ARM Cortex A9 Performance Demo - Likely Chip to Power iSlate and Future iPhones

[Ultranote]

Are we watching the same video?

did you miss the fact that the Atom on the left is running at 1600MHz whilst the ARM is only at 500MHz? Pretty good.

The Cortex A9 can run up to 2GHz and eat nearly 10x less battery than an X86.

OS X projects are designed to be processor-independant to facilitate porting to another architecture when it's relevant.

 

[MacFly123]

So other companies will be using these A9 chips as well. Isn't that where Apple buying P.A. Semi comes in? Because they bought them, Apple will basically be designing their own custom hybrid of the A9 chip that other manufacturers will NOT be able to use right???

 

[dguisinger]

So other companies will be using these A9 chips as well. Isn't that where Apple buying P.A. Semi comes in? Because they bought them, Apple will basically be designing their own custom hybrid of the A9 chip that other manufacturers will NOT be able to use right???

Correct, everyone else will be using off the shelf parts. Apple will use parts specific to what their end product is.

 

[cmaier]

So other companies will be using these A9 chips as well. Isn't that where Apple buying P.A. Semi comes in? Because they bought them, Apple will basically be designing their own custom hybrid of the A9 chip that other manufacturers will NOT be able to use right???

That is one theory. ARM licenses both soft cores and hard cores. One theory is that Apple has a soft core license and is doing their own physical design. Physical design has a huge effect on power and clock speed (but not on the number of instructions per cycle).

Another theory is that Apple has an architectural license - if so they could conceivable design whatever they want that runs ARM opcodes, with as many cores as they want, and whatever architectural features they want. If that's the case, they conceivably would have a huge advantage over everyone else if you believe PA Semi guys are that great.

I know many of the PA Semi guys (and many of the non PA Semi guys who are now on that team). Some of them are very good. Some of them are highly overrated. Some of them worked on the original StrongARM chip for DEC (most of them, in fact). That's why I don't believe they are working on a PPC - their heritage is actually ARM. They were working on PPC only for a comparatively brief period.

 

[mkrishnan]

Since the atom is 1.6ghz... I would hope so!

The tablet will certainly run an ARM variant, so running Windows or Mac OS X on it is not going to happen.

I think the problem isn't the OS... I think the nagging issue here is going to be Flash or a Flash alternative. Flash, as it exists today, on that reference Atom design, in Windows, is capable of running full-screen flash video, but it does so at marginal levels.

Flash itself is marginally relevant in terms of the overall web experience, but once the issue of streaming video comes up, I think it's a different story, as Hulu, Netflix, Unbox, and the in-house websites of the major US broadcast and cable networks all use Flash as their content delivery mechanism.

I would consider full screen video to be a fairly important component of the pitch, so I'll be curious to see what Apple has in mind. I'm hoping the answer is, "Sorry, you can't use all the providers that offer high-quality, free or inexpensive TV/movie video over the internet, but you can use our $3.99 rental system."

 

[Ultranote]

So other companies will be using these A9 chips as well. Isn't that where Apple buying P.A. Semi comes in? Because they bought them, Apple will basically be designing their own custom hybrid of the A9 chip that other manufacturers will NOT be able to use right???

Yes, ARM provides the generic blue prints which are then adapted independantly by the licensed clients. It's up to the client to produce the chips. So it could be a Cortex A9 + some PA Semi tricks and/or additional processors.

 

[MacFly123]

Yes, ARM provides the generic blue prints which are then adapted independantly by the licensed clients. It's up to the client to produce the chips. So it could be a Cortex A9 + some PA Semi tricks and/or additional processors.

Do we publicly know of any other licensees that could be designing their own hybrids of these A9s like Apple?

Correct, everyone else will be using off the shelf parts. Apple will use parts specific to what their end product is.

That is one theory. ARM licenses both soft cores and hard cores. One theory is that Apple has a soft core license and is doing their own physical design. Physical design has a huge effect on power and clock speed (but not on the number of instructions per cycle).

