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Arguing pilots fly 150 miles past runway

sushi said:
Thanks for the info. Good news!
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As MooneyFlyer stated, I think a lot of recorders are doing the 2 hours already. I just dug a manual out, and my recorder does two for the ambient channels, and 30 minutes for the headset and radio channels. So unless the crew intentionally erased the CVR (which would open a whole other discussion), perhaps we'll find out what happened. Or not - Northwest has an older Airbus fleet. Whatever the case - it'll be interesting to see how this plays out. :eek:

Interesting week in aviation, that's for sure. At least nobody was hurt.
 
About 8 years ago I got an OUI (Operating Under Influence), as part of my conviction I had to take an Alcohol awareness class. Education on what alcohol is and does to you when you consume it. The reason that is relevant to this is what I learned during that course.

There was a pilot who was a recovering alcoholic, he hadn’t touched a drink in twenty years. One day being stressed he had the flight attendant serve him one cocktail after he got on a flight from (I think it was...) New York to Los Angeles.** The next conscious moment he remembers was being in a meeting at a rehab center in Las Vegas, two weeks later. He obviously didn’t stop at one drink. But the real problem was he was the pilot on that flight. A full 747 people traveling for Christmas. How was that possible? That’s when I learned that these planes for I don’t know how many years have always been navigated by on board computers, Auto-pilot. That’s almost every flight you ever get on. The pilots take off and land.

I don’t know if it’s comforting to know this but the pilots are not likely awake or paying any attention during long flights of any flights you are on. Hopefully the one I was made aware of is the only one who was drunk.

As far the timing goes, I was on a flight from Norfolk VA to Las Vegas that arrived two hours early due to an unexpected tail wind. It’s not at all unreasonable for the flight crew to ignore the time delay thinking it may be just weather conditions slowing the flight. They being aware that the pilots often slept on long flights probably didn’t want to wake the poor babies.

But think about that next time you get on a flight. You probably aren’t the only one who can’t wait for that plane to reach cruising altitude so you can fluff up a pillow and get some sleep. The pilot only has one other task before he is doing the same thing. He has to press that button that says “Auto Control.”

**I asked about that too. It was after he was in the air of a plane he was flying.
 
^^^ Hmmm. To begin with, autopilots have been around since the 20s. To take it a step further, the autopilot is mandatory between 29,000 and 41,000 feet.

To say that it's likely that the pilots are asleep on any long flight is completely incorrect. Sleeping is the exception to the rule. And when it does happen, one pilot will monitor the aircraft while the other naps. Two pilots asleep is always unintentional. Even if nothing else is going on, a given airplane crossing the county has to communicate with ATC every ten to fifteen minutes anyway. Point is, it's not like the pilots take off, take a nap, then wake up to land.

Of course, napping of any form should be completely unacceptable. The solution is to fix the rest rules so the pilots don't feel the need to nap while in flight. Right now their logic is that it's better to take a power nap in cruise than inadvertently fall asleep during approach and landing. Trouble is, changing the rest rules is absolutely the last thing the airlines want. The FAA doesn't change unless there's pressure to change, so while it sucks that these things are happening, it's good that the media is being alerted to the fatigue problems in the industry. Hopefully it'll apply enough pressure for changes - real changes - to be made.
 
william sire said:
About 8 years ago I got an OUI (Operating Under Influence), as part of my conviction I had to take an Alcohol awareness class. Education on what alcohol is and does to you when you consume it. The reason that is relevant to this is what I learned during that course.

There was a pilot who was a recovering alcoholic, he hadn’t touched a drink in twenty years. One day being stressed he had the flight attendant serve him one cocktail after he got on a flight from (I think it was...) New York to Los Angeles.** The next conscious moment he remembers was being in a meeting at a rehab center in Las Vegas, two weeks later. He obviously didn’t stop at one drink. But the real problem was he was the pilot on that flight. A full 747 people traveling for Christmas. How was that possible? That’s when I learned that these planes for I don’t know how many years have always been navigated by on board computers, Auto-pilot. That’s almost every flight you ever get on. The pilots take off and land.

