visual effects to tell the user what is going on; there is always specific reasons for the visual effects. Flip 3D doesn't have a good reason to be 3D, other than to "look cool" and that is empty interface design.

 

[Eric5h5]

Apple uses visual effects to tell the user what is going on; there is always specific reasons for the visual effects.

Except for the ripple effect...I can't think of a good reason for that. But overall you're right.

--Eric

 

[Xyl]

Thanks. Somebody had to say it.

The thing is, clevin doesn't realize that when he argues on Issue A, most (not all) of the time, there's 90 points for Apple and 10 points against, and yet all he knows is to emphasize those 10 points till its all battered and hammered into the ground. And this is always possible because all discussions always have points to both sides, in greater or lesser amounts.

 

[maxrobertson]

1. It is an artifical restriction, Vista can probably run Aero at 256mb of memory but God....
2. I have owned Macs with 512mb of memory before, it is not pretty. 256? You gotta be joking
3. Aero actually has pretty spiffy effects, like the stacked 3D Windows thingy we see in ads. What does OS X use the GPU for? Just that ripple effect and maybe Expose.

Tell that to the 9200 on the G4 Mac Mini. No matter how you cut it, it requires some shape of hardware support.

I had an iMac (G3) with 384 megabytes of memory, and it ran OS X quite well. The Mac Mini I bought on eBay that just happened to have 1 GB of RAM does run it better, but I don't think 1 GB is really a "requirement." At least not on a PowerPC machine.

 

[decksnap]

I've run Panther on 256 mb of RAM in multiple instances. It runs fine for basic users. Haven't tried Tiger with that RAM, but it would probably run even better.

 

[apfhex]

You were basically saying that Expose and Flip 3D are the same thing, and that Mac users demean Window's version of Expose for no reason, which isn't true. There are specific reasons why Expose is better. Flip 3D is just eye candy added to Alt-Tab, so it has very little new functionality, besides looking cool.

A lot of people mistake Apple's visual cues for eye candy. Visual cues tell the user what is going on, eye candy is just looks. Apple uses visual effects to tell the user what is going on; there is always specific reasons for the visual effects. Flip 3D doesn't have a good reason to be 3D, other than to "look cool" and that is empty interface design.

I couldn't agree more. After fiddling around with Vista/Aero for a few hours, I started to get really tried of the flashy visuals and colors everywhere. Frankly, booting back into Tiger afterwards was like stepping out of a dance party and going back to a quiet bedroom.

Aero looks nice. It looks very nice, and very very shiny. But shiny does not equal usability. If I had to use Vista with Aero full time for graphic design, I'd probably go crazy (you can turn it off, but blah). But I can see that for the rest of the people out there — I think lots of gamers and office workers — Aero will be a nice visual stimulant.

p.s. Flip 3D is useless to the point that... well... it almost makes it harder. I don't know why they even bothered, it's not even really that cool looking.

 

[Marble]

I used 512MB of RAM in my TiBook until a few months ago, and never had any problems with Aqua. I can't use Core Image, but the UI has never been sluggish.

Also, killmoms is right that the technology that Apple uses in Exposé, the ripple, and the genie effect could easily reproduce "glassy" titlebars and "Flip3D." It shows that Apple isn't afraid of competing with Vista's candy, because frankly they don't have to be. The functionality is already there. The beauty is already there. And with Core Animation in Leopard immanent, I don't even expect Aero's novelty to last.

 

[Project]

One thing I would love to see Apple steal from Aero Glass is Alt-Tab with full previews and not icons. Beryl/XGL has this too. Its pretty nice.

 

[a456]

One thing I would love to see Apple steal from Aero Glass is Alt-Tab with full previews and not icons. Beryl/XGL has this too. Its pretty nice.

OS X does already have the 'full preview' in Expose, which in many ways is more convenient than shuffling through all open windows - press F9. The functionality will be added to with Spaces in Leopard.

Further, there are two means of navigation (in some programs at least) in OS X in addition to Expose. The Command Tab moves between programs and Alt Fn F6 for example moves between windows in Word. To the best of my knowledge Windows XP does not have this and I have no idea about Vista (each window is treated as a separate program). My worry would be not only that it takes time to shuffle through all the open windows of all programs but that the graphical demands (especially on Windows machines) makes this a painful process, all for the sake of some extra eye candy.

 

[bartelby]

I have owned Macs with 512mb of memory before, it is not pretty. 256? You gotta be joking.

My 233Mhz G3 PowerBook with 192 RAM and 4MB VRAM runs 10.2.8 very nicely.

 

[mojohanna]

Except for the ripple effect...I can't think of a good reason for that. But overall you're right.

