Arstechnica review

[macbook123]

This sums it up well for me:

"Even if you consider the MacBook and MacBook Pros to be solid computers—and they are, in most respects for most users—these refreshes by themselves don’t really right the Good Ship Macintosh. The Mac Mini is two years old, the Mac Pro is three years old, and the iMac just missed out on a yearly refresh for the first time since the 2012 models came out. The company is serving its entry-level Mac customers by selling them 2015’s laptops virtually unchanged for the same price as it sold them for last year. And Apple being Apple, we never hear about future products before they’re ready, which does nothing to ease the minds of longtime Mac customers who are uncertain about the platform’s future in a time where iOS is clearly (and rightfully, based on Apple's earnings) the top priority."

http://arstechnica.com/apple/2016/1...is-good-but-its-missing-all-the-cool-stuff/4/

 

[AdonisSMU]

This sums it up well for me:

"Even if you consider the MacBook and MacBook Pros to be solid computers—and they are, in most respects for most users—these refreshes by themselves don’t really right the Good Ship Macintosh. The Mac Mini is two years old, the Mac Pro is three years old, and the iMac just missed out on a yearly refresh for the first time since the 2012 models came out. The company is serving its entry-level Mac customers by selling them 2015’s laptops virtually unchanged for the same price as it sold them for last year. And Apple being Apple, we never hear about future products before they’re ready, which does nothing to ease the minds of longtime Mac customers who are uncertain about the platform’s future in a time where iOS is clearly (and rightfully, based on Apple's earnings) the top priority."

http://arstechnica.com/apple/2016/1...is-good-but-its-missing-all-the-cool-stuff/4/

I actually agree with that statement. I think too much penny pinching is going on at the expense of the users and the platform. Even an incremental update is still an update. I feel like Apple is being a little lazy for my taste. I wouldve liked to see the whole suite of Apple's Mac line get updates. The Mac line is used to service the cash cow iOS products.

 

[therealseebs]

I actually agree with that statement. I think too much penny pinching is going on at the expense of the users and the platform. Even an incremental update is still an update. I feel like Apple is being a little lazy for my taste. I wouldve liked to see the whole suite of Apple's Mac line get updates. The Mac line is used to service the cash cow iOS products.

Yeah.

That's the thing that's concerned me a lot as a Mac user, honestly: As a developer, I am really unhappy with the state of the product line, because I want those fancy high-powered machines that Apple isn't interested in selling. But I can't target MacOS using a Linux or Windows machine. So if I decide to switch from Mac to something else for my personal laptop, what do you think happens to my chances of writing things for the Mac?

There may come a day when I have a Mac Mini that exists only to run xcode for stuff I still want to maintain, and there may come a day when I just don't think it's worth it anymore.

Network effects are significant, and it does make sense to chase developers a bit even though they aren't all that large a market segment.

 

[AdonisSMU]

Yeah.

That's the thing that's concerned me a lot as a Mac user, honestly: As a developer, I am really unhappy with the state of the product line, because I want those fancy high-powered machines that Apple isn't interested in selling. But I can't target MacOS using a Linux or Windows machine. So if I decide to switch from Mac to something else for my personal laptop, what do you think happens to my chances of writing things for the Mac?

There may come a day when I have a Mac Mini that exists only to run xcode for stuff I still want to maintain, and there may come a day when I just don't think it's worth it anymore.

Network effects are significant, and it does make sense to chase developers a bit even though they aren't all that large a market segment.

If you dont have developers you dont have a market. MSFT learned the hard way when they released their phones and no developers would support them.

 

[therealseebs]

If you dont have developers you dont have a market. MSFT learned the hard way when they released their phones and no developers would support them.

Yeah.

So, consider: I'm a programmer. (Not mostly desktop apps, mind. But it's what I do.) I would guess that a very significant proportion of the people I talk to about computers are programmers. Many of them have Macs.

And every single one of them that I've talked to has said "I would much rather have a slightly thicker machine with Ethernet." And in general, most of the developers I know would rather have a slightly thicker machine that can run at higher load for longer at lower temperatures because it has heat sinks, and would rather have more ports than fewer, and would rather have a keyboard with better typing feel even if that makes things thicker.

