Are the 2017 Macbook Pro's as bad as people say?

[groove-agent]

Not exactly. My point is a hypothetical rebuttal based on the "statistics" offered by the other poster. I'm taking his example and playing devil's advocate. By no means do I believe this is a proper sample of machines.

It's hard to say if a personal machine would be treated better than an office machine. I think it depends on the user.

Well, are you going to do statistics based on a couple of offices using MBP's? But I am sure there is a lot of dust in these offices. These MBP's get used and abused a lot by constant editing, moving around, being used outside, etc. It is totally different when it is your personal machine. I normally take care of my laptops and make sure they are clean. With that being said, I do agree that dust should not cause such problems.
[doublepost=1517105601][/doublepost]
How long have you been using yours?

 

[Falhófnir]

The technology is 2+ years old. The rapid pace of tech dictates buying what you can afford of the newest technology available. I once advised someone to buy something less than this because they weren't going to do anything intensive. But not too long after they made the purchase, they asked why said machine couldn't do what they wanted. From then on, my only advise is what I would do. The only place I've ever seen people recommend old tech for a new machine is here. It's bad advice. I've only been involved in computers since the 70's so take what I say however you wish.

if your experience is from the 70s to the present it’s easy to see why you’re still in the mindset that a 2 year old computer is obsolete; from the 70s to the 2000s that was probably true. From Haswell-Kaby Lake, though, improvements were minimal and we are talking about a machine that was already top spec and is still more powerful than most. Things might pick up from here (with 8th gen) but if that’s the case, the Kaby Lake machines themselves are already obsolete too.

 

[OriginalAppleGuy]

if your experience is from the 70s to the present it’s easy to see why you’re still in the mindset that a 2 year old computer is obsolete; from the 70s to the 2000s that was probably true. From Haswell-Kaby Lake, though, improvements were minimal and we are talking about a machine that was already top spec and is still more powerful than most. Things might pick up from here (with 8th gen) but if that’s the case, the Kaby Lake machines themselves are already obsolete too.

I wouldn't say it stopped in the 2000's. There is a big difference between the 2016 and 2017 models. I'm not talking about processor speeds. Those numbers stopped growing in the 2000's because other things became more important to processing faster. RAM speed, Bus speed, HD speed all matter. With processors, it become cores and threads. The more cores you have and more threads you can run, the slower you can run them and achieve better performance than previous generations. For mobile devices, that means longer run times. For the 2017, it means cooler temps. Which is the main reason I spent more and went with the it instead of the 2016. Well, aside from the faster bus speeds, etc.

You're right, though - Kaby Lake processors are already obsolete. As new processors are released, there are a couple more developed getting ready for production.

Step away from Laptops/PCs for a minute and look at phones for example. The 7 of 2016 has a processor with 4 cores. Two designed for non-intensive processing use and two for performance. Both can't be used at the same time so you effectively have a 2 core processor depending on needs. That changed in 2017, one year later with the 8 and X, where the A11 Bionic can use all cores at the same time. One year later - big difference.

 

[curtoise]

You can think about this, I still have a flawless working 2007 white plastic MacBook, battery is dead but the laptop works great, that is a 11 years old laptop, cooling got better, screens got better, processors and memory technology is better, assembly and production lines got better, I think the 2017 will do ok.
In 2007 there were no forums to complain about the OCD issues that many people complain about and most of them go thru 20 returns-exchange looking for the perfect one. You would buy a Mac and use the hell out of the computer for 7+ years. Now every click and bait site will be watching reddit to start the next Mac"gate" as soon as they can.

 

[Mainsail]

Does anyone on this form know if a silicone keyboard cover helps to reduce the chance of keyboard failure on the new MBP? If the issue is associated with dust and debris getting between/under the keys, I would think a cover would make a big difference.

I use a KB cover on my MBA to prevent damage from accidental spills. It takes a little getting used to......but, I actually like the rubbery feel. It seems like a pretty inexpensive fix, since you can buy them on Amazon for under $10.

Anyway, does anyone have experience using a KB cover on the new MBP?

 

[TonyK]

if your experience is from the 70s to the present it’s easy to see why you’re still in the mindset that a 2 year old computer is obsolete; from the 70s to the 2000s that was probably true. From Haswell-Kaby Lake, though, improvements were minimal and we are talking about a machine that was already top spec and is still more powerful than most. Things might pick up from here (with 8th gen) but if that’s the case, the Kaby Lake machines themselves are already obsolete too.

