Are PCs becoming worse value than Macs?

[ElPaso]

For a long time Macs felt worse value than PCs, however at the moment I feel the reverse is true, possibly due to the RAM/SSD/GPU shortage that is currently hitting other brands harder than Apple.

Currently in the UK, here's a comparison of a Dell laptop and a well specced out 16 inch MacBook Pro with the same amount of RAM/storage:

Dell XPS 16 (£4199):

Intel Core Ultra 7 358H, Intel Arc graphics, 64GB RAM, 4TB SSD, Windows 11 Home, 16" 2K display (1-120Hz, 500 nits)

M5 Max MacBook Pro (£4918 with student discount):

Apple M5 Max (18 CPU cores, 40 GPU cores), 64GB unified RAM, 4TB SSD, MacOS Tahoe, 16" Liquid Retina XDR display

While the MacBook Pro costs a bit more, it is also a significantly better machine in numerous areas, most notably in terms of its GPU and RAM performance, as well as having a superior display resolution, and feels better value for the price. The Dell machine's CPU/GPU is similar in terms of multicore CPU/GPU performance to the M3 Pro or base M5, while its single core performance is roughly on a par with the M2. I don't know what SSD the Dell has, but I suspect the one on the M5 Max machine is faster (knowing that it is fast).

If the current chip shortage continues and Apple continue to find a way through it without significant price hikes, it makes me wonder if the Apple's computer market share will increase noticeably. Dell used to be around half the price of Apple when it came to machines with roughly equivalent specs.

I haven't purchased a laptop computer in 7 or 8 years, and so went in fresh (so to speak) when I decided to replace it a couple of weeks ago. With my budget, I targeted $600-$650 for a price to look at.

To make a long story short, MacBook Neo ($599) vs. ANY Windows PC in the same price range? PCs are not getting worse, dollar-for-dollar they definitely are worse. And not because of the "RAM/SSD/GPU shortage" -- the MacBook is clearly higher quality in every area imaginable. I can only assume that this holds true in higher priced devices, too . . .

 

[1BadManVan]

I have to disagree with the wording.
First off value is subjective and secondly, while macs were historically more expensive then some PCs, they were were generally on par with other high quality machines. Also Apple positioned them as a premium product, you got premium build quality, and user experience. Some may disagree, but overall the Macs were a great value over many PCs, even if they were more expensive.


A bit more? It was 700 more. That's not a minor amount, plus are you comparing apples to apples? Are you using the student discount for Dell like you are for Apple? I suspect the difference will be much higher

As for performance, I used claude AI to compare the two, and this is what it does computationally and they're equivalent I'm unsure about GPU, but I'll probably say the Mac wins out there..
View attachment 2633913

I'm going to say for nearly the same performance, the Dell represents a lot better value, though the Mac will win out battery wise, which has been the case now for many years.

This is why I don’t use Ai to do my work for me. Those benchmark figures are not even remotely close to being right for the 358h LOL.

 

[theorist9]

As for performance, I used claude AI to compare the two, and this is what it does computationally and they're equivalent I'm unsure about GPU, but I'll probably say the Mac wins out there..
View attachment 2633913

I keep trying to convince people that it's better to do their own research than to rely on AI. While the GB6 SC score Claude specified for the M5 Max is within the known range, the 358H score is way off.

According to geekbench's own website, the 358H's GB6 SC score is 3,053, not the Claude-supplied 4,262.

So the SC performance of the two is not close to equivalent.

Source:
From https://browser.geekbench.com/v6/cpu/compare/16339955?baseline=16339955

 

[Madonepro]

One area that has not been discussed, in this topic, is the relationship between hardware and operating system.

PC's are made to fit the OS, and their specific device drivers are tweaked to do that. Mac's and the OS are intertwined from conception, creating a smoother experience. This fact, has a profound experience on PC users, as a poorly performing OS greatly affects the experience, as does poorly configured hardware.

For decades, we suffered with a mismatch of hardware and OS in the PC environment, and I imagine that's what drove Microsoft to venture into Mac's realm, of designing and building it's own hardware. I have never owned such, so hopefully this those that have, may be able to shed some information, as to whether the PC is experience is better using Microsofts own, rather than an OEM.

 

[Sami13496]

PCs have always been worse value than Macs. Being cheaper isn’t the same thing as offering better value. The average PC is a flimsy plastic laptop that runs hot, comes packed with bloatware, and has awful battery life. And now that we have Neo, it’s not even a competition anymore.

 

[Allen_Wentz]

One area that has not been discussed, in this topic, is the relationship between hardware and operating system.