--Eric

There has to be a "cool factor" or Steve wouldn't be able to say how cool it was during the keynote IMO the cool factor is what makes the innovative pieces fun to use on top of being efficient and productive.

 

[EricNau]

Except for the ripple effect...I can't think of a good reason for that. But overall you're right.

--Eric

The ripple effect provides feedback to the user. In nature, you see the ripple effect when dropping an item into water - In OS X you see the ripple effect when you drop the widget onto your dashboard.

 

[Scarlet Fever]

The ripple effect provides feedback to the user. In nature, you see the ripple effect when dropping an item into water - In OS X you see the ripple effect when you drop the widget onto your dashboard.

how cool would it be if it rippled while you moved it... and the ripples bounced off other widgets...

 

[EricNau]

how cool would it be if it rippled while you moved it... and the ripples bounced off other widgets...

I'd probably get seasick.

 

[Platform]

how cool would it be if it rippled while you moved it... and the ripples bounced off other widgets...

Send an email to ADC....sounds like a nice feature to me

 

[iShak]

last week i installed vista 14 day trial on my macbook, thought 14 days would be enough to give me a good idea of how vista really is ..

logged into mac osX and deleted vista after only 15 minutes!

the bluey/teal colour of the windows (couldnt get aero to work) was hard on eyes, when i started hard disk had 6.5GB of free space, after 15 minutes it had gone down to 5.8GB (maybe due to pagefile cuz i am on 512mb ram), i have used xp for good part of 2 years and consider myself fairly windows 'compatible' still vista seemed so alien to me .. took 5 minutes to get my head around how things work in vista, everytime i tried to install something the screen went black-sh and asked me if i wanted to continue . .nag nag nag ..

in short .. i still have xp (cuz i still dont know how to use internet over bluetooth on a mac .. and i have to use xp for internet surfing) .. but i will definitely wont be moving on to vista at all!! especially after this > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6319845.stm

^ that was offtopic ..


now, aero vs aqua ... well the good thing about aero is that it is good looking, and black .. haha ... and aqua is kinda old .. BUT if you dont have a decent graphic card, you get the same old yucky windows GUI with a sharp teal/bluey colours and ugly buttons, however with aqua everyone gets the same treat no 'discrimination' at all! and thats why aqua gets my vote.

 

[clevin]

sounds like i have some problem in expressing myself, thats fine, i would now retract all the word i said that is not proper, only left these 3 points

1. flip3D isn't useless, it doesn't matter if OSX has a better way to do the same job, windows need a app do the job, and ppl impressed with its looks.

2. some ppl here at MR. tend to bashing everything apple doesn't have as "useless".

3. comparison of vista and osx shouldn't come down to what it looks.

u guys can call me what u want, won't surprise me.

 

[clevin]

last week i installed vista 14 day trial on my macbook, thought 14 days would be enough to give me a good idea of how vista really is ..

logged into mac osX and deleted vista after only 15 minutes!

the bluey/teal colour of the windows (couldnt get aero to work) was hard on eyes, when i started hard disk had 6.5GB of free space, after 15 minutes it had gone down to 5.8GB (maybe due to pagefile cuz i am on 512mb ram), i have used xp for good part of 2 years and consider myself fairly windows 'compatible' still vista seemed so alien to me .. took 5 minutes to get my head around how things work in vista, everytime i tried to install something the screen went black-sh and asked me if i wanted to continue . .nag nag nag ..

in short .. i still have xp (cuz i still dont know how to use internet over bluetooth on a mac .. and i have to use xp for internet surfing) .. but i will definitely wont be moving on to vista at all!! especially after this > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6319845.stm

altho i was having the same doubt about why ppl should give up XP since its so successful. but the article u cited really doesn't hold water.
HD/Blue RAY disk's DRM protection, good or bad, is going to be included in all platform, future OSX would have the same thing if it were to support them. there is no way u can avoid that, if that happen, would u stick to Tiger forever? on the other hand, M$'s product does have higher chance than OSX to be hacked, in comparison, I don't know where your logic will lead you to in the end..

 

[iShak]

altho i was having the same doubt about why ppl should give up XP since its so successful. but the article u cited really doesn't hold water.
HD/Blue RAY disk's DRM protection, good or bad, is going to be included in all platform, future OSX would have the same thing if it were to support them. there is no way u can avoid that, if that happen, would u stick to Tiger forever? on the other hand, M$'s product does have higher chance than OSX to be hacked, in comparison, I don't know where your logic will lead you to in the end..