I don’t know if it’s comforting to know this but the pilots are not likely awake or paying any attention during long flights of any flights you are on. Hopefully the one I was made aware of is the only one who was drunk.

As far the timing goes, I was on a flight from Norfolk VA to Las Vegas that arrived two hours early due to an unexpected tail wind. It’s not at all unreasonable for the flight crew to ignore the time delay thinking it may be just weather conditions slowing the flight. They being aware that the pilots often slept on long flights probably didn’t want to wake the poor babies.

But think about that next time you get on a flight. You probably aren’t the only one who can’t wait for that plane to reach cruising altitude so you can fluff up a pillow and get some sleep. The pilot only has one other task before he is doing the same thing. He has to press that button that says “Auto Control.”

**I asked about that too. It was after he was in the air of a plane he was flying.
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Are pilots allowed any alcoholic drinks at all? If not, why the hell did the flight attendant serve him one?
 
Wirelessly posted (Nokia 5800 Tube XpressMusic : Mozilla/5.0 (SymbianOS/9.4; U; Series60/5.0 Nokia5800d-1/21.0.101; Profile/MIDP-2.1 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 ) AppleWebKit/413 (KHTML, like Gecko) Safari/413)

Gregg2 said:
Distracted by a heated discussion over airline policy to the point that they ignored the control tower trying to "hand off" their flight to another jurisdiction? I don't think so. The voice recorder will tell all.
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PC-using Pilot: "So......what do you think about the new MacBook? Pretty lame, no?"


Mac-using co-pilot: "I'm going to smack you back to Whore island."


PC: "Oh #*@&, heeeeeeere we go....."



See how easily this could happen?
 
yg17 said:
Are pilots allowed any alcoholic drinks at all? If not, why the hell did the flight attendant serve him one?
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I don’t have any answer to that. I’m only reciting what I was told. This was related to me directly from the pilot.

dmr727 said:
^^^ Hmmm. To begin with, autopilots have been around since the 20s. To take it a step further, the autopilot is mandatory between 29,000 and 41,000 feet.
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You know that, but is that commonly known to the general public? Until I read your post I wasn’t aware that autopilots were in use in the twenty’s. I doubt that it would be well known in the general public or that such a sophisticated technology wold have been first created in 1912.

To say that it's likely that the pilots are asleep on any long flight is completely incorrect. Sleeping is the exception to the rule. And when it does happen, one pilot will monitor the aircraft while the other naps. Two pilots asleep is always unintentional. Even if nothing else is going on, a given airplane crossing the county has to communicate with ATC every ten to fifteen minutes anyway. Point is, it's not like the pilots take off, take a nap, then wake up to land.
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You may have misinterpreted what I was saying. I doubt that a great many people in the general population have any knowledge that either pilot slept on flights. Or that the aircraft ever reached it’s destination unattended. After a story like this becomes news it might change ones previous perspectives about traveling by air.

Of course, napping of any form should be completely unacceptable. The solution is to fix the rest rules so the pilots don't feel the need to nap while in flight. Right now their logic is that it's better to take a power nap in cruise than inadvertently fall asleep during approach and landing. Trouble is, changing the rest rules is absolutely the last thing the airlines want. The FAA doesn't change unless there's pressure to change, so while it sucks that these things are happening, it's good that the media is being alerted to the fatigue problems in the industry. Hopefully it'll apply enough pressure for changes - real changes - to be made.
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Well I wasn’t going all those places. I was just pointing out that unbeknownst to the general public autopilots were doing more flying than you likely realized.
 
sushi said:
What is the recording limit for a CVR. Thirty minutes right. So we may never know what happened during that time frame.
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Two hours is the limit, according to one former pilot on TV. But, this one was only the 30 minute model.

yg17 said:
So if they fly an hour past MSP, by the time they turn around and land, the last hour recorded will be the hour after they realized their mistake. Maybe we'll hear them making up a story though.
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Well, the conclusion is correct, because theirs was only good for the last 30 minutes.