70's? Really. Personal computers, and I mean affordable personal computers, really got started in the 1980's. Before that they were for hobbyists and people with $$$. The Apple IIe stayed the same for a long time. During the late 80's, all through the 90's and into the 00's it made sense to keep up with technological changes. Gamer still have to do that to a certain extent.

But for what most people do, a MBP could be overkill.

Personally I opted for the 2015 over the 2016 in May 2016 because I could get it new in box, save big $$$ doing so and get what I wanted. Having a number of USB2 and USB3 devices meant I did not want dongles or hubs to keep connected.

What cinched it for me is I tried the 2016 keyboard. I'm not a great fan of any Apple keyboard but I can survive on the 2015 or the chick-let keyboard I have connected to my MP right now. I prefer a full throw, mechanical keyboard with tactile feedback But the keyboard of the 2016 (and now 2017) did not provide the responsiveness and feel desired for my fingers.

As I told a friend so many years ago, you can wait and wait and wait and just after you make a decision, something will be released that could make you regret your decision. It is better to buy and get to using what is known than waiting forever for that unknown, magical device.

 

[Falhófnir]

I wouldn't say it stopped in the 2000's. There is a big difference between the 2016 and 2017 models. I'm not talking about processor speeds. Those numbers stopped growing in the 2000's because other things became more important to processing faster. RAM speed, Bus speed, HD speed all matter. With processors, it become cores and threads. The more cores you have and more threads you can run, the slower you can run them and achieve better performance than previous generations. For mobile devices, that means longer run times. For the 2017, it means cooler temps. Which is the main reason I spent more and went with the it instead of the 2016. Well, aside from the faster bus speeds, etc.

You're right, though - Kaby Lake processors are already obsolete. As new processors are released, there are a couple more developed getting ready for production.

Step away from Laptops/PCs for a minute and look at phones for example. The 7 of 2016 has a processor with 4 cores. Two designed for non-intensive processing use and two for performance. Both can't be used at the same time so you effectively have a 2 core processor depending on needs. That changed in 2017, one year later with the 8 and X, where the A11 Bionic can use all cores at the same time. One year later - big difference.

Sure there's differences other than processor speeds. But who would honestly feel the difference between a 2016 SSD and a 2017? Probably only if transferring massive files all day, and this is about a general use computer here. The same goes double for ram speeds & bus speeds. But there aren't any more cores between a 2016 machine and a 2017. True to say that could be a difference which will make the 2018 machines worth it over all that came before, but we aren't there yet. Realistically, for general usage, a 2015 can do all a 2016 or 2017 can do. The major tradeoff is a bit more fatness and weight. Perhaps you'll get an extra hour of web browsing, but 9 vs 10 hours, is that really such a big deal? This is different to the general churn of technology. Yes there will always be something better, but its no longer the case that will happen every generation. Haswell - Kabylake is a period of minimal difference. A bit more efficiency, a bit less heat, a bit more battery life a tad more performance. Not a world apart, even cumulatively to be honest.

Yes and if there's a parallel with intel chips it'll be 7th gen to 8th gen. Again, when Coffee Lake appears, you're pretty well as behind with a Kaby Lake as you are with a Haswell.

70's? Really. Personal computers, and I mean affordable personal computers, really got started in the 1980's. Before that they were for hobbyists and people with $$$. The Apple IIe stayed the same for a long time. During the late 80's, all through the 90's and into the 00's it made sense to keep up with technological changes. Gamer still have to do that to a certain extent.

But for what most people do, a MBP could be overkill.

Personally I opted for the 2015 over the 2016 in May 2016 because I could get it new in box, save big $$$ doing so and get what I wanted. Having a number of USB2 and USB3 devices meant I did not want dongles or hubs to keep connected.

What cinched it for me is I tried the 2016 keyboard. I'm not a great fan of any Apple keyboard but I can survive on the 2015 or the chick-let keyboard I have connected to my MP right now. I prefer a full throw, mechanical keyboard with tactile feedback But the keyboard of the 2016 (and now 2017) did not provide the responsiveness and feel desired for my fingers.

