Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
I think it's a bit of both, actually.

The existence of Boot Camp is a crutch for developers who think there won't be a sufficient fiscal reward for them to port AAA games to macOS. Apple's late updates to OpenGL is no longer a problem, from a technical standpoint, but people still remember it - both developers and gamers. Metal can help. Apple seems to think it can, and in the last 12 months they seem to be moving in a direction to reinforce those promises.

How are their late updates "no longer a problem" when they never updated to the final versions of OpenGL? Are you referring to Metal? If Metal doesn't have better APIs than OpenGL4.1 it's MOOT. There's probably more ground work to do since Metal is lower level. It may be taking some developers longer to port engines over to Metal, particularly if it's not a high priority to them. While I wouldn't mind better performance for Borderlands 2 and Pre-Sequel, I'm already getting smooth rates at my 24" monitor's native 1680x1050 (it actually did get smoother with El Capitan, one of the few things that did, really compared to Mavericks. I skipped Yosemite. Most things were the same or slower, although I think things like hard drive access on rotational drives did improve over the past couple of updates. I'm not terribly keen to find out if Apple's newest OS will make everything more bloated all over again, though.

Blizzard seems keen on Metal - at least to dip their toe into for WoW Legions. 60% performance gains may just give them pause to reconsider not offering Overwatch on macOS.

Epic seems keen on Metal for UT, although I've not seen framerate numbers yet.

Not releasing Overwatch doesn't sound too keen to me. WoW sells well on the Mac so it's not a shock (it even sold before Intel).
 
For all the doom and gloom Mac looks to be doing very good overall.

Just look on Steam and the Mac App Store. Tons of games, plenty of big names. Sure we don't have some excellent games like Doom and Overwatch. But "there are no games on Mac" is pure BS.

The current situation is pretty good.
1) Lots of games on the Mac. Plenty of big and small names.
2) Both Unity and UE4 currently ship with support for Metal.
3) macOS Sierra has added new Metal features, including tessellation.
4) UE4 claims Shader Model 5 support with 4.13. Not sure if this covers all the features of SM5 or what may be missing. But it brings us a helluva lot closer than what we had with OpenGL.
5) New GPUs from both AMD and nVidia are much more efficient so we can get decent performance in space limited enclosures like MBP and iMac.
6) eGPUs might actually end up being be a thing

So software side things are decent, now to see what Apple does on the next hardware refresh.

Also while Vulcan would be "nicer" to have as it would create a more unified front I can't say Apple should not have done Metal at all.

Metal was out on actual (iOS) devices like a year before Vulcan was even a thing, and probably one of the only reasons we have support for software like UE4 on Mac at all.
 
For all the doom and gloom Mac looks to be doing very good overall.

Just look on Steam and the Mac App Store. Tons of games, plenty of big names. Sure we don't have some excellent games like Doom and Overwatch. But "there are no games on Mac" is pure BS.

The current situation is pretty good.
1) Lots of games on the Mac. Plenty of big and small names.
Just a pity that almost all of these games are older titles or running on older tech, while the outlook for truly modern titles that require modern graphics technologies are very bleak...

There has been a couple of good years for Mac gaming, but that's coming to an end.

2) Both Unity and UE4 currently ship with support for Metal.
But so far, not a single Unity game actually uses Metal for Mac, and the sole available UE4 game with Metal support (Obduction) runs like arse.
 
Just a pity that almost all of these games are older titles or running on older tech, while the outlook for truly modern titles that require modern graphics technologies are very bleak...

There has been a couple of good years for Mac gaming, but that's coming to an end.


But so far, not a single Unity game actually uses Metal for Mac, and the sole available UE4 game with Metal support (Obduction) runs like arse.

How do you manage to get yourself out of the bed in the morning? You seem so damn depressed.
 
So, your opinion that the great run of Mac games in recent years is coming to an end - what about that is realistic?
Maybe you should ask yourself realistically what API should be used to port a game to macOS that makes full use of the graphical capabilities of other modern operating systems and/or hardware: the massively outdated OpenGL 4.1 or the massively underdeveloped Metal?

