ARM Cortex A9 Performance Demo - Likely Chip to Power iSlate and Future iPhones

[MikhailT]

Are we watching the same video?

The right screen is off by a couple of millisecond as it is not completely synced to the left. It looks like it is a sec slower but sync it up a bit and you'll see that it is very competitive. We're talking about a DUAL core CPU running at 500MHz running the same performance as SINGLE core Atom 1600Mhz. Now the question that wasn't answered was, how long did A9 last without power compared to that netbook.

Dual Core Atom can't last more than 3 hours on a battery charge while the latest Atom single core chips can do more than 5 hours with some netbooks holding 6 cell battery going up to 12 hours.

Imagine the performance of A9 at 1.0Ghz and lasting 12 hours on a single battery charge.

Since the atom is 1.6ghz... I would hope so!

So basically Apple is transitioning their lineup from PPC to x86(64) to ARM... At what point do they stop using x86 in the Macbook line, and just keep that as a "pro" option?

Don't get confused with the CPU tech here. Two completely different CPU arch for two different type of computation use, x86 for desktop/laptop, full power usage and ARM for low power mobile devices like netbook, smartphones and tablets.

Apple isn't transitioning anything. They are just using ARM for iPhone devices and x86 for everything else.

If it has a Cortex A9 in it, why would it be $1000? That processor would allow them to price it significantly less, I'd imagine, closer to $799.

jW

CPUs are usually not the highest expense in building such devices. They are usually halfway on the list with the screen being a bit more expensive than the CPUs.

Bill of Material for iPhone 3GS to give you an idea.

No way Apple is building a fab. That costs billions of dollars, and there are plenty of contract fabs (TSMC, Charter, Global Foundries, UMC, IBM) that are a much better solution.

Nobody said that Apple is building a fab, a design/engineering teams are what they have from the PA Semi. They can design their own CPUs and outsource it to the contract fabs.

I think the problem isn't the OS... I think the nagging issue here is going to be Flash or a Flash alternative. Flash, as it exists today, on that reference Atom design, in Windows, is capable of running full-screen flash video, but it does so at marginal levels.

Flash itself is marginally relevant in terms of the overall web experience, but once the issue of streaming video comes up, I think it's a different story, as Hulu, Netflix, Unbox, and the in-house websites of the major US broadcast and cable networks all use Flash as their content delivery mechanism.

I would consider full screen video to be a fairly important component of the pitch, so I'll be curious to see what Apple has in mind. I'm hoping the answer is, "Sorry, you can't use all the providers that offer high-quality, free or inexpensive TV/movie video over the internet, but you can use our $3.99 rental system."

No Flash on iPhone and people seem to be fine with that. I don't honestly expect Flash to be around for the next decade, something is coming out sooner or later to replace Flash and I honestly think it'll be an open source type of media. HTML5 Video is probably not it, it is immature right now due to different type of codecs that's in different browser.

ARM Cortex A9's big new feature is that it is an out of order processor, which can provide quite significant performance benefits over in-order processors like Atom and the previous Cortex A8. At the same clock speed, Cortex A9 should be faster than Atom. Which does mean that a dual core 2GHz ARM Cortex A9 could well be competitive with CULV Core 2 Duos performance wise.

Not necessary, other things can be a factor. I am sure ARM A9 had to make a tradeoff to get an out of order tech in, something had to be compensated for it.

It is not just pretty good. It is EXCELLENT.

Not to mention that the Atom netbook has a graphics accelerator, while the Cortex board does not.

I didn't understand what the guy meant by graphics accelerator, was he talking about GPU or one of those HD accelerator, or integrated vs discreet GPU. If A9 is doing everything on CPU, that's impressive considering superfast desktop CPUs won't be able to render everything at more than 10fps either.

RIGHT!? WTF WAS THAT!!!????

Majority of experimental/research labs still use CRTs. Cheap or free to find, buy and constantly replace with. Most of my college labs for research still use CRTs for same reason.

Web browsing is all well and good, but will the A9 decode high profile H264 1080p video?