As I told a friend so many years ago, you can wait and wait and wait and just after you make a decision, something will be released that could make you regret your decision. It is better to buy and get to using what is known than waiting forever for that unknown, magical device.

See above, I think we're more or less on the same page?

 

[Closingracer]

I wouldn't say it stopped in the 2000's. There is a big difference between the 2016 and 2017 models. I'm not talking about processor speeds. Those numbers stopped growing in the 2000's because other things became more important to processing faster. RAM speed, Bus speed, HD speed all matter. With processors, it become cores and threads. The more cores you have and more threads you can run, the slower you can run them and achieve better performance than previous generations. For mobile devices, that means longer run times. For the 2017, it means cooler temps. Which is the main reason I spent more and went with the it instead of the 2016. Well, aside from the faster bus speeds, etc.

You're right, though - Kaby Lake processors are already obsolete. As new processors are released, there are a couple more developed getting ready for production.

Step away from Laptops/PCs for a minute and look at phones for example. The 7 of 2016 has a processor with 4 cores. Two designed for non-intensive processing use and two for performance. Both can't be used at the same time so you effectively have a 2 core processor depending on needs. That changed in 2017, one year later with the 8 and X, where the A11 Bionic can use all cores at the same time. One year later - big difference.

Kay lake isn't obsolete when you consider some of the 8th Gen cpus are basically kaby lake in disguise

 

[Closingracer]

70's? Really. Personal computers, and I mean affordable personal computers, really got started in the 1980's. Before that they were for hobbyists and people with $$$. The Apple IIe stayed the same for a long time. During the late 80's, all through the 90's and into the 00's it made sense to keep up with technological changes. Gamer still have to do that to a certain extent.

But for what most people do, a MBP could be overkill.

Personally I opted for the 2015 over the 2016 in May 2016 because I could get it new in box, save big $$$ doing so and get what I wanted. Having a number of USB2 and USB3 devices meant I did not want dongles or hubs to keep connected.

What cinched it for me is I tried the 2016 keyboard. I'm not a great fan of any Apple keyboard but I can survive on the 2015 or the chick-let keyboard I have connected to my MP right now. I prefer a full throw, mechanical keyboard with tactile feedback But the keyboard of the 2016 (and now 2017) did not provide the responsiveness and feel desired for my fingers.

As I told a friend so many years ago, you can wait and wait and wait and just after you make a decision, something will be released that could make you regret your decision. It is better to buy and get to using what is known than waiting forever for that unknown, magical device.

I for one agree with this with the exception I do like the keyboard in the 2016 and 2017 MacBook pro. I hated it on the retina MacBook and the fact it only has one port. With the 4 on my 15 inch I'm fine with since at most I'll use 3. One for my Macbook to charge, another for my iPad and another for my Note 8 all which can be connected by USB C. Haven't needed a USB C adapter either. Yeah if I was looking for a laptop now I could wait for a minor spec bump but it's overkill and I rather get it now

 

[ruarmani]

You can think about this, I still have a flawless working 2007 white plastic MacBook, battery is dead but the laptop works great, that is a 11 years old laptop, cooling got better, screens got better, processors and memory technology is better, assembly and production lines got better, I think the 2017 will do ok.
In 2007 there were no forums to complain about the OCD issues that many people complain about and most of them go thru 20 returns-exchange looking for the perfect one. You would buy a Mac and use the hell out of the computer for 7+ years. Now every click and bait site will be watching reddit to start the next Mac"gate" as soon as they can.

There were forums in 2007. I remember very well how I was reading these forums as I was going to buy iMac 24 inch and then macbook pro 2008 a year later. There was a lot of fuzz about reflective screens, almost all people were upset about it. Everybody was worrying about iMac reliability and our 2007 iMac is still going. I only changed the HDD to SSD and dvd drive stopped working. I don't know, I think it is hard to say, everyone's experience is different.

 

[TonyK]

Sure there's differences other than processor speeds. But who would honestly feel the difference between a 2016 SSD and a 2017? Probably only if transferring massive files all day, and this is about a general use computer here. The same goes double for ram speeds & bus speeds. But there aren't any more cores between a 2016 machine and a 2017. True to say that could be a difference which will make the 2018 machines worth it over all that came before, but we aren't there yet. Realistically, for general usage, a 2015 can do all a 2016 or 2017 can do. The major tradeoff is a bit more fatness and weight. Perhaps you'll get an extra hour of web browsing, but 9 vs 10 hours, is that really such a big deal? This is different to the general churn of technology. Yes there will always be something better, but its no longer the case that will happen every generation. Haswell - Kabylake is a period of minimal difference. A bit more efficiency, a bit less heat, a bit more battery life a tad more performance. Not a world apart, even cumulatively to be honest.