Let me repeat what I said before: Overwatch, Elite Dangerous: Horizons and F1 2015 were only the beginning. The writing's on the wall.
 
3) macOS Sierra has added new Metal features, including tessellation.
4) UE4 claims Shader Model 5 support with 4.13. Not sure if this covers all the features of SM5 or what may be missing. But it brings us a helluva lot closer than what we had with OpenGL.

SM5 support in UE4 4.13 is based on the features set of Metal in El Capitan, so its mostly complete but there a couple of things that work a bit differently to D3D or are just missing. Other than tessellation the missing features aren't used in our games or very often elsewhere because they are *very* high-end. Most of these differences will be addressed in a future version of UE4 that targets macOS Sierra which adds the required H/W feature support. Obviously that's future work so all the usual caveats apply and I'm not going to try and predict when that'll be complete.

But so far, not a single Unity game actually uses Metal for Mac, and the sole available UE4 game with Metal support (Obduction) runs like arse.

Cyan only released a Beta build of Obduction for Mac and stated that we're working with them to get it ready for full public release. There are good reasons for that and you shouldn't generalise based on its current state as by contrast our own game, Fortnite, has been using Metal since January quite successfully despite still being in Beta itself.

There has been a couple of good years for Mac gaming, but that's coming to an end.

Apple had to have a hard transition from their OpenGL to something else - it was always going to be tricky for a while. They weren't in the luxurious position of Microsoft who can allow a slow transition to D3D12 because D3D11 is good enough for most games. There aren't many D3D12-only games and not too many where D3D12 is an option, there are fewer still that use Vulkan - and that's on Windows where most AAA titles are developed. That's hardly a surprise to me working at the code-face and knowing how tricky it is to switch graphics APIs. Mac gaming will pick up again as Mac games developers really get on top of their Metal implementations....

Just a pity that almost all of these games are older titles or running on older tech, while the outlook for truly modern titles that require modern graphics technologies are very bleak...

That's just not true. Metal got us to Shader Model 5 support in UE4 4.13 which we could not have done with OpenGL and which future games are likely to require. The upcoming macOS Sierra adds more important features both big and small and I honestly expect Apple to continue extending Metal in future releases to keep it competitive. I didn't feel that way about OpenGL from either Apple or Kronos.

It is unlikely Vulkan would have improved the situation because the spec. wasn't finalised until Feb 2016 and the major features Mac Metal omitted are optional in the spec.. There are no guarantees that it would be any different to where we are now.

Maybe you should ask yourself realistically what API should be used to port a game to macOS that makes full use of the graphical capabilities of other modern operating systems and/or hardware: the massively outdated OpenGL 4.1 or the massively underdeveloped Metal?

Metal has some rough edges and it is still maturing, but massively underdeveloped? No - incomplete maybe, but Mac gaming isn't doomed and Metal isn't a failure yet. Games development takes time, usually measured in years and we're now in a situation where the old 90-90 rule very much applies - most things work, the challenge now is debugging and optimising each game as it comes so they can ship. On every game I've ever worked on this takes longer than you'd like.

Let me repeat what I said before: Overwatch, Elite Dangerous: Horizons and F1 2015 were only the beginning. The writing's on the wall.

The first time I worked at Feral in 2005-2006 a similar thing happened during the PPC->Intel transition. There were several years where it was extremely hard to get Mac games out and it tended to take longer so releases were of slightly older titles. Granted we didn't lose a Blizzard release - but that may more to do with the GPU power balance in Apple's hardware install base - Intel integrated GPUs weren't common back then. It is also very noticeably now when we lose AAA games because there are so few on any platform.

Provided that Apple & developers work together on Metal for their games this lull should not last. If everyone takes your view then it'll be the end, but that's definitely *not* how we're approaching it at Epic and its hardly in Feral or Aspyr's interest to do so either.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Irishman and Borin
Apple had to have a hard transition from their OpenGL to something else - it was always going to be tricky for a while. They weren't in the luxurious position of Microsoft who can allow a slow transition to D3D12 because D3D11 is good enough for most games.