Even if it doesn't, it doesn't matter, netbooks are coming out with dedicated HD accelerators to do the job.

.....
About that x86 issue:
I think it does matter quite a bit. Netbooks are a huge market and the video shows that ARM is aiming for that. However, we can safely assume that Windows will not be ported to ARM in the near future and we can also assume that most people prefer Windows on their netbooks so far (Linux netbooks that were initially on the shelf were quickly abandoned). ARM will need a LOT of support from other players if they want to make a dent into Atom sales numbers. The Apple tablet will be playing in another segment and not even remotely compete in terms of netbooks (=Atoms) sold. So their bet is on Chrome OS I guess. Risky.

In my opinion, it doesn't matter a single thing. Apple isn't trying to enter the netbook market, they carve their own market and they still make huge profit on their margins on low volume sales, they aren't Dell. ARM is trying to spread their technology to all markets to make money, not just netbooks. Windows support isn't a must, it is not going to kill ARM. Microsoft can choose to port their Windows if ARM devices get too popular, MS is a software company, not a hardware company, they'll port if something is too big of a profit to miss.

This tablet is going to need to be some sort of miracle product. I don't even think that Apple can conjure a market for it.

I'm not fond of the direction we're going with all these ARM products going above portable status.

It doesn't have to be a miracle. Apple makes their own market and make enough of a profit to survive in a low volume market.

As for ARM products, many people wants netbook because of mobility and battery life afforded by them. The netbooks are starting to exceed 5-7 hours now with some netbooks coming out with 8-12 hours of actual life.

If I get a tablet, I would expect to replace my net-book, which means I need office 2007 and Skype and cisco vpn client on the tablet.

Good thing many other companies will be producing tablets, they probably know there are people like you and hope that Apple will seed off a secondary market of tablets that'll be bigger.

 

[applesupergeek]

Um, no. ARM CPUs are, from a technological perspective, quite boring. They are architecturally simple and unininteresting, and generally use fabrication technology that is a couple years behind what the big boys are using, thus they rely on AMD and Intel to work out the kinks and work with the EDA guys to get DFM, etc., working. Intel chips improve greatly with each generation. And I say that as a guy who spent a decade designing chips for their competitor, AMD (and also designed Sparcs for Sun and PPCs for Exponential, the PA Semi of its day - Apple was an investor and on the board of directors).

While I do not doubt your expertise, I question your common sense. Am I for some reason to believe that this backward monstrosity that is the atom that got rushed for the crapbook, sorry, netbook wave is somehow more exciting that the ARM doing more with ten times less the resources in power?

As an end user I really don't care if technologically arm is more boring that watching paint dry, I consider far more boring that the most touted architecture "leap" by intel in the mobile segment in the arrandales to be saddled by a worst in class igfx and showcase a mere 15% improvement and no improvement in thermals and power efficiency (not ceteris paribus of course). If they wan't their chips to be more respected they should (paradoxically) stop being the lifeblood in funding the engadgets and anandtechs of this world, and every other dime a dozen website, because raising the bar for expectations and then not delivering isn't impacting well on them.

 

[cmaier]

While I do not doubt your expertise, I question your common sense. Am I for some reason to believe that this backward monstrosity that is the atom that got rushed for the crapbook, sorry, netbook wave is somehow more exciting that the ARM doing more with ten times less the resources in power?

As an end user I really don't care if technologically arm is more boring that watching paint dry, I consider far more boring that the most touted architecture "leap" by intel in the mobile segment in the arrandales to be saddled by a worst in class igfx and showcase a mere 15% improvement and no improvement in thermals and power efficiency (not ceteris paribus of course). If they wan't their chips to be more respected they should (paradoxically) stop being the lifeblood in funding the engadgets and anandtechs of this world, and every other dime a dozen website, because raising the bar for expectations and then not delivering isn't impacting well on them.

15% is a huge improvement, especially while keeping TDP in check. Further, how's ARM's igfx compared to Intel? Oh, wait... I have no idea what the rest of your rant is about.