And that's what worries me: Apple's been increasingly dismissive of developers. And back when iOS was dominating the smartphone market, I didn't really see myself as having the option of ignoring it. Now... It's not such an easy thing, and stuff like the iPhone 7 omitting the headphone jack has certainly not made me optimistic about continued adoption rates.

And that's what worries me, not just in terms of how I get along with the machines, but the future of the software I use on them. Windows now has a Unix-ish subsystem in it. Linux has gotten a lot more advanced and usable in the last decade. Apple is no longer the only game in town for "usable desktop with a working command line". So I'm still using MacOS, today, because a lot of the apps I care about are Mac-only or Mac-first. But I know that I'm paying thousands of dollars and giving up functionality I really want to get that, and... I don't know that I'll do it again. I might get something else in a year or two and start dealing with the headache of migration.

 

[Howard2k]

Ethernet? Really? It's 2016. I can understand many of the other concerns, but how many people are using Ethernet only because they don't have wifi?

Don't get me wrong, Ethernet has a specific niche, but every single one?

I haven't done any development for years so I'm not sure what they use it for? Are they storing huge projects on network stores where data transfer is actually time critical? I'm not saying I don't believe you, just trying to understand. I work for a really technically challenged organization and even on our 4 year old Windows 7 laptops we can use the organization's wifi to get our work done. Are they crowding out the frequency with large transfers? And what are those transfers?

 

[therealseebs]

Ethernet? Really? It's 2016. I can understand many of the other concerns, but how many people are using Ethernet only because they don't have wifi?

I don't know anyone doing that. Obviously we all have wifi.

Don't get me wrong, Ethernet has a specific niche, but every single one?

Wifi performance is atrocious. Once when someone on this forum told me wifi was just as fast, I ran a test, and confirmed that ethernet was >4x faster than wifi.

A week later I realized I'd been using an old 10/100 hub, not a gigabit switch, for that test.

And the thing is, I don't use Ethernet 100% of the time. But I use it. And I use it often enough that I absolutely want to have the port. I don't want to need a separate dongle that I could drop or lose. I want the machine to have the feature.

Sure, it's just a "convenience" feature. But it's a convenience feature which is worth infinitely more to me than a laptop so thin that they can't even give it a proper keyboard anymore.

I haven't done any development for years so I'm not sure what they use it for? Are they storing huge projects on network stores where data transfer is actually time critical? I'm not saying I don't believe you, just trying to understand. I work for a really technically challenged organization and even on our 4 year old Windows 7 laptops we can use the organizations wifi to get our work done. Are they crowding out the frequency with large transfers? And what are those transfers?

I use it for "why would I ever use wireless when I can easily arrange to have wired". It's faster, there's less interference with wireless, and so on. It doesn't sometimes go down unexpectedly. It doesn't get stuck disconnecting and reconnecting because someone's microwaving something. And, sometimes, yes, copying files. And if I decide I want to offload a bunch of videos to free up space on my SSD, obviously I'd rather that be gigabit than something 10x-20x slower.

I think the key point here is: It's not that you couldn't possibly use wireless. It's that, if you're at a desk, it's pretty much always less convenient to have to deal with wireless. So I have a henge dock, and a thunderbolt dock that provides ethernet, and my laptop has really reliable, really fast, network connectivity to everything else. And if I want to use it away from the desk, sure, I use wifi. But if I need to move files? I move to the desk because it's faster and more reliable.

 

[AdonisSMU]

Yeah.

So, consider: I'm a programmer. (Not mostly desktop apps, mind. But it's what I do.) I would guess that a very significant proportion of the people I talk to about computers are programmers. Many of them have Macs.

And every single one of them that I've talked to has said "I would much rather have a slightly thicker machine with Ethernet." And in general, most of the developers I know would rather have a slightly thicker machine that can run at higher load for longer at lower temperatures because it has heat sinks, and would rather have more ports than fewer, and would rather have a keyboard with better typing feel even if that makes things thicker.