Monetarily, Apple is in a BETTER position than Microsoft. Apple COULD have finished OpenGL's spec to 4.5 allowing the smoothest possible transition. They could have had OpenGL updated YEARS AGO. They chose to do NOTHING. How can a company that reached the pinnacle of tech companies (rated #1 on/off) NOT be able to do something as simple as keeping hardware updated (when was the last refresh of the Mac Pro, for example?) and the the 3D API current with the latest specs? It's RIDICULOUS for a company with that much money that could easily afford to hire some more programmers for that purpose (and honestly how hard would it be to keep the Mac Pro current or at least reduce it's price when it's hopelessly outdated already?) and there's no other decent way to put it. Hell, where's the MBP refresh, even? All I saw was another freaking iPhone, one that removed one of its best features (i.e. a headphone jack).

Apple development sucks anymore, IMO. In 2008, they were at the top of their game with the best MBP design with the most features. Snow Leopard was the most stable and fastest iteration of OS X when it was finalized. The iPhone was still new and vibrant. Now what do we have?

* The newest Mac Mini is SLOWER than the top Mac Mini from 2012 save the GPU and much MUCH harder to work on (to "encourage" you to buy an iMac of Mac Pro instead). But they don't update the Mac Pro in any timely fashion so that's not an option. Their support of USB-C is ridiculously uneven so far (here, but not there).

* They moved to 5K (not 4K like the standard, so all 4K games would have to be scaled which NEVER looks as good as native and which cannot be output with current ports to an external monitor. All just to say Apple got "there" first even though the industry was looking to jump from 4K to 8K, not an odd number 5K. But their GPUs can barely handle 5K for the GUI, let alone anything else. It's a glorified high-resolution web browser, except that the GUI is merely "doubled" really so it's overall appeal is rather dubious, IMO.

*Apple doesn't support 4K movies on their computers through iTunes or their AppleTV, yet they brag about it on their iPhone....WTF!?!?

* iPhones moved to Lightning even though the industry was moving to USB-C. Apple has now removed the headphone jack and Lightning isn't a "standard" so it's $$$$ if you lose your "free" adapter that will cost you $29 in the future.

* Instead of buying something high-end quality for the money like Grado, Apple chose to buy "Beats" which IMO was to try and improve its "hipness" despite its technical shortcomings (more exaggerated bass doesn't equal high fidelity). They claim no headphone jack is because there's something "better" yet Bluetooth is lower fidelity and iTunes still doesn't even sell music with "lossless" quality even though Internet bandwidth has made this feasible YEARS AGO (Apple Lossless would take no time at all to download albums today). How is music "better" with anything Apple has done? "Mastered for iTunes" means LOUD LOUD LOUD (low dynamic range typically means lower sound quality, not better).

* Apple moved the OS X (now relabeled "macOS") GUI to a "flat" look but broke most GUI usability rules in the process (e.g. I still cannot tell if Spotlight is doing anything when I type something until a result shows up since it has no busy indicator anymore so a slow result looks like it's locked up or not doing anything).

Hell, show me one move Apple has made that has been technically sound since Steve Jobs died.... I'd love to see even one example, really. They needed Metal just to make up for the FACT that Yosemite was so flipping SLOW compared to Mavericks and Mountain Lion!!!! Rotational drive support took a nose dive in Yosemite and El Capitan (seems a bit better on the last update or two). Was this to encourage SSD adoption? That's hard to believe given they seemed to be moving to all SSD at first, but then brought back a slower GPU and rotational drive standards on the iMac with the next update! It makes no sense. There is no consistency. Someone should be fired, IMO (and Jony Ive and Tim Cook would be my first choices).

It is unlikely Vulkan would have improved the situation because the spec. wasn't finalised until Feb 2016 and the major features Mac Metal omitted are optional in the spec.. There are no guarantees that it would be any different to where we are now.

The fact remains that Apple is stronger with an industry standard. If they want Metal to succeed, they should make it a free open source standard to encourage Linux and even Windows to adopt it, not create yet another Apple only protocol that no one else uses and therefore finds very little software support.