 

[myview]

@speedy2

Switch views.
Now thats what I said;0

 

[applesupergeek]

15% is a huge improvement, especially while keeping TDP in check. Further, how's ARM's igfx compared to Intel? Oh, wait... I have no idea what the rest of your rant is about.

It's always the inferiority complex types that feel the need to use the term "rant" as a put down for other posters' posts. Odious, but typical in the industry.

And btw because you have the impression that the forum is populated by idiots, they could have kept the 15% increase and constant tdp solely by virtue of going to a smaller nm proccess without even going into a new architecture.

 

[cmaier]

It's always the inferiority complex types that feel the need to use the term "rant" as a put down for other poster's posts. Odious, but typical in the industry.

You went from talking about chips to talking about tech websites and complaining about Intel's odious intentions. i call that a rant. Perhaps you can explain what specific technological advancement ARM has made that you find so compelling since you stated that ARM is innovating and Intel is not. That would be more productive then "questioning my common sense" and accusing me of an inferiority complex. This thread is about chips, so let's talk about chips, and not websites, etc.

 

[mjtomlin]

Whatever chip they put in the iSlate or future iPhones, I bet it will be a design by PA Semi. And a good chance that it won't be an ARM derivative but something more in tune with what the engineers at PA Semi have been working with in the past (very low power PowerPC derivative). Apple bought this company a year and a half ago and we haven't heard a peep from the lab yet. It's been long enough.

PA Semi was bought for their expertise in lower-power design. This is critical when developing components for mobile (battery powered) products. The ARM is a solid design and there's no reason Apple would want to design their own CPU, but there's no doubt they are designing their own SoC with ARM core(s) and possibly even specialized cores to relieve the CPU from certain OS X tasks.

Eventually, I also see these specialized cores making their way into Macs as well, giving them a performance advantage over other Intel based systems.


And maybe some people don't know or remember, Apple co-developed the ARM (Advanced RISC Machine) CPU along with Acorn and VLSI Logic back in the late 80's for use in upcoming mobile devices, most notably, the Newton.

 

[inkswamp]

Nice demo but I can't take anyone seriously when they use the phrase "end user value proposition."

 

[ericinboston]

...Such a device would likely be tasked with more processor intensive tasks and be priced against Atom powered netbooks.

Ummmmmm....most reports over the past 4-5 months on the rumored Apple Tablet price the device at $1000 or higher.

So tell me again, MR, how an Apple Tablet priced at $1000 (or even $800) is "priced against Atom powered netbooks" that fall between $300 and $450?

I'm not talking about all the dreamy features and sexiness that only Apple can whip up...I'm talking dollars vs. dollars as this latest MR states.

-Eric

 

[DeepIn2U]

While Snapdragon pretends - based on an ARM8 Cortex A8 (most likely loosely), the development Buggleboard redux running Cortex A9 is the Real-McCoy!

onward Cortex A9 with dual-core and SMP support.

Apple ... its time to open the API's and floodworks for a pure multitasking smartphone the iPhone is destined to be!

 

[milo]

About that x86 issue:
I think it does matter quite a bit. Netbooks are a huge market and the video shows that ARM is aiming for that. However, we can safely assume that Windows will not be ported to ARM in the near future and we can also assume that most people prefer Windows on their netbooks so far (Linux netbooks that were initially on the shelf were quickly abandoned). ARM will need a LOT of support from other players if they want to make a dent into Atom sales numbers. The Apple tablet will be playing in another segment and not even remotely compete in terms of netbooks (=Atoms) sold. So their bet is on Chrome OS I guess. Risky.

I don't know that arm is shooting for netbooks, it's just the easiest thing to benchmark against.

I also wouldn't assume that people really want windows on a netbook - sure, that's how most are selling so far, but there really aren't any decent alternatives yet. The apple tablet may (or may not) change that. While it is in a different segment, it has the potential to take many netbook sales since it would appeal to many of the same users.

I think their bet is on tablets and similar devices. So far they have been doing pretty good powering iPhones and the touch.

This tablet is going to need to be some sort of miracle product. I don't even think that Apple can conjure a market for it.