HD/BR protection aside, thats due to pressure from hollywood as the article clearly states and probably we will have same measures for MAC, whenever we get them ..

what bothers me is the activation, reactivation if their highness MS wants to (read bully), limited backup copies (only 1... what???), dodgy fine print that says windows defender can remove any 'unwanted' programs, with no definition for 'unwanted' programs!, i feel if e.g norton suspects i am using a pirated copy of AV then it can use windows defender (directly or indirectly) to limit the finctionality or remove it completely! (just a thought), the DRM protection built into vista .. and that 30 calls per second to check the legitimacy of media just drives the final nail ... why are MS so insecure?

 

[clevin]

what bothers me is the activation, reactivation if their highness MS wants to (read bully), limited backup copies (only 1... what???), dodgy fine print that says windows defender can remove any 'unwanted' programs, with no definition for 'unwanted' programs!, i feel if e.g norton suspects i am using a pirated copy of AV then it can use windows defender (directly or indirectly) to limit the finctionality or remove it completely! (just a thought), the DRM protection built into vista .. and that 30 calls per second to check the legitimacy of media just drives the final nail ... why are MS so insecure?

i heard that complaint before, i remember last time i checked, M$ said Vista will allow user change the more hardwares than XP would before asking for re-activation.
about windows defender, can't you uninstall it?

I guess M$ feels insecure probably because 99% of the hacker are watching it closely.. in that situation, would you?

 

[Eraserhead]

MORE importantly, you can drag clippings, images, files, basically ANYTHING between Exposé modes. So I can show the desktop, grab a file, show all windows, and drop that file in that window. I can grab an image from my browser, show the desktop, and then use spring-loaded folders to drill down in the HD and save the file easily. And with hot-corners, I don't have to hit a single key to do it.

Nice tip!

in short .. i still have xp (cuz i still dont know how to use internet over bluetooth on a mac .. and i have to use xp for internet surfing) ..

I'd start a thread on this, it's certainly possible, try looking in System Preferences==>Bluetooth==>Devices==>Set up new Device.

Oh and clevin calling Microsoft M$, it is old and immature.

 

[iShak]

i heard that complaint before, i remember last time i checked, M$ said Vista will allow user change the more hardwares than XP would before asking for re-activation.
about windows defender, can't you uninstall it?

I guess M$ feels insecure probably because 99% of the hacker are watching it closely.. in that situation, would you?

so MS would know when we change and what we change, i dont want them spying on my system in first place, if i have spent 100+GBP on a legit software i expect to be left alone and do what ever i feel like with my purchase, but no!, MS says '"this agreement only gives you some rights to use the software. Microsoft reserves all other rights". ... who's incharge here? me or spying MS? i know this is the deal with most of the softwares around still, vista takes it a bit too far

as for uninstalling win defender, i dont know, you might not be able to BUT if you can, then either keep it and let MS mess with your pc OR uninstall it and let the rest of the world mess with your pc (spyware, malware, adware,<anything>ware .. ) ... OR spend some more and get third party anti-everything ... lose lose situation.

99% of hackers are watchin it .. haha .. yeah but punish 'them'! why make it difficult for someone with a legit copy?

 

[iShak]

I'd start a thread on this, it's certainly possible, try looking in System Preferences==>Bluetooth==>Devices==>Set up new Device.

thankyou! .. i did start a thread on this topic but got many views and no replies, thought about meeting up with a genius at apple store but i live in a remote town and its a long drive so

i have tried running scripts and messing around with bluetooth device setups, i just dont get an option to start PAN/internet etc.

 

[John Dillinger]

I have to add that Ive had two G4 emacs with measly 1Ghz and 1.25 which came with 128 and 256 RAM respectively as standard, both ran panther and Tiger with no problems on the graphic front. I did upgrade RAM as I used them for sound editing. This definitely goes to show how crappy the resource management is on vista compared to even panther.
Also it is pretty clear to me that the transparent windows could easily be applied on osx, there are loads of progs for osx that do this.
I still dont think that vista looks any better than vista though ive only watched video of vista in action, but it still doesnt seem as crisp/clean as aqua.

Finally theres absolutely no reason mac users should break a sweat even if vista did do stuff osx couldnt, as we'd only have to wait max a couple of years to catch up compared to windows' 5+ to do a bodge job!

 

[ecksmen]

Because the Mac programers are really good at their job and can design software to run under low ram (iPhoto, iMovie) and the same follows for the UI. microsoft hasn't figured out how to compact their ui or programs ram usage. Even the XP ui required around 512 to operate correctly.

I think your conclusions aren't exactly fair. Macs have a very limited hardware base, the different hardware configurations of mac are fair less than that of the PC.

Microsoft need to program with maximum compatibility, macs on the other hand can be coded for far more specifally.