Are these liquid pools in sharp cut canyons on Mars??

Discussion in 'Community Discussion' started by Dubdrifter, Nov 30, 2018.

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  1. Dubdrifter, Nov 30, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 3, 2018

    Dubdrifter Suspended

    Dubdrifter

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    #1
    Browsing over the surface on Google Mars recently came upon this series of sharp cut canyons which on closer inspection appear to show signs of being flooded with brown/rusty liquid pools(doesn't look to be shadow) ..... Is this possibly surface water (tinged with iron deposits?) collected periodically along the channel? Let me know what you think.

    https://image.ibb.co/iOOjc0/Mars-Canyon ... -11-16.png

    https://image.ibb.co/jOK1Pf/Mars-Canyon ... -11-16.png

    Maybe this will prove an excellent new prospective site for one of the first Martian colonies.

    The coordinates of this discovery are: 20 degrees 31' 52.76" N
    123 degrees 27' 00.09" E

    Check it out on Google Mars for higher resolution imaging.

    Regards Dubdrifter

    [Discussion started on The Politics Forum UK (Mind Zone) 16/11/2018 ..... but thought a more International audience might want to comment - either here or there - if you want to pick up on views expressed so far]
     
  2. ChrisA macrumors G4

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    #2
    Liquid water can't exist on the surface of Mars. The atmospheric pressure is only 0.6% of Earth's sea level pressure. It is nearly a vacuum. Liquid water would either freeze or sublimate away. So whatever you see, it can't be liquid water.
     
  3. mobilehaathi macrumors G3

    mobilehaathi

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    #3
    Why?
     
  4. Huntn macrumors demi-god

    Huntn

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    It’s hard for me to tell what it is.
     
  5. Dubdrifter thread starter Suspended

    Dubdrifter

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    #5
    Why not a shadow? If you expand the second image on an ipad and follow the contours of the canyon in the centre ..... if the dark areas were shadow, they wouldn’t be broken periodically, smoothed and rounded at the edges.


    That’s what I was led to understand by scientists. Any idea what liquid it could be to tolerate the conditions scientists dictate exist there?

    Guess the options are:

    1)It’s not a liquid anymore ..... but mineral/simple algae staining from a period water could exist on the surface .... which may have etched the feature.

    The algae might have survived the journey embedded in a meteor rock fragment from Earth.

    2)A subsurface oozing supply, possibly seasonal that gets stripped away slower than scientists predicted.

    3)It’s some other liquid immune to stripping .... any suggestions which candidates likely ?

    4)Surface water science/triple point principles behave differently on other planets to scientific predictions - Wouldn’t be the first time a simple observation totally destroyed a scientific theory!
     
  6. mobilehaathi macrumors G3

    mobilehaathi

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    #6
    Why?
     
  7. AngerDanger macrumors 601

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    #7
    I've been petitioning the DSM to add Delusional Aquaphasia for a while, and each new thread really helps my case.
     
  8. Scepticalscribe, Dec 4, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018

    Scepticalscribe macrumors Westmere

    Scepticalscribe

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    #8
    I think I know what you mean.

    Nevertheless, should you feel in need assistance in your campaign, do feel free to call on me for support.
     
  9. yaxomoxay macrumors 68040

    yaxomoxay

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    #9
    The path that leads to the solution to your question is in the first image you published. Hephaestus Fossae.
    That is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hephaestus_Fossae
     
  10. millerj123 macrumors 68000

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    #10
    I’ve dumped this response three times so far. Dubdrifter, if you are seriously interested in scientific discovery, please don’t continue to look at grainy photographs and apply dubious speculation as to their origins.

    In your last thread, you were interested if there might be water on the moon, ostensibly to use when we attempt to colonize. What is the actual point of this speculation? If it boils down to “can we colonize Mars?”, that’s different than “is there liquid water on Mars”. What are you after?
     
  11. mobilehaathi macrumors G3

    mobilehaathi

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    #11
    Voice of reason or replitian disinformation campaign?
     
  12. millerj123 macrumors 68000

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    #12
    I’ll never ‘fess up...
     