And that's what worries me: Apple's been increasingly dismissive of developers. And back when iOS was dominating the smartphone market, I didn't really see myself as having the option of ignoring it. Now... It's not such an easy thing, and stuff like the iPhone 7 omitting the headphone jack has certainly not made me optimistic about continued adoption rates.

And that's what worries me, not just in terms of how I get along with the machines, but the future of the software I use on them. Windows now has a Unix-ish subsystem in it. Linux has gotten a lot more advanced and usable in the last decade. Apple is no longer the only game in town for "usable desktop with a working command line". So I'm still using MacOS, today, because a lot of the apps I care about are Mac-only or Mac-first. But I know that I'm paying thousands of dollars and giving up functionality I really want to get that, and... I don't know that I'll do it again. I might get something else in a year or two and start dealing with the headache of migration.

Im a dev/programmer and havent used ethernet in ages nor would I want to. Absolutely not. I dont know who youre talking to but the programmers I know at least 90% of them were happy to dump ethernet.

I agree with Apples decision to cut ports to a single standard. It hurts now but it simplifies the future. No one says you have to run out and replace your machine everytime Apple does a release.

I dont want a slightly thicker machine either unless there is a benefit that cannot be ignored. In fact, you can distinctly quote me as saying in another thread that I'd want it thinner. Many programmers and people in general dont understand that simply say ohhh I want a bigger battery to get more battery life...when this may or may not be true. There are implications for ever mm of thickness you add to a machine.

Its called engineering there will be negative and positive tradeoffs for each and every decision. Making something thicker might just be making it thicker and for no purpose. Apple made the 13" rMBP thicker than the 15" machine at first...as well as the iPad 3. There should be a distinct benefit to making something thicker. You buy a laptop for portability. I fail to understand why portability shouldn't take precedence over legacy ports on a machine when desktop devices can still support these legacy ports just fine. I think it's just not realistic.

 

[richpjr]

If you had your choice of using a high speed lan vs wifi, why in the world would you choose wifi? I always use ethernet when given a choice. And yes, I'm a programmer.

 

[AdonisSMU]

I don't know anyone doing that. Obviously we all have wifi.



Wifi performance is atrocious. Once when someone on this forum told me wifi was just as fast, I ran a test, and confirmed that ethernet was >4x faster than wifi.

A week later I realized I'd been using an old 10/100 hub, not a gigabit switch, for that test.

And the thing is, I don't use Ethernet 100% of the time. But I use it. And I use it often enough that I absolutely want to have the port. I don't want to need a separate dongle that I could drop or lose. I want the machine to have the feature.

Sure, it's just a "convenience" feature. But it's a convenience feature which is worth infinitely more to me than a laptop so thin that they can't even give it a proper keyboard anymore.



I use it for "why would I ever use wireless when I can easily arrange to have wired". It's faster, there's less interference with wireless, and so on. It doesn't sometimes go down unexpectedly. It doesn't get stuck disconnecting and reconnecting because someone's microwaving something. And, sometimes, yes, copying files. And if I decide I want to offload a bunch of videos to free up space on my SSD, obviously I'd rather that be gigabit than something 10x-20x slower.

I think the key point here is: It's not that you couldn't possibly use wireless. It's that, if you're at a desk, it's pretty much always less convenient to have to deal with wireless. So I have a henge dock, and a thunderbolt dock that provides ethernet, and my laptop has really reliable, really fast, network connectivity to everything else. And if I want to use it away from the desk, sure, I use wifi. But if I need to move files? I move to the desk because it's faster and more reliable.

I agree that when chained to a desk ethernet is important. It also is by far superior in terms of speed and reliability to wifi. However, I'd rather have a dongle for that if I want to use it. I feel strongly that things that can go on a dongle should go on a dongle. all the ports can be uniform and USB-C ports can handle any kind of data and power transfer that is needed. The user can decide if they want ethernet support or not by simply getting a dongle or not.
[doublepost=1478325930][/doublepost]

If you had your choice of using a high speed lan vs wifi, why in the world would you choose wifi? I always use ethernet when given a choice. And yes, I'm a programmer.