PC's are made to fit the OS, and their specific device drivers are tweaked to do that. Mac's and the OS are intertwined from conception, creating a smoother experience. This fact, has a profound experience on PC users, as a poorly performing OS greatly affects the experience, as does poorly configured hardware.

For decades, we suffered with a mismatch of hardware and OS in the PC environment, and I imagine that's what drove Microsoft to venture into Mac's realm, of designing and building it's own hardware. I have never owned such, so hopefully this those that have, may be able to shed some information, as to whether the PC is experience is better using Microsofts own, rather than an OEM.

Well whatever the experience has been with Microsoft's own hardware, it has not yet been good enough to garner significant market share of personal computer sales.

 

[MacCheetah3]

@Queen6 I’m not downplaying your laptop config, however, I feel it’s important to keep things in an objective check.

Premium build full metal chassis, 16" 1200 nit micro led display, Ryzen 9 9955HX3D (unlocked CPU), 5070Ti, 32GB, 1TB (upgraded to 3TB), water cooling loop built in. For perspective it can easily take on a M5 Max on air. Doesn't do well on the battery, but that's not its purpose. If people stopped paying these absurd prices, they would drop real fast, however...

We have a different set of wants. I have a fast desktop. I want a performant 14 inch laptop for use on the road. Not a big heavy tank.

GeForce RTX 5090 Laptop vs 5070 Ti Laptop: gaming performance tests

We compared RTX 5070 Ti Laptop vs RTX 5090 Laptop to find out which GPU has better performance in games, benchmarks, and apps.

nanoreview.net

Apple M5 Max GPU (40-core) vs GeForce RTX 5090 Laptop: performance testing

We compared M5 Max GPU (40-core) vs RTX 5090 Laptop to find out which GPU has better performance in games, benchmarks, and apps.

nanoreview.net

The 5070 Ti (mobile) does outperform the M5 Max in general, raw computing. However:

M5 Max 40-Core GPU vs RTX 5090 Mobile

NVIDIA RTX 5090 Mobile vs Apple M5 Max 40-Core GPU: technical specs, games and benchmarks.

technical.city

Would have preferred the 64GB model, but that SKU only has the Ryzen 9 9955HX and the HX3D makes a big difference when the SW allows. Can always upgrade the RAM in time as pricing remains static here.

The X3D (i.e., CPUs with only a difference of significantly extra cache) is extremely overhyped (by the “hardcore” gamer community). Their benefit is far more niche than ‘social media’ would have you believe. A single spotlighted example:

AMD's X3D CPUs only help with two things, and most gamers have neither

3D V-Cache isn't a reason to buy blindly.

www.xda-developers.com

An unlisted sample: I assure you FAH benefits from the extra cache, that is, when folding via only GPU(s). It’s difficult to get exact figures as every WU is different. Although, beyond plotting average PPD over time, you can see the difference in GPU load consistency (e.g., monitor the average GPU load in HWInfo64). With a ‘standard’ CPU, there are regular dips in GPU utilization as FAH frequently pings the CPU — why? I’m not entirely sure. In my experience, the blips can drop the GPU utilization as low as 50% for about a second. With a Ryzen X3D CPU, for example, the essential data seemingly fits in CPU L3 cache, therefore, these GPU pings — whatever they may be communicating — are handled quicker, the brief dips are far less pronounced. The apparent performance uplift is in the single-digit percentage. I’d guess 10-percent at best. Something like averaging ~89% vs. ~95% GPU utilization from my immediate recollection. In other words, Ryzen X3D CPUs are only noticeably better in tasks that are very sensitive to I/O latency — and that’s not a gamer clicking buttons. Even then, only/mostly to enthusiasts.

Anyway…. Circling back to the thread topic specifically… Value is subjective, including but not limited to workflow/tasks. Additionally, a lot of modern performance numbers are also only substantial, easily noticeable on paper. You’d be hard-pressed to find any consistent preference with blind taste testing, so to speak.

 

[Naraxus]

PC's have always been and always will be a worse value than Macs. Period

 

[Gourlish]

Currently, I can do significantly more with a Dell XPS 15 7590, which is almost component-for-component identical to the MacBook Pro (16-inch, 2019) than I can with said MacBook Pro. I am supported to run the version of Windows 11 due out this fall. This is not the case with said MacBook Pro.

Furthermore, I'm looking to replace my MacBook Pro (13-inch, M1, 2020) with a MacBook Air (15-inch, M5). I would not necessarily be needing to do this to a PC of the same vintage right now.

If you're comparing specs and current pricing, given the RAM shortage and price hikes driven by it, sure, Macs hold more value. But, I question how long Apple will support these Macs and allow them to run as fast as before. Tahoe is making every M1 I have feel second rate and I know that isn't JUST because Tahoe is a bloated piece of garbage.