Another theory is that Apple has an architectural license - if so they could conceivable design whatever they want that runs ARM opcodes, with as many cores as they want, and whatever architectural features they want. If that's the case, they conceivably would have a huge advantage over everyone else if you believe PA Semi guys are that great.

I know many of the PA Semi guys (and many of the non PA Semi guys who are now on that team). Some of them are very good. Some of them are highly overrated. Some of them worked on the original StrongARM chip for DEC (most of them, in fact). That's why I don't believe they are working on a PPC - their heritage is actually ARM. They were working on PPC only for a comparatively brief period.

Very interesting! Thanks for the info. I am so antsy for the event on the 27th. Although, we probably will never know the real details of what Apple is doing with these chips as it will be top secret for competitive advantage.

 

[Cleve]

Apple is the un-named licensee of the ARM cortex A9 that they listed in their Q3 earnings call
http://www.9to5mac.com/ARM-cortex-a9-pa-semi-apple-tablet

 

[Lesser Evets]

I'm afraid many were, at least at $1000 a pop.

"at that price it better run OSX..." lot's of comments like that in the various slate threads.

You are getting OSX mixed up with overall app function.

99% of people won;t give a crap if it isn't OSX, but will want function. Apple hopefully programs a trimmed version or a new version that is similar to OSX to accommodate function of programs.

If Apple doesn't have good Apps on there, it's bombed with me. Especially at $1000. I'd buy a trinket surf-game-media device at $599, but not above. Not sure who is with me on that, but many won't pay that much.

 

[commander.data]

did you miss the fact that the Atom on the left is running at 1600MHz whilst the ARM is only at 500MHz? Pretty good.

The Cortex A9 can run up to 2GHz and eat nearly 10x less battery than an X86.

OS X projects are designed to be processor-independant to facilitate porting to another architecture when it's relevant.

ARM Cortex A9's big new feature is that it is an out of order processor, which can provide quite significant performance benefits over in-order processors like Atom and the previous Cortex A8. At the same clock speed, Cortex A9 should be faster than Atom. Which does mean that a dual core 2GHz ARM Cortex A9 could well be competitive with CULV Core 2 Duos performance wise.

 

[cmaier]

Apple is the un-named licensee of the ARM cortex A9 that they listed in their Q3 earnings call
http://www.9to5mac.com/ARM-cortex-a9-pa-semi-apple-tablet

Possibly. It implies a soft core license. I can't believe, given the team, that the long term plan is to synthesize, place, and route someone else's verilog. The number of cores and clock speed is architecturally irrelevant - I would expect Apple is licensing the ISA and will eventually do the entire chip design from scratch. Of course, if they did that from the get go they wouldn't be ready with a tablet-ready chip at this point.

 

[cmaier]

ARM Cortex A9's big new feature is that it is an out of order processor, which can provide quite significant performance benefits over in-order processors like Atom and the previous Cortex A8. At the same clock speed, Cortex A9 should be faster than Atom. Which does mean that a dual core 2GHz ARM Cortex A9 could well be competitive with CULV Core 2 Duos performance wise.

Maybe. Out of order compared to in order is faster on the same ISA and given the same number of pipes, registers, etc. Given that x86 instructions generally carry a much bigger payload than ARM instructions, unless you have some specific data I wouldn't reach that conclusion.

 

[Ultranote]

tablet with 3D desktop

Coincidentally, ARM has a (giant) 720p tablet prototype using 3D objects instead of 2D icons on a multitouch surface.

Have a look here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0bwMCe6IaA


Smaller prototypes at the end.

 

[reallynotnick]

It is worth noting the A9 is dual core while the Atom is single core.

I'm most interested in seeing the power draw from each processor, how much more efficient is the A9?

 

[cmaier]

It is worth noting the A9 is dual core while the Atom is single core.

I'm most interested in seeing the power draw from each processor, how much more efficient is the A9?

That's a tough question because much of the difference in efficiency has to do with implementation - for a given transistor, Intel is as efficient as anyone in the world. The guys at DEC who moved on to PA Semi are guys who know how to make super efficient chips, however.