Yes and if there's a parallel with intel chips it'll be 7th gen to 8th gen. Again, when Coffee Lake appears, you're pretty well as behind with a Kaby Lake as you are with a Haswell.

See above, I think we're more or less on the same page?

It sounds like it. I was there for the start of the personal computing era and fully remember the buzz around the Apple IIe and the Radio Shack Model 1. Then their Model 2 and finally their Model 3.

Personally I've owned an Osborne 1, an Atari 800XL (not to be confused with the original Atari 800), two IBM PC Jrs, one with an expansion case, my wife owned an Apple IIe, some home built systems, a Dell desktop tower and then she convinced me to move to Apple. Daily I work on a Windows 7 system but my preferences lean Apple.

For most things, processor speeds do not reflect into my thinking. We'll have to see post-Meltdown/Spectre on what happens with CPUs, GPUs and the like and how securing them impacts system performance.

I for one agree with this with the exception I do like the keyboard in the 2016 and 2017 MacBook pro. I hated it on the retina MacBook and the fact it only has one port. With the 4 on my 15 inch I'm fine with since at most I'll use 3. One for my Macbook to charge, another for my iPad and another for my Note 8 all which can be connected by USB C. Haven't needed a USB C adapter either. Yeah if I was looking for a laptop now I could wait for a minor spec bump but it's overkill and I rather get it now

I waited some time just so I could type on a 2016. The USB-C standard coupled with the feel of the keyboard helped me cement the decision to get the new 2015 in box. Not sure why my decision would be today if I were looking for a new system and it has been 7 or 8 months since purchasing the 2015 rMBP. It would take time and a lot of research to make sure I was comfortable with the decision.

There were forums in 2007. I remember very well how I was reading these forums as I was going to buy iMac 24 inch and then macbook pro 2008 a year later. There was a lot of fuzz about reflective screens, almost all people were upset about it. Everybody was worrying about iMac reliability and our 2007 iMac is still going. I only changed the HDD to SSD and dvd drive stopped working. I don't know, I think it is hard to say, everyone's experience is different.

Before forums we had BBSs and I fully remember talking on them. Heck, I still remember when people started modifying their 5 1/4 floppy disks so they could flip them and write on both sides to go from 180KB to 360KB per disk. Yes, dirt and I are on first name basis. My dad knows dirt's father and was there before I was, having taken a Motorola gaming system, modifying it and using his IBM Selectric typewriter for a teletype. He was old school and did things I never could or wanted to do.

 

[OriginalAppleGuy]

For those who seem so up in arms about my comment about the 70's, you might be surprised to learn that computers actually existed before then. Go read up on the history of computing. Before the "PC" we used dumb terminals and modems to talk to the big boys. (Anyone ever build an ADM-3A?)

The last MacBook Pro I bought was the late 2008 and I bought it custom with the faster HD. I buy, and suggest anyone else to buy, the latest they can afford. It helps delay the next purchase. Truth is, my 2008 still works fine. It's just slower than I'd like, doesn't have newer technology like AirDrop (really missed that for sending files back and forth between my other iDevices), doesn't unlock with my watch, and isn't capable of running the newer operating systems. I should get longer use out of this, than had I bought the 2015. And anyone else will too. Now, if it was a Win10 PC? No way - unless you get a business class machine, not going to last you more than 3-4 years, tops.

@TonyK - Ah yes, I remember the BBS's. When 1200 baud modems came out, WOW they were fast! And modifying the 5 1/4" Floppies to write both sides. Glad someone figured that out as they were expensive. We had the Apple ][ at home while the school had the Atari 800's. They didn't compare. The Apple was far better to me.

 

[curtoise]

There were forums in 2007. I remember very well how I was reading these forums as I was going to buy iMac 24 inch and then macbook pro 2008 a year later. There was a lot of fuzz about reflective screens, almost all people were upset about it. Everybody was worrying about iMac reliability and our 2007 iMac is still going. I only changed the HDD to SSD and dvd drive stopped working. I don't know, I think it is hard to say, everyone's experience is different.