Metal has some rough edges and it is still maturing, but massively underdeveloped? No - incomplete maybe, but Mac gaming isn't doomed and Metal isn't a failure yet.

YET is the key word. Apple has a history of starting new "exciting" things and then just letting them stagnate and/or rot and then either ditch or remake them with fewer features and worse options (e.g. Mac Pro, Final Cut Pro, Xserve).
 
Monetarily, Apple is in a BETTER position than Microsoft. Apple COULD have finished OpenGL's spec to 4.5 allowing the smoothest possible transition. They could have had OpenGL updated YEARS AGO. They chose to do NOTHING. How can a company that reached the pinnacle of tech companies (rated #1 on/off) NOT be able to do something as simple as keeping hardware updated (when was the last refresh of the Mac Pro, for example?) and the the 3D API current with the latest specs? It's RIDICULOUS for a company with that much money that could easily afford to hire some more programmers for that purpose (and honestly how hard would it be to keep the Mac Pro current or at least reduce it's price when it's hopelessly outdated already?) and there's no other decent way to put it. Hell, where's the MBP refresh, even? All I saw was another freaking iPhone, one that removed one of its best features (i.e. a headphone jack).

Apple development sucks anymore, IMO. In 2008, they were at the top of their game with the best MBP design with the most features. Snow Leopard was the most stable and fastest iteration of OS X when it was finalized. The iPhone was still new and vibrant. Now what do we have?

* The newest Mac Mini is SLOWER than the top Mac Mini from 2012 save the GPU and much MUCH harder to work on (to "encourage" you to buy an iMac of Mac Pro instead). But they don't update the Mac Pro in any timely fashion so that's not an option. Their support of USB-C is ridiculously uneven so far (here, but not there).

* They moved to 5K (not 4K like the standard, so all 4K games would have to be scaled which NEVER looks as good as native and which cannot be output with current ports to an external monitor. All just to say Apple got "there" first even though the industry was looking to jump from 4K to 8K, not an odd number 5K. But their GPUs can barely handle 5K for the GUI, let alone anything else. It's a glorified high-resolution web browser, except that the GUI is merely "doubled" really so it's overall appeal is rather dubious, IMO.

*Apple doesn't support 4K movies on their computers through iTunes or their AppleTV, yet they brag about it on their iPhone....WTF!?!?

* iPhones moved to Lightning even though the industry was moving to USB-C. Apple has now removed the headphone jack and Lightning isn't a "standard" so it's $$$$ if you lose your "free" adapter that will cost you $29 in the future.

* Instead of buying something high-end quality for the money like Grado, Apple chose to buy "Beats" which IMO was to try and improve its "hipness" despite its technical shortcomings (more exaggerated bass doesn't equal high fidelity). They claim no headphone jack is because there's something "better" yet Bluetooth is lower fidelity and iTunes still doesn't even sell music with "lossless" quality even though Internet bandwidth has made this feasible YEARS AGO (Apple Lossless would take no time at all to download albums today). How is music "better" with anything Apple has done? "Mastered for iTunes" means LOUD LOUD LOUD (low dynamic range typically means lower sound quality, not better).

* Apple moved the OS X (now relabeled "macOS") GUI to a "flat" look but broke most GUI usability rules in the process (e.g. I still cannot tell if Spotlight is doing anything when I type something until a result shows up since it has no busy indicator anymore so a slow result looks like it's locked up or not doing anything).

Hell, show me one move Apple has made that has been technically sound since Steve Jobs died.... I'd love to see even one example, really. They needed Metal just to make up for the FACT that Yosemite was so flipping SLOW compared to Mavericks and Mountain Lion!!!! Rotational drive support took a nose dive in Yosemite and El Capitan (seems a bit better on the last update or two). Was this to encourage SSD adoption? That's hard to believe given they seemed to be moving to all SSD at first, but then brought back a slower GPU and rotational drive standards on the iMac with the next update! It makes no sense. There is no consistency. Someone should be fired, IMO (and Jony Ive and Tim Cook would be my first choices).