 

[cube]

did you miss the fact that the Atom on the left is running at 1600MHz whilst the ARM is only at 500MHz? Pretty good.

The Cortex A9 can run up to 2GHz and eat nearly 10x less battery than an X86.

OS X projects are designed to be processor-independant to facilitate porting to another architecture when it's relevant.

It is not just pretty good. It is EXCELLENT.

Not to mention that the Atom netbook has a graphics accelerator, while the Cortex board does not.

 

[strike1555]

Does that really matter? I don't think anyone's expecting to run Mac/PC apps on their iSlate.

arn

Uhh..yeah?

Kinda kills any chance of real homebrew.

 

[MovieCutter]

I like the use of CRT monitors to show us about the technology of tomorrow (like using a b&w camera to tell us about HDTV).

RIGHT!? WTF WAS THAT!!!????

 

[timbck2]

The airport routers have always ran ARM

Nope, the early Airports had i486 CPUs.

 

[retroneo]

the just released Nexus One currently utilize ARM processors based on the Cortex A8 design

This is incorrect.

The Nexus One uses a Qualcomm Snapdragon with a custom ARM-based Scorpion core, which is more similar to the A9 than the A8.

Like the A9, Scorpion uses out-of-order processing and supports multiprocessor configurations. A8 does not.

 

[Lone Deranger]

Didn't Steve Jobs during one of his keynotes allude to his engineers having OSX running on a multitude of architectures for a number of years already? Therefore would it be possible to assume they have OSX running on ARM CPUs in their labs?

(Sorry if this sounds preposterous. My hardware knowledge is rather limited, though I'm genuinely intrigued by the possibilities of ARM).

The tablet will certainly run an ARM variant, so running Windows or Mac OS X on it is not going to happen.

arn

 

[cmaier]

Didn't Steve Jobs during one of his keynotes allude to his engineers having OSX running on a multitude of architectures for a number of years already? Therefore would it be possible to assume they have OSX running on ARM CPUs in their labs?

(Sorry if this sounds preposterous. My hardware knowledge is rather limited, though I'm genuinely intrigued by the possibilities of ARM).

since iphone OS is based on OSX, it is fairly certain they have desktop OSX running on ARM as well. It is unlikely they plan on doing anything with it anytime soon.

 

[Ultranote]

Didn't Steve Jobs during one of his keynotes allude to his engineers having OSX running on a multitude of architectures for a number of years already? Therefore would it be possible to assume they have OSX running on ARM CPUs in their labs?

(Sorry if this sounds preposterous. My hardware knowledge is rather limited, though I'm genuinely intrigued by the possibilities of ARM).

OS X is already ported to ARM inside the iPhone. What can't be ported "as is"
from the Mac to such a small screen is the user interface. You need something very fluid and appealing on a small screen. Meaning porting the code then adapting the user interface of any software you want to port so that it makes sense. Not too difficult if the development kit is smart.

 

[kiranmk2]

Web browsing is all well and good, but will the A9 decode high profile H264 1080p video?

 

[wizard]

They should be able to do a lot better than that.

If it has a Cortex A9 in it, why would it be $1000? That processor would allow them to price it significantly less, I'd imagine, closer to $799.

jW

From what I understand the A9 core doesn't grow that much over the older models. That means chip area iisnt much larger than todays ARM processors. Adding the GPU and I/O adds some space but Apple could potentially reduce the area required via carefully selected I/O. This would be a sharp contrast to the kitchen sink approach seen in commercial processors.

Even is Apple goes quad core I still see the SoC coming in under $40. Ultimately the tablets price could be around $400 depending upon how Apple configures it. Give it 3G and the price will inflate some. Hopefull they will take the same tact as the have with Touch/iPhone and give people options.

The CPU in this tablet really doesn't have to cost that much more than the device in the Touch. It's all about die size and process. Finally it should be noted that Atom is pretty darn cheap itself so you can use that as a benchmark. $799 is the price likely reserved for the top end all out model.


Dave