There were forums yes but not at the level of toxicity as we have them now.

 

[TonyK]

For those who seem so up in arms about my comment about the 70's, you might be surprised to learn that computers actually existed before then. Go read up on the history of computing. Before the "PC" we used dumb terminals and modems to talk to the big boys. (Anyone ever build an ADM-3A?)

My first exposure to computers that I remember well was working on an IBM 360 connected via 150 baud modem on a 3741 teletype system.

I was part of our school system's first computer class ever and that would have been 1975.

The key part of my reply above was affordable home computers. As indicated, before the 1980's they were mostly for hobbyists, who built them from kits or who had deep pockets. Then around 1982/83 things started getting better. While Atari had the 400 and 800 models, they weren't sleek, compact or enticing. The 800XL changed that and also dropped the price.

I also remember the CoCo 80, the Tandy Model 1000A (owned the 1000A and even put a 20MB HD in it) and remember writing some of my own software. Still writing software but for a living these days using Java.

@TonyK - Ah yes, I remember the BBS's. When 1200 baud modems came out, WOW they were fast! And modifying the 5 1/4" Floppies to write both sides. Glad someone figured that out as they were expensive. We had the Apple ][ at home while the school had the Atari 800's. They didn't compare. The Apple was far better to me.

1200 baud? My first modem was a Hayes 300 baud in a all metal box. Had to get the older Atari interface part to connect it to the Atari 800XL.

But my first computer was an Ohio Scientific kit computer. Someone else built it and I bought it from them. Dang thing over header too easily, even with a fan blowing on it.

There are times I miss the Atari 800XL. It was a neat little system. Between it and the Commodore 64, I preferred the Atari system. One of the game cartridges had a hidden key combination that unlocked a level. I never found it. Our cat did walking across the keyboard. I played that level as long as I could and never got back to it. LOL

Back to the OP's question, only the OP can answer if the 2017 is bad based on their needs. They can go to an Apple store or Best Buy and play with the keyboard and the TB and then make an informed decision.

 

[ruarmani]

There were forums yes but not at the level of toxicity as we have them now.

You SO right. Now it is at the point when it is too much information. Makes people more confused. I was thinking the other day, I used to buy stuff without thinking too much and it was fine. Now, every time I want to buy something, I read/watch feedback's, reviews, etc. When I decided to buy a new MBP I was blown away how many reviews I could watch on youtube.....

 

[tkwolf]

Some people here would always negate the notion when someone raises the subject regarding the latest keyboard issues, saying that not everyone has it. The question is longevity. For a $2000 laptop, keyboard should be the least of my issue. I may not have a problem with it for the first few months or for the fist year, but indeed what about 2 years into usage? 3 years? I don't live in the US so great warranties aren't a safe fallback for me. I'd have to shell out $700 to replace one key for a design flaw that I never caused as a consumer. That's a bummer. I hope they release a new generation or a more durable one. Better yet, if they can't perfect it, just go back to the old keyboard for now. That one could last years without much issue.

 

[Fishrrman]

Mainsail wrote:
"Does anyone on this form know if a silicone keyboard cover helps to reduce the chance of keyboard failure on the new MBP? If the issue is associated with dust and debris getting between/under the keys, I would think a cover would make a big difference."

The problem with using keyboard covers on the new MacBook Pro's is that there is so little clearance between the keys and the display surface when closed, the keyboard cover may make contact with the display surface and damage the very thin coating that's ON that surface.

You might end up seeing "keyboard impressions" in your display.

 

[Mainsail]

Mainsail wrote:
"Does anyone on this form know if a silicone keyboard cover helps to reduce the chance of keyboard failure on the new MBP? If the issue is associated with dust and debris getting between/under the keys, I would think a cover would make a big difference."

The problem with using keyboard covers on the new MacBook Pro's is that there is so little clearance between the keys and the display surface when closed, the keyboard cover may make contact with the display surface and damage the very thin coating that's ON that surface.

You might end up seeing "keyboard impressions" in your display.

Thanks for the reply. I hadn't considered damage to the display from using a keyboard cover. Sounds like the cure could be worse than the disease. Ill take a look at some reviews of KB covers and see if users mention a problem.

That said.....I am still curious if a KB cover would prevent or significantly reduce the chance of the type of failures many MB and MBP customers are reporting.