  13. Dubdrifter thread starter Suspended

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    #13
    Thanks for the link, Yaxomoxay ...... interesting how extensive, varied and deep some of these water cut geological features are on Mars.
    The Amenthes Quadrangle link mentions magnesium carbonate deposits detected in the Isidis Basin by the Mars Reconnaissance Rover(MRO) suggesting some water deposits were not too acidic in that area.
    Not sure about the canyons I highlighted in this other area, which seem cut sharper than most, through very white substrate (any Martian geologist hazard a guess what this substrate is?) - Note the brown stuff in the bottom of the canyons hasn’t left any staining down the walls. Wonder if there are similar examples on Earth.
    The resolution of the pics seems good to me, as have been all my picture sources referenced in discussions on here. If my speculation is dubious, it should be easy to refute with higher resolution images and reasoned argument of an alternative theory on what we are looking at here. You have offered neither .... but it’s early days.

    If you have access to high resolution shots of this area .... preferably taken at different times of the year ..... maybe we can see clearly what this dark colouration is and dispel speculation.
    I have limited resources, no access to fancy equipment, and just try and start a discussion on something that interests me ..... as clearly as I can see it.
    If you have a clearer image, I’m sure people will appreciate it and your explanation as to what we are looking at .... All are welcome to contribute here ..... there are no agendas ..... just sharing knowledge.

    If this speculation has substance in these two discussions, then it could open up new exciting locations for colonisation of both our Moon and Mars ...... Being stuck at the poles might be alright for some ..... others might want to take drilling rigs and source water wherever there has been a volcanic eruption - or to areas like this where there may be a ready source of spring water oozing out the ground before evaporation kicks in.
    I can’t understand why people on here are so negative throwing a few interesting ideas around.:rolleyes:
     
  14. mobilehaathi macrumors G3

    mobilehaathi

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    #14
    Look, you consistently ignore reasonable explanations and counter-argument. That’s why people react with eye-rolls, jokes, and negativity.

    I’d ask if you saw this:

    But you clearly did, as you responded (emphasis mine):
    This language you’re using actually reveals quite a lot about the way you think.

    You then go on to list all these elaborate alternate theories, while ignoring the obvious one: they are shadows. But you’ve already decided they couldn’t possibly be shadows based on nothing but your own arrogance.

    It makes people think you’re not actually interested in anything other than advancing your own pet theories, based on nothing but uninformed speculation.
     
  15. Dubdrifter thread starter Suspended

    Dubdrifter

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    #15
    I take your point ...... but if you look at the second image I presented in the OP and expand it slightly on an ipad and look carefully at what you refer to as ‘shadow’ .... not only does it change greatly in intensity down the length of the channel following the same orientation ..... but you can also see (even at these resolutions) that the ‘dark areas’ hug the contours of the depression neatly, as a liquid would do under gravity ..... and because the eroded substrate is very white, you can even see the ‘shallows’ where these suspected ‘liquid pools’ aren’t very deep.
    Which is very odd ‘shadow’ behaviour .... even in these circumstances.

    ..... however, it could ‘possibly’ be staining of different intensities .......Yaxomoxay’s link led to this very interesting streaking: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_slope_streak#/media/File:Slope_Streaks_in_Acheron_Fossae_on_Mars.jpg
    .... or some other idea ..... pitch it and we can discuss it.:D
     
  16. Scepticalscribe macrumors Westmere

    Scepticalscribe

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    #16
    This.

    Under the conditions that currently exist on the surface of Mars, liquid water cannot exist.

    Agree completely and very well said.

    I think that I can make a prediction to the effect that his thread will take the form of individuals explaining to the OP that the conditions for liquid water to exist on the surface of Mars do not exist, only for him to refuse to accept this over the course of seven or so pages.
     
  17. T'hain Esh Kelch macrumors 603

    T'hain Esh Kelch

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    #17
    They would not survive A. without water, and B. in a near vacuum, and C. dust storms. And the current estimates for liquid water on Mars' surface is 3.8 billion years ago. No, you won't see algae remnants of this magnitude from back then, and most certainly not colored stains.

    Or they might not be algae based on pointless speculation.

    Or.. Get this... They might be shadows.

    Leftover oil from subterranean drilling by the native anthropomorphized lizard species that resides there.

    They behave differently yes, because of different conditions. There are not different physics on other planets.

    Indeed, but geological sciences has not have such a thing happen in hundreds of years, because, well, we understand physics, geology and time quite well.

    You are using a reverse Occam's razor argument.
     