It depends. At a previous employer Id use the connector thunderbolt to ethernet. Even then it was more hassle to be on the ethernet because it was so locked down I'd have to switch to wifi anyway to get any work done. I dont want ethernet port as a standard part of the machine. Its exactly where it should be on a dongle.

 

[fatalogic]

The problem with dongles is it feels like the consumer is getting nickel and dimed to death. They really couldn't include a usb to usb -c cable or a usb -c to lightning cable in the box. Hell they don't even give you an extension cable any more.

 

[AdonisSMU]

The problem with dongles is it feels like the consumer is getting nickel and dimed to death. They really couldn't include a usb to usb -c cable or a usb -c to lightning cable in the box. Hell they don't even give you an extension cable any more.

It does feel that way. However my logic kicks in and says I havent used SD cards in 10+ years. It doesn't need to be a part of the main machine. The machine needs to be a good baseline and you extend it's capabilities if you chooses to. You have USB-C which supports all of the types of data transfer that can be had via a single standard. People can connect to that.

You wouldn't include everything just in case in code so why would you on hardware? One just needs to make the hardware extensible. Apple offers ethernet support through a common interface that can be used for other things like display and power transfer.

 

[fatalogic]

I'm all for the 4 usb-c ports but I'd something just doesn't feel right with the new MBP. I'll probably pick one up in a few months but I used to think a MBP was the best laptop for the money because you got OSX and could run Window/linux if you needed while also having the best blend of power, size and battery life. These new ones just don't excite me as a developer. Sure I get USB-C, more portability, Touch ID and better speakers but I have to deal with a worse keyboard, oversized touchpad, less ports, more expense and no gains in battery life. Not to mention skylake chips ( Intel's fault) when I know Kaby lake is coming soon. I think most people are just disappointed. Apple also hasn't given people an alternative because of the lack of upgrades on their desktop line.

 

[Howard2k]

If you had your choice of using a high speed lan vs wifi, why in the world would you choose wifi? I always use ethernet when given a choice. And yes, I'm a programmer.

Convenience. I do have that choice, I choose wifi because I can take my laptop to a meeting room, the lunch room, the cafe, or wherever, and it's seamless. Plugging cables in and out is easy too, but not so easy when someone has taken them, or I leave them on another desk etc. Since I'm not doing large file transfers at work the performance is a non-issue. Wifi isn't atrocious at all if implemented correctly. Certainly wired is faster, if you are doing mass file transfers then maybe it's your needs that are atrociously large? I use wifi at home instead of Ethernet and keep my data on a NAS, which I access via wifi. It flies. I don't get that performance at work but I don't need it either. "Typically" most users who think their network needs are actually time sensitive are incorrect. And for those few occasions when network needs actually genuinely are time sensitive, there is a TB/Ethernet cable I believe?

Anyway, whatever works.

 

[AdonisSMU]

I'm all for the 4 usb-c ports but I'd something just doesn't feel right with the new MBP. I'll probably pick one up in a few months but I used to think a MBP was the best laptop for the money because you got OSX and could run Window/linux if you needed while also having the best blend of power, size and battery life. These new ones just don't excite me as a developer. Sure I get USB-C, more portability, Touch ID and better speakers but I have to deal with a worse keyboard, oversized touchpad, less ports, more expense and no gains in battery life. Not to mention skylake chips ( Intel's fault) when I know Kaby lake is coming soon. I think most people are just disappointed. Apple also hasn't given people an alternative because of the lack of upgrades on their desktop line.

I like the keyboard and trackpad. The keyboard is easier for me to type on than previous MacBook Pros tbqh. My favorite thing about the MacBook is the keyboard TBQH. I can blaze on that thing. The problem is that the MacBook isn't powerful enough for some of the things I like to do with it...but I knew that going in and I'm ok with that. I will give it to my nephew when my new machine arrives.

The trackpad being bigger doesnt bother me. So I dont see it as bad. In fact I will say that I hate tiny trackpads.

 

[Lobwedgephil]

To be fair, the review is basically the air replacement. just Apple calling it a pro.