I think Tahoe has had some performance issues compared with previous versions of MacOS. While it runs fairly smoothly on an M5 Max, I have noticed that even then there is often a slight lag in the spotlight apps menu animation, which isn't the case for the launchpad animation in Sequoia on a base M3. Hopefully the next major version will fix some of the problems that Tahoe has had.

 

[Steve Adams]

PC's have always been and always will be a worse value than Macs. Period

Not accurate at all. I bought a 2007 acer aspire 7720 and a 2007 macbook crackbook. 5 years later, the crackbook was useless since Apple and Google stopped supporting their browsers for the system and I installed windows 7 on the acer and kept going. in 2016 I installed windows 10 on that same computer and kept going. It's still being used today as a music player and control my guitar equipement in my music room. I can still do everything on that machine while I had to go and download chromium onto the macbook to get some type of functionality out of it.

I don't do hacks and work arounds.

 

[vladi]

Funny things is $3000 2015 Mac laptops with bootcamp run just fine to this day thanks to Windows. That cant be said with MacOS part in them. So its the Windows that gave them extra shelf life.

 

[macfacts]

PC's have always been and always will be a worse value than Macs. Period

Wrong: If I configure a MacBook pro with 8 tb storage the price jumps to about 8000 CAD,I can get an Asus zephyrus about 3000 CAD and a Samsung 990 evo: 2x 4tb m.2 ssd for 2x$1400 CAD,iFixit screw driver set for about $20. And macs don't come with apple stickers anymore.

 

[Steve Adams]

And macs don't come with apple stickers anymore.

There goes that value proposition for sure! EDIT: that being said, I am expecting to shell out probably that much for my new surface laptop ultra this fall. But it's replacing 2 systems in my setup, so I will take it no problem.

 

[Queen6]

@Queen6 I’m not downplaying your laptop config, however, I feel it’s important to keep things in an objective check.

GeForce RTX 5090 Laptop vs 5070 Ti Laptop: gaming performance tests

We compared RTX 5070 Ti Laptop vs RTX 5090 Laptop to find out which GPU has better performance in games, benchmarks, and apps.

nanoreview.net

Apple M5 Max GPU (40-core) vs GeForce RTX 5090 Laptop: performance testing

We compared M5 Max GPU (40-core) vs RTX 5090 Laptop to find out which GPU has better performance in games, benchmarks, and apps.

nanoreview.net

The 5070 Ti (mobile) does outperform the M5 Max in general, raw computing. However:

M5 Max 40-Core GPU vs RTX 5090 Mobile

NVIDIA RTX 5090 Mobile vs Apple M5 Max 40-Core GPU: technical specs, games and benchmarks.

technical.city

The X3D (i.e., CPUs with only a difference of significantly extra cache) is extremely overhyped (by the “hardcore” gamer community). Their benefit is far more niche than ‘social media’ would have you believe. A single spotlighted example:

AMD's X3D CPUs only help with two things, and most gamers have neither

3D V-Cache isn't a reason to buy blindly.

www.xda-developers.com

An unlisted sample: I assure you FAH benefits from the extra cache, that is, when folding via only GPU(s). It’s difficult to get exact figures as every WU is different. Although, beyond plotting average PPD over time, you can see the difference in GPU load consistency (e.g., monitor the average GPU load in HWInfo64). With a ‘standard’ CPU, there are regular dips in GPU utilization as FAH frequently pings the CPU — why? I’m not entirely sure. In my experience, the blips can drop the GPU utilization as low as 50% for about a second. With a Ryzen X3D CPU, for example, the essential data seemingly fits in CPU L3 cache, therefore, these GPU pings — whatever they may be communicating — are handled quicker, the brief dips are far less pronounced. The apparent performance uplift is in the single-digit percentage. I’d guess 10-percent at best. Something like averaging ~89% vs. ~95% GPU utilization from my immediate recollection. In other words, Ryzen X3D CPUs are only noticeably better in tasks that are very sensitive to I/O latency — and that’s not a gamer clicking buttons. Even then, only/mostly to enthusiasts.

Anyway…. Circling back to the thread topic specifically… Value is subjective, including but not limited to workflow/tasks. Additionally, a lot of modern performance numbers are also only substantial, easily noticeable on paper. You’d be hard-pressed to find any consistent preference with blind taste testing, so to speak.

It delivers and that's all I really care about... Cyberpunk 2077

Max setting baring path tracing, this a perspective that works...

Q-6

 

[Steve Adams]

It delivers and that's all I really care about... Cyberpunk 2077
View attachment 2634123
Max setting baring path tracing, this a perspective that works...

Q-6

Great for gaming, crap for travelling. Two different use cases.