dmr727 said:
I was just looking at my wife's FAR/FC, specifically 121.359, and the good news is that the FAA will mandate that it be two hours by April 7, 2012. That doesn't help here, but at least they're moving forward.
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They might move a little faster now!
 
yg17 said:
Are pilots allowed any alcoholic drinks at all? If not, why the hell did the flight attendant serve him one?
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Not in the US, no. I have no idea why a flight attendant would serve him one.

william sire said:
You may have misinterpreted what I was saying.
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It was this comment that made me point out that sleeping in the cockpit isn't the norm:

I don’t know if it’s comforting to know this but the pilots are not likely awake or paying any attention during long flights of any flights you are on.
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Anyway, it seems one of the pilots is saying that not only did they not sleep, but they weren't arguing either. I wonder what his explanation will be?
 
yg17 said:
So are you implying that in other countries, they can? Do you know which countries so I know which countries I should never fly to? :p
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I've heard about some places, such as France, where the pilots will have a glass of wine with their dinner. I can't confirm that, though. :)
 
For those that want to know, here's the good stuff.

Flight:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/NWA188/history/20091021/2135Z/KSAN/KMSP

LiveATC.net feed for KMSP during the arrival

7pm - 7:30pm
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kmsp/KMSP-App-Oct-22-2009-0100Z.mp3

7:30pm - 8pm (15minutes in, you should start to hear them)
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kmsp/KMSP-App-Oct-22-2009-0130Z.mp3

8pm - 8:30pm (they're about 20DME out by this time)
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kmsp/KMSP-App-Oct-22-2009-0200Z.mp3

Enjoy.

BL.
 
yg17 said:
So are you implying that in other countries, they can?
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Without making this discussion too political the rules aren't always applied as strictly in all countries in the world as they are in Europe and the US ;).
 
WSJ is reporting that the pilots were distracted by a laptops in the cockpit.

WSJ.com said:
The pilots of Northwest Flight 188 have told federal investigators that a bathroom break, chatting with a flight attendant in the cockpit and then taking out their laptops to discuss work schedules created distractions that led to more than an hour of radio silence with air-traffic controllers, according to people familiar with the statements.

The sequence of events laid out by the pilots in interviews with the National Transportation Safety Board on Sunday, these people said, refutes the notion that the pilots nodded off at the controls. Instead, the pilots' statements highlight how a combination of seemingly mundane human factors can combine to create major distractions and mental lapses by cockpit crews. In this case, the jetliner stayed on autopilot and cruised past its destination airport by more than 100 miles.
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http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125658134147008625.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLTopStories
 
jecapaga said:
I guess this is better than sleeping.
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I disagree. Fatigue is a physiological state that can be attributed to being overworked, or not allowing planned naps in the cockpit for U.S. flights as pilots in the rest of the world can. Being awake and not paying attention is inexcusable.
 
You know, everyone blasted the train engineer who was texting, resulting in a crash. I'm not sure I'd want my airline pilot checking email, surfing the web, or playing WOW at 35,000 ft., even with autopilot on.
 
Gregg2 said:
I disagree. Fatigue is a physiological state that can be attributed to being overworked, or not allowing planned naps in the cockpit for U.S. flights as pilots in the rest of the world can. Being awake and not paying attention is inexcusable.
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Yeah, I agree with this. For 99% of professional pilots out there, being situationally away from the aircraft for even a few minutes is uncomfortable - kind of like being in a car without a seatbelt on. Even when doing something else, the instinct is to at least glance up every minute or two to make sure the aircraft is doing what it's supposed to. A full hour for both pilots is not only completely careless, but it's so far off the end of careless that I'm still having a hard time believing that they're telling the truth.

Heck, ten minutes of radio silence will rub most pilots the wrong way - they didn't think something was wrong after an hour of not talking or hearing from anyone? Not to mention the aircraft passing through who knows how many fixes on the arrival, ignoring ACARS messages, not noticing the aircraft mindlessly wandering off on a heading after passing the final fix?