 

[ruarmani]

I was pointed to this: "The 2017 MacBook Pro keyboards have a rubber gasket beneath the keys so no crumbs or debris get stuck underneath the keys. That was the main cause of the 2016 keyboard problems, stuff would fall through the small gap and cause them to have issues. Not possible anymore since the rubber stops anything from falling there."

 

[nyy13251]

Thanks everyone for the responses. Great reading all the thoughts. I am keeping my fingers crossed something gets released in June. The site had a rumors today about possible updates to Mac/Mac book pro's, so we shall see if anything happens and if they fix the keyboard. If I had to guess, I will probably go with the current MacBook pro and hope for no issues!

 

[curtoise]

You SO right. Now it is at the point when it is too much information. Makes people more confused. I was thinking the other day, I used to buy stuff without thinking too much and it was fine. Now, every time I want to buy something, I read/watch feedback's, reviews, etc. When I decided to buy a new MBP I was blown away how many reviews I could watch on youtube.....

It is sad, you don't know what is true or not, paid fake reviews, articles just for clicks (ads), I started to unsubscribe from everything lately, too much negativity, too much toxicity, it is not like a MacBook will be bad or good if I don't read a forum or Reddit, I like to experience the laptops or any hardware myself without having to go thru pages and pages of toxicity online.
I remember buying my first Mac and being amazed at the computer and software and I loved discovering everything myself, now everything is dissected, scrutinized, faked and destroyed online for paid clicks or negativity, I'm so tired of that.

 

[TonyK]

when looking at reviews, I tend to throw out 1 star and 5 star reviews and absolutely reviews without comments.

Then I look at the reviews that are left and read people's experiences. Look at when the review was created, giving more weight to newer/fresher reviews. I query multiple sources if possible to try and make an informed decision.

Sometimes I've had to resort to looking at a reviewer's history to see how they reviewed other items just to try and weed out paid reviewers or reviewers who like nothing.

It gets tedious at times but with the cost of some items it has become necessary. Especially in an environment where it seems users are just an extension of the QA department for businesses. This is not directed to Apple though it has felt that way at times with software updates. There have been too many software titles in the past where you could tell it was a BETA release but they were selling it and hoping the user base would test it for them.

 

[kschendel]

For those who seem so up in arms about my comment about the 70's, you might be surprised to learn that computers actually existed before then. Go read up on the history of computing. Before the "PC" we used dumb terminals and modems to talk to the big boys. (Anyone ever build an ADM-3A?)

I think we had Hazeltine H1000's before we got any ADM's. (1000's? 1500's? now I'm not sure. Very early Hazeltine though.) The Hazeltine had a remarkably long travel, no effort, rattly keyboard that took some getting used to, but once your fingers had it figured out, you could type a bazillion wpm for hours on it. I started out on a TTY model 33 so any screen terminal was a huge step up. Heck, the decwriter 300's were a dream come true compared to the KSR's. I worked a lot from home, and ended up shelling out $700 in 1976 dollars for an honest-to-Christmas, 1200 baud, Vadic acoustic coupler. It was the envy of the department for nearly a year until someone started whispering about the possibility of 2400 baud...

Anyway ... to the OP, I'm typing this on a 15" late 2013 rMBP and aside from putting 16 Gb RAM in it, it's a base model. It does all of the office-y things I need it to do just fine. So I think you will find that any current model will be more than fast enough performance wise.

 

[Sebastian79]

I was pointed to this: "The 2017 MacBook Pro keyboards have a rubber gasket beneath the keys so no crumbs or debris get stuck underneath the keys. That was the main cause of the 2016 keyboard problems, stuff would fall through the small gap and cause them to have issues. Not possible anymore since the rubber stops anything from falling there."

I am interested to hear more about the validity/invalidity of this claim

 

[1rottenapple]

There were forums in 2007. I remember very well how I was reading these forums as I was going to buy iMac 24 inch and then macbook pro 2008 a year later. There was a lot of fuzz about reflective screens, almost all people were upset about it. Everybody was worrying about iMac reliability and our 2007 iMac is still going. I only changed the HDD to SSD and dvd drive stopped working. I don't know, I think it is hard to say, everyone's experience is different.

There were forums back in 2007. I've been on macrumors since 2004! College days! Wow.