 

[Queen6]

We have a different set of wants. I have a fast desktop. I want a performant 14 inch laptop for use on the road. Not a big heavy tank.

A sacrifice am willing to take given the performance on tap, nor is it really that heavy. best described as being dense.

Q-6

 

[vladi]

One area that has not been discussed, in this topic, is the relationship between hardware and operating system.

PC's are made to fit the OS, and their specific device drivers are tweaked to do that. Mac's and the OS are intertwined from conception, creating a smoother experience. This fact, has a profound experience on PC users, as a poorly performing OS greatly affects the experience, as does poorly configured hardware.

For decades, we suffered with a mismatch of hardware and OS in the PC environment, and I imagine that's what drove Microsoft to venture into Mac's realm, of designing and building it's own hardware. I have never owned such, so hopefully this those that have, may be able to shed some information, as to whether the PC is experience is better using Microsofts own, rather than an OEM.

You guys dont remember the Mac days without unified app window aka life before fullscreen apps.

 

[Queen6]

Great for gaming, crap for travelling. Two different use cases.

Is actually very easy to travel with and runs engineering simulations like a dream. Yes it has weight to it, yet its extremely compact by design. 16" notebook with a 14" footprint, with this level of performance on tap only reason to not like is you don't have one...

Q-6

 

[Steve Adams]

Is actually very easy to travel with and runs engineering simulations like a dream. Yes it has weight to it, yet its extremely compact by design. 16" notebook with a 14" footprint, with this level of performance on tap only reason to not like is you don't have one...

Q-6

NOT REALLY. I don't want a chonky 6 lb space heater. Does not interest me in the least. There is no jealously here at all. You do you and enjoy that system. Great. Seems like someone has a complex about their pc choice.

 

[maflynn]

chonky 6 lb space heater.

??
What do you mean?

 

[Tyler O'Bannon]

I think Mac’s have been a better value for quite some time when it comes to quality, design, and longevity

 

[Madonepro]

You guys dont remember the Mac days without unified app window aka life before fullscreen apps.

You assume wrong then... I've been using Mac's since 1992, and my first purchase was a Performa DE

 

[Queen6]

NOT REALLY. I don't want a chonky 6 lb space heater. Does not interest me in the least. There is no jealously here at all. You do you and enjoy that system. Great. Seems like someone has a complex about their pc choice.

Likely you as your the one stuck with a Dell...😂

Q-6

 

[uacd]

Yep. Mac has been “poor man’s computer” ever since M1 days or even earlier, around when cryptomining rush started (2017 I believe).

And tbh I am ok with my “peasant’s fate”: Mac still “just works”, despite numerous bugs and slowdowns with every update. But still I don’t feel like I want to experience Windows again. Linux - maybe, some day, probably as a hobby project, but definitely not Windows 11.

In terms of gaming - there is Switch 2, Steam Deck, soon - Steam Machine. All are wonderful devices with simple ecosystems with “click to play” functionality

 

[doolar]

For a long time Macs felt worse value than PCs, however at the moment I feel the reverse is true, possibly due to the RAM/SSD/GPU shortage that is currently hitting other brands harder than Apple.

Currently in the UK, here's a comparison of a Dell laptop and a well specced out 16 inch MacBook Pro with the same amount of RAM/storage:

Dell XPS 16 (£4199):

Intel Core Ultra 7 358H, Intel Arc graphics, 64GB RAM, 4TB SSD, Windows 11 Home, 16" 2K display (1-120Hz, 500 nits)

M5 Max MacBook Pro (£4918 with student discount):

Apple M5 Max (18 CPU cores, 40 GPU cores), 64GB unified RAM, 4TB SSD, MacOS Tahoe, 16" Liquid Retina XDR display

While the MacBook Pro costs a bit more, it is also a significantly better machine in numerous areas, most notably in terms of its GPU and RAM performance, as well as having a superior display resolution, and feels better value for the price. The Dell machine's CPU/GPU is similar in terms of multicore CPU/GPU performance to the M3 Pro or base M5, while its single core performance is roughly on a par with the M2. I don't know what SSD the Dell has, but I suspect the one on the M5 Max machine is faster (knowing that it is fast).

If the current chip shortage continues and Apple continue to find a way through it without significant price hikes, it makes me wonder if the Apple's computer market share will increase noticeably. Dell used to be around half the price of Apple when it came to machines with roughly equivalent specs.

At least since the introduction of the retina MacBook Pros I found better value with Macs. They just last a lot longer, even than similarly priced PCs.

And since AS there’s really no contest unless you really need an application that’s not available on macOS. When Apple introduced the MacBook Air M1 it was basically over.

My current employer moved everyone off Windows PCs to Mac’s all while keeping Office365 since it runs better on macOS anyway.