Sigh...I'm the first guy to give pilots the benefit of the doubt, but if what they're saying is true, they should have lied and said they fell asleep. :(
 
jecapaga said:
Perhaps playing around on laptops is commonplace for commercial pilots in the air?
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Download rates for porn at 12,000 feet are near perfect; we should give these pilots a break as long as they share their downloads!

:rolleyes:
 
dmr727 said:
Yeah, I agree with this. For 99% of professional pilots out there, being situationally away from the aircraft for even a few minutes is uncomfortable - kind of like being in a car without a seatbelt on. Even when doing something else, the instinct is to at least glance up every minute or two to make sure the aircraft is doing what it's supposed to. A full hour for both pilots is not only completely careless, but it's so far off the end of careless that I'm still having a hard time believing that they're telling the truth.

Heck, ten minutes of radio silence will rub most pilots the wrong way - they didn't think something was wrong after an hour of not talking or hearing from anyone? Not to mention the aircraft passing through who knows how many fixes on the arrival, ignoring ACARS messages, not noticing the aircraft mindlessly wandering off on a heading after passing the final fix?

Sigh...I'm the first guy to give pilots the benefit of the doubt, but if what they're saying is true, they should have lied and said they fell asleep. :(
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Answer for me an honest question could you?

Have you ever heard of pilots screwing around with a stewardess while in flight?

I have a theory.:p
 
Peace said:
Answer for me an honest question could you?

Have you ever heard of pilots screwing around with a stewardess while in flight?

I have a theory.:p
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Heh! I've heard stories from airline pilots while on the road, but I have no way to verify if they're true or not. My understanding is that it was more prevalent back in the day, but once the whole sexual harassment thing got big in the 90s, it pretty much stopped. A pissed off flight attendant, even if the act itself was consensual, could cause a lot of problems. :p
 
dmr727 said:
Yeah, I agree with this. For 99% of professional pilots out there, being situationally away from the aircraft for even a few minutes is uncomfortable - kind of like being in a car without a seatbelt on. Even when doing something else, the instinct is to at least glance up every minute or two to make sure the aircraft is doing what it's supposed to. A full hour for both pilots is not only completely careless, but it's so far off the end of careless that I'm still having a hard time believing that they're telling the truth.

Heck, ten minutes of radio silence will rub most pilots the wrong way - they didn't think something was wrong after an hour of not talking or hearing from anyone? Not to mention the aircraft passing through who knows how many fixes on the arrival, ignoring ACARS messages, not noticing the aircraft mindlessly wandering off on a heading after passing the final fix?

Sigh...I'm the first guy to give pilots the benefit of the doubt, but if what they're saying is true, they should have lied and said they fell asleep. :(
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This post is so true. It is second nature to look at everything quite often even if you don't really consciously absorb the data. A slight glance to the main instruments lets you know that everything is "in the right place." After enough hours you can recognize when something isn't quite right. For professional pilots doing the same journey over and over, I would suspect this is the case on timing as well. After enough time in the air you just sort of "know" it's time to move on from cruise.

And, for the other pilots, ever have 10 mins of silence on a Sunday morning? usually someone says "anyone there?" just to make sure that you are on the right freq. or still receiving. 10 mins of no radio comms (to you) seems like a long time.

Still skeptical -- but who knows...
 
dmr727 said:
Yeah, I agree with this. For 99% of professional pilots out there, being situationally away from the aircraft for even a few minutes is uncomfortable - kind of like being in a car without a seatbelt on. Even when doing something else, the instinct is to at least glance up every minute or two to make sure the aircraft is doing what it's supposed to. A full hour for both pilots is not only completely careless, but it's so far off the end of careless that I'm still having a hard time believing that they're telling the truth.
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Agree completely. Yet apparently it's true.

According to ABC News, the FAA is likely to suspend these two jokers, and the airline will probably fire them. Kind of sad, because one guy had something like 20 years' experience, the other twelve. But as you say, this is off-the-charts irresponsibility. Any other punishment would be inadequate.
 
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