  18. yaxomoxay macrumors 68040

    yaxomoxay

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    #18
    The problem, as I see it, is exactly in this.
    • We are talking about known geology, albeit of a different planet.
    • The ideas don't have to be interesting, they have to be realistic at minimum. A basic knowledge of the Martian environment would lead to the easy conclusion that flowing surface water is an impossibility.
    • There is frozen water (ice) at the caps, however this still doesn't make water flowing as it does on Earth.
    • It is possible to observe clouds on Mars, caused by frozen water, as photographed in a stunning rover picture: https://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mer/gallery/press/opportunity/20041213a/merb_sol291_clouds-B313R1.jpg
    Further reading,
    • The Surface of Mars, by Michael Carr
    • Mars: An Introduction to its Interior, Surface and Atmosphere, by Nadine Barlow
    • Mars Owners' Workshop Manual (I actually like the Owner's Workshop Manual series)
    • A Traveler's Guide to Mars, by William Hartman
    Mars missions to follow or review,
     
  19. ActionableMango macrumors G3

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    #19
    The "liquid" looks dark, like coffee. If a rover discovers Martian coffee, I suspect @Scepticalscribe will be the first to Mars.
     
  20. Scepticalscribe macrumors Westmere

    Scepticalscribe

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    #20
    Only if the Martian highlands resemble those of Ethiopia.
     
  21. Dubdrifter thread starter Suspended

    Dubdrifter

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    #21
    I get the THEORY why people say it’s not water - I just want to fit a logical explanation to the pictures.

    Can’t quite believe people are still calling these dark areas ‘shadow’ .... for the reasons I gave in Post 15 ...... still looking for an explanation other than ‘water’ or ‘shadow’.

    As the surface has been well studied, (thanks for the links and book references, Yaxomoxay .... will browse links in more detail over next few days), .... I’d imagine these very interesting channels have too ..... so presumably there must be a series of close up shots of this area taken at other times ..... maybe that will clarify the issue when comparing the image data ..... and confirm for those convinced of the ‘shadow’ explanation.
    Lizard digging Oil Theorist T’hain Esh Kelch is ruling out any form of algae staining ..... even resilient strains that may have evolved in the harsher Martian climate.

    Yaxomoxay’s rover picture of Martian clouds was interesting ..... if only these clouds would condensate at night on the solar panels again and wash away the storm dust, then Opportunity rover might once again kick into life.

    You mentioned these clouds are “caused by frozen water” ..... Sublimation from ice to cloud? Wonder if there is a video of astronauts on the Moon or a rover experiment illustrating Triple Point like this in action?
    Is Opportunity close to the poles? ..... I read it uncovered ice just below the surface at one location.

    It surprises me water vapour clouds can exist on Mars when the conditions for liquid water are supposed to be so impossible.
    In my other discussion, Red Tomato posted a picture of Mars showing geyser blow holes on the surface with water erosion channels radiating out 360 degrees. Be good to know if these are fairly recent features, if so it suggests water can flow on the surface for long enough to cut these channels ...... so maybe, if liquid is oozing from the sources I’ve highlighted, maybe active erosion seasonally is still ongoing? ...... Is it possible instant boiling doesn’t happen and solar stripping whisks it away more slowly than scientist predict and it has a chance to form similar wispy clouds as shown?
     
  22. Tigger11 macrumors 6502

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    #22
    A last post on Macrumors before I head south for the cruise. As discussed in the other thread, at the pressure currently existing on Mars (0.092 PSI or 0.636 kPA), liquid water exists from melting at just over 0 degrees celsius and then turns to water vapor way before it reaches 7 degrees celsius which is our temperature point for 1% or 0.147 PSI. The PSI point for 0 degrees is 0.088 PSI so at Mars pressure we are really close to all water as it heats up sublimating and never hitting liquid form. Any altitude at all on Mars, is going to lower your pressure, and literally you are 4/1000 from sublimation at Mars pressure at "sea level". Yaxomoxay had some excellent ideas for further research for you, Michael's book in particular is really good. There is alot of water on Mars, its just not flowing around or setting in pools like your mind thinks everytime you look at a picture on the internet.
    -Tig
     
  23. yaxomoxay macrumors 68040

    yaxomoxay

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    #23
    Theory? Yours is a theory based on a few grainy pictures that show huge canyons and shadows.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_on_Mars

    Read the first paragraph of the above link, then read all the document, then read all of the sources.
     
  24. mobilehaathi macrumors G3

    mobilehaathi

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    Oh crikey, an “it’s just a theory” warrior.

    How very unsurprising.
     
  25. AngerDanger macrumors 601

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    #25
    Gonna be honest, I couldn't care less about surface water until we do something about those goddamn giant beasts!

    biggerproblems.jpg
     
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