 

[maratus]

13" rMBP was always a proper Air replacement with good screen, now just with fewer ports.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

Ethernet? Really? It's 2016. I can understand many of the other concerns, but how many people are using Ethernet only because they don't have wifi?

Don't get me wrong, Ethernet has a specific niche, but every single one?

I haven't done any development for years so I'm not sure what they use it for? Are they storing huge projects on network stores where data transfer is actually time critical? I'm not saying I don't believe you, just trying to understand. I work for a really technically challenged organization and even on our 4 year old Windows 7 laptops we can use the organization's wifi to get our work done. Are they crowding out the frequency with large transfers? And what are those transfers?

I have to transfer around 1 terabyte minimum daily across the world. That's not going to happen on ANY wifi unless you expect me to stay at work 24/7.

 

[Uplift]

I remember when they removed ethernet and optical, I spent £90 for both when I purchased the first retina MacBook, I was well pissed off but I had to have it because it was an amazing device, I used both of them once or twice... I ended up selling the ethernet adapter to get some money back and the optical drive has collected dust.. I'd have sold that as well but I'm sure it developed a fault.

The change to USB-C wont go as easy but we do learn to adjust, this movement will accelerate USB-C adaption rates and in 12 months this will all be a distant memory.. that being said they should have included a cable or two to help with the growing pains, they're forcing early adopters into new standards but not willing to help along the way.

I just don't see dongle gate being a thing... I'll buy one USB-C to USB adapter and I need a new external drive anyway so I'll buy one that works with USB-C. I haven't plugged my phone in my laptop since 1769.

I know not everybody is the same, but personally I am not too concerned, the keyboard will be the ultimate decider on whether I cancel my pre-order or not, if I get to an Apple Store in time.

 

[maratus]

I have to transfer around 1 terabyte minimum daily across the world. That's not going to happen on ANY wifi unless you expect me to stay at work 24/7.

Oh god, what kind of work is that? 36 MB/s for 8 hours straight, that's insane.... You may appreciate rMBP's TB ports and use 2x Gigabit TB adapters for link aggregation with your work router or reasonably cheap 10 Gigabit to Thunderbolt network cards if 10 Gbit network is available at your workplace. Very few laptops will ever give such flexibility.

 

[AdonisSMU]

I think they shouldve transitioned to new Macs during the summer when no one was looking for something to buy. Get a few early adopters to work out the kinks then get ready for the Christmas rush when everything is tweaked and ready.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

Oh god, what kind of work is that? 36 MB/s for 8 hours straight, that's insane....

Ah no, you can't just upload media for 8 hours straight. Those 8 working hours are for creating, editing and prepping the media.

That terabyte (or more) has to be transferred in about 1-2 hours at the end of each day. So now imagine the kind of transfer speeds that wifi isn't close to achieving.

 

[maratus]

Ah no, you can't just upload media for 8 hours straight. Those 8 working hours are for creating, editing and prepping the media.

That terabyte (or more) has to be transferred in about 1-2 hours at the end of each day. So now imagine the kind of transfer speeds that wifi isn't close to achieving.

Oh jeez, are you able to achieve full gigabit through 1G Ethernet adapter in practice? Any tricks? These numbers are insane..... 144 MB/s of network speed required... that's faster than any of my USB3.0 2.5" external HDDs I stock up on. lol

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

Oh jeez, are you able to achieve full gigabit through 1G Ethernet adapter in practice? Any tricks? These numbers are insane..... 144 MB/s of network speed required... that's faster than any of my USB3.0 2.5" external HDDs I stock up on. lol

The fastest leased lines possible direct to the fastest FTP servers in Asia. Of course if you try to do calculations based on rounded up figures then you are not going to get exact numbers.

 

[maratus]

The fastest leased lines possible direct to the fastest FTP servers in Asia. Of course if you try to do calculations based on rounded up figures then you are not going to get exact numbers.

At least you're free to choose your laptop's network adapter with TB. I'm not sure if all laptops are capable to run close to a gigabit from their ethernet port using built-in network interface. I've had some issues with random mid-range laptops having bad network performance