I think it all comes down to price, if this is cheap enough it will be huge, selling to many of the people who would otherwise buy a netbook. It's also possible that it starts out expensive to cash in from early adopters and the price drops fairly quickly.

After all, if the ipod touch could be such a hit costing from $299-399 at introduction, why not a bigger device costing a bit more? Honestly, who could have imagined how huge the iphone or touch would have been before they were introduced?

Ummmmmm....most reports over the past 4-5 months on the rumored Apple Tablet price the device at $1000 or higher.

So tell me again, MR, how an Apple Tablet priced at $1000 (or even $800) is "priced against Atom powered netbooks" that fall between $300 and $450?

Because nobody has the foggiest idea how much the tablet will cost. $1k is just a rumor (and there hasn't been a single one saying OVER that, not sure where you came up with that), just as $600 or less is. Of all the factors of a new apple release, price is the easiest to keep secret, it's entirely possible they haven't even decided price yet.

 

[Eidorian]

I think it all comes down to price, if this is cheap enough it will be huge, selling to many of the people who would otherwise buy a netbook. It's also possible that it starts out expensive to cash in from early adopters and the price drops fairly quickly.

After all, if the ipod touch could be such a hit costing from $299-399 at introduction, why not a bigger device costing a bit more? Honestly, who could have imagined how huge the iphone or touch would have been before they were introduced?

We're getting mixed messages from all over. Everything from shockingly cheap to $1,000 it replaces everything by using ARM somehow.

Maybe I've become to jaded about technology in general to foot the early adopter bill waiting for something to get it right. Sadly in my experiences with Apple it's never really right.

My Macbook though is the best Mac I've owned since it provides me with full utility and OS X. I hop over to Windows XP to play some Lumines and Civilization 4 is great even on the GMA X3100. Apple still hasn't offered a worthy replacement to the hardware or Leopard.

 

[Peace]

Well the tablet wars will start tomorrow!

http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/05/microsoft-to-reveal-hp-slate-tomorrow/

 

[MikhailT]

Ummmmmm....most reports over the past 4-5 months on the rumored Apple Tablet price the device at $1000 or higher.

So tell me again, MR, how an Apple Tablet priced at $1000 (or even $800) is "priced against Atom powered netbooks" that fall between $300 and $450?

I'm not talking about all the dreamy features and sexiness that only Apple can whip up...I'm talking dollars vs. dollars as this latest MR states.

-Eric

The Cortex A9 would be a particularly good fit for the rumored Apple Tablet, as such a device is seemingly positioning itself between a mobile phone and notebook. Such a device would likely be tasked with more processor intensive tasks and be priced against Atom powered netbooks.

It was referring to a tablet in general, not Apple's Tablet specifically. We have no idea what the final price will be, it depends on the screen's size as well. 7" iSlate could very well be 499$ with 10" hitting 899-999$.

My Macbook though is the best Mac I've owned since it provides me with full utility and OS X. I hop over to Windows XP to play some Lumines and Civilization 4 is great even on the GMA X3100. Apple still hasn't offered a worthy replacement to the hardware or Leopard.

Imagine if Apple was actually producing iSlate as replacement for the Macbook, by going hybrid with it. Screen itself is the tablet and detachable from the keyboard, like the Lenovo's IdeaPad U1. Definitely worth $1k.

 

[AidenShaw]

Well the tablet wars will start tomorrow!

...and we'll wade through endless posts on MacRumours about how much better the Islate is than anything else shown at CES.

...even though nobody knows what an Islate is!

 

[Eidorian]

...and we'll wade through endless posts on MacRumours about how much better the Islate is than anything else shown at CES.

...even though nobody knows what an Islate is!

I'm just waiting for new notebooks.

Though my wirelessly tethered tablet idea earlier was interesting.

 

[flopticalcube]

...and we'll wade through endless posts on MacRumours about how much better the Islate is than anything else shown at CES.

...even though nobody knows what an Islate is!

If any more tablets show up at CES, it will definitely live up to its supposed name of is-late. Is Apple intentionally trying to be just a little late to the party or is Apple attending its own party?