The fact remains that Apple is stronger with an industry standard. If they want Metal to succeed, they should make it a free open source standard to encourage Linux and even Windows to adopt it, not create yet another Apple only protocol that no one else uses and therefore finds very little software support.



YET is the key word. Apple has a history of starting new "exciting" things and then just letting them stagnate and/or rot and then either ditch or remake them with fewer features and worse options (e.g. Mac Pro, Final Cut Pro, Xserve).


If you put as much passion into coming up with things Apple SHOULD do, instead of what they shouldn't do, you'd have a shot at being their freaking CEO! Why don't you make a list of 10 things that - if Apple does them - they win?
 
That's a claim that gets made since the advent of Boot Camp – 10 years ago! – but it doesn't hold water: there have been more native Mac game releases (by porting companies and first-party) per year after 2006 than before.

The current dearth of triple-A Mac games is simply due to OS X's lacking graphics APIs. The developers simply have reached the limits of what they can do with the outdated OpenGL 4.1 and Apple's proprietary OpenGL ES replacement Metal. Overwatch, Elite Dangerous: Horizons and F1 2015 were only the first games not coming to the Mac because of this, and they won't be the last ones.

Elite Dangerous is on mac. ED:horizons is merely a DLC.
 
Person A: "There are no game using Metal!"
Person B: "WoW uses Metal"
Person A: "WoW has cartoony graphics and doesn't count, every other game using Metal runs badly!"

Every discussion about Metal.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Irishman
SM5 support in UE4 4.13 is based on…
Mark, I know you seem to be pretty taken by Metal, the thing is just… I don't buy it.

"The proof is in the pudding", they say, and currently, there isn't even pudding, let alone proof.

Remember when Apple introduced Metal for Mac more than a year ago, and everybody was convinced it was a game changer (no pun intended) and gushed about how powerful Metal were and how easy it were to get there apps running on it? I remember this being said pretty much verbatim during the presentations by AutoDesk, Adobe, and yes, also Epic.

And yet, somehow, every of these struggled to actually release anything running on Metal for the longest part of the last 12 months.

Fact is, after these 12 months, you can still count all the apps using Metal for Mac pretty much on two hands. And it's even worse when just considering games. There are just these two examples I mentioned (WoW and Obduction). Even Epic doesn't use Metal in their own UE4 games – Shadow Complex and the new Unreal Tournament – despite both having been released or having received major updates after the engine gained Metal support.

How is this not a failure?

In the meantime, DirectX 12 is gaining traction, Vulkan gets officially released, and almost immediately the first games get appropriate updates, even if still partly experimental. The UE4 quickly got Vulkan support, too, although admittedly not yet complete.

Will Metal get some important improvements with Sierra? So it seems. Will these be sufficient? So far, we have nothing but your word on it.

Will Apple improve Metal further in the future? Most likely, but at what pace? How long until it is really competitive to the other graphics APIs? Another twelve months? Two years? Five years? How long until DirectX 13 or Vulkan 2.0 get released and Apple starts to play catch up again?

Will Feral and Aspyr come around to get a grasp on Metal and release their first games using it? Probably. What other choice do they have?

But what about the indie developers that provide first-party ports of their games and use their own engines, like Flying Wild Hog (Shadow Warrior) or CroTeam (Serious Sam, The Talos Principle)? Do you actually think they will start porting their games to a proprietary graphics API that does several things in its own weird special ways, and is used only on tiny fraction of the market?

Elite Dangerous is on mac. ED:horizons is merely a DLC.
"Merely a DLC" that considerably alters the gameplay and adds significant new requirements to the graphics API, which Apple's do not meet.
 
Last edited:
If you put as much passion into coming up with things Apple SHOULD do, instead of what they shouldn't do, you'd have a shot at being their freaking CEO! Why don't you make a list of 10 things that - if Apple does them - they win?

Yeah, sure I would. But it's not that difficult either.

1> Fix the GUI convention problems.

-Regardless whether they maintain the "flat" look or not. Put busy indicators back where they belong. Make it obvious where window overlaps are. Make inactive windows DARK not "light" which makes no sense. Continue development of "dark mode" options (if Microsoft can manage this, so can Apple). Fix missing options like RAID (supposedly Sierra will at least do this, but there was no excuse for it to be missing in the first place).