 

[MattInOz]

PA Semi was bought for their expertise in lower-power design. This is critical when developing components for mobile (battery powered) products. The ARM is a solid design and there's no reason Apple would want to design their own CPU, but there's no doubt they are designing their own SoC with ARM core(s) and possibly even specialized cores to relieve the CPU from certain OS X tasks.

Eventually, I also see these specialized cores making their way into Macs as well, giving them a performance advantage over other Intel based systems.

IF they are building a SoC for the iPhone then on a Mac it could run all the I/O including multitouch input driver for the track pad, wifi, bluetooth, cellnetwork data, the full range of heat, light and movement sensors, drive a two chip (or more) pool of Solid state storage plus drive a screen of 480x320 in full colour (With included graphics). So how big a screen in Black & white Mode? Doing all that for a day or so on one battery cell that the even the smallest macbook has 4 cells. Sound like it would make a great custom I/O hub for the mobile mac's.

What with Pixel Qi screens B&W mode then a super low power mode for listen to music, responding to emails, filling out company order forms or other mostly reading tasks where the low power mode may even be better than the full colour mode which could be instant on if needed anyway.

That would be a killer feature on all the laptops.

 

[JonHimself]

Imagine if Apple was actually producing iSlate as replacement for the Macbook, by going hybrid with it. Screen itself is the tablet and detachable from the keyboard, like the Lenovo's IdeaPad U1. Definitely worth $1k.

It's a pretty awesome concept. Two computers - Win7 when the screen is in the laptop, some Linux variant when it's just the tablet. Apparently when the screen is removed you can run video out of the rest of the computer and still have it function as a Win7 laptop.

Imagine having OSX on your laptop, pop-out the screen and have a glorified iPhone OS (multiple app windows, some product-specific apps, background apps, whatever) when you pull the screen out? Definitely worth $1k.

 

[Eidorian]

It's a pretty awesome concept. Two computers - Win7 when the screen is in the laptop, some Linux variant when it's just the tablet. Apparently when the screen is removed you can run video out of the rest of the computer and still have it function as a Win7 laptop.

Imagine having OSX on your laptop, pop-out the screen and have a glorified iPhone OS (multiple app windows, some product-specific apps, background apps, whatever) when you pull the screen out? Definitely worth $1k.

I was under the impression that the delay when removing the display tablet was from it switching over to the Linux on ARM operating system. On a second viewing it was still wirelessly transmitting the display data from Windows 7 and the Linux mode was for completely untethered use.

I really like where this is going.

 

[MegaSignal]

I like the use of CRT monitors to show us about the technology of tomorrow (like using a b&w camera to tell us about HDTV).

I noticed that as well - ironic and hilarious at the same time!

 

[JonHimself]

I was under the impression that the delay when removing the display tablet was from it switching over to the Linux on ARM operating system. On a second viewing it was still wirelessly transmitting the display data from Windows 7 and the Linux mode was for completely untethered use.

I really like where this is going.

I think it switches to the linux mode immediately. There is a seamless transfer when browsing the web on Win7 docked, to Linux as a tablet. So it was actually the linux OS browser looking at the same page when it was removed.
I read it on Gizmodo (I think) that describes all other apps have that 2-second delay in the switch from Win7 laptop to linux tablet.

 

[Eidorian]

I think it switches to the linux mode immediately. There is a seamless transfer when browsing the web on Win7 docked, to Linux as a tablet. So it was actually the linux OS browser looking at the same page when it was removed.
I read it on Gizmodo (I think) that describes all other apps have that 2-second delay in the switch from Win7 laptop to linux tablet.

I guess that delay also included pulling over the URL and rendering the page. That definitely isn't Windows 7 solitaire.

 

[MikhailT]

Imagine having OSX on your laptop, pop-out the screen and have a glorified iPhone OS (multiple app windows, some product-specific apps, background apps, whatever) when you pull the screen out? Definitely worth $1k.

OMFG, I think I just JIZZED. Apple so need to develop that. That does change the way we interact with our computers in some way.

 

[KingYaba]

Total waste of money if I can't run OS X.