2> Fix the hardware problems.

-Make sure that the Mac Pro and Mac Mini get at least yearly updates, even if it's just minor bumps (i.e. faster GPU included, a larger hard drive and/or ram or CPU). Don't build them with the expectation every user will replace them every single year, though.

-Don't purposely make them hard to open or upgrade. In fact, most users will appreciate it if they are designed to be easily user upgraded, even if the user never does this. Offer these upgrades for reasonable prices at Apple Stores so that squeamish users don't have to open it even if it is easier. It's a Win Win in terms of publicity, reputation and still getting upgrades.

-Offer a gaming level Mac with built-in Boot Camp ready to go. This could be a slightly larger Mac Mini with mid to high-end GPU. Go one better. Make it a standard connection so the user can take it to the Apple Store to have it upgraded the following year or upgrade it themselves. The goal should be to expand gaming on the platform (hard to do worse than they have) as it's an unfilled market. It would only take a short step from here to get a gaming console out of the same system with remote controls (i.e. Bluetooth connections for controllers, keyboards, driving consoles etc.). Why use iOS when "macOS" is so much better? Apple is HUGE now. Why don't they offer a competitive console gaming device? Why don't they make AppleTV into a 4K killer gaming machine with a cheaper model for movies light stuff only? Don't ask if it will sell! DO IT! Make it sell!

-Fix audio issues on iOS devices. This is a driver level and possibly hardware issue. I should be able to play my lossless CD collection at 44.1kHz instead of having to resample it to 48kHz. 24-bit audio should play with 24-bit output resolution, etc. This is SO 2006 and a decade late. The first AppleTV could at least do 44.1kHz and 48kHz output. Macs can do 16/44 to 24/192 with no issue. Why is iOS so freaking dumb?

-Put a freaking CAMERA on AppleTV so it can do Facetime and/or Skype calls. Make the camera detachable so you can set it wherever you want it. Better yet, have a freaking USB-C port on the device! Stop worrying about people using your devices for things you don't intend. That's a positive thing, not a negative. Stop being so damn overbearing controlling. The point is that I should be able to make video calls from my large screen TV when I want to.

-Move everything to USB-C and Macs to Thunderbolt III with USB-C but keep some legacy USB ports and the like for larger desktops, etc. when there's room so the transition is easier. Offer an official Apple "Hub" for Thunderbolt III with a GPU option and lots of traditional ports on it with a one-wire connection. Some of us are waiting for this. Stop stalling and wasting time on removing headphone jacks!

-Put the damn headphone jack back on the next model and apologize, at least on the larger model iPhone where there's no excuse for "no room". The arguments against waterproofing are nonsense. Greed is the only clear motivation to try and push Beats and Bluetooth sales.

-Get rid of Lightning NOW (realistically next year as it's too late for the iPhone 7). Move to USB-C. it's a STANDARD and it will suck to be at the airport in the near future with only USB-C ports available and you'll need yet another dongle to connect an iPhone. Ridiculous and pointless. USB-C is small enough. Phones don't need to any thinner as human hands aren't getting smaller.


3> Offer quality audio on the iTunes store. It's absolutely freaking RIDICULOUS that it's 2016 and there isn't even 1982 quality digital audio available on the iTunes store.

-iTunes sales are down and their solution is subscriptions to a "Radio" ? I'm not against a "Radio" option, but I don't agree it's the "future" of all audio. I personally despise Radio in general and not owning my own songs when they're not expensive and I have limited tastes is dumb. It's going to be good for some and dumb for others so why ignore the limited markets when you can improve them?

-In other words, offer LOSSLESS Audio for starters. At the very least, sell music in Apple Lossless at Redbook CD standards (i.e. 16/44). This is simple to do technically (CDs are already mastered and can be transferred with no loss to this format). Offer NEW albums at something better (20/48 is sufficient; anything else is technically inaudible, but 24/96 and even 24/192 "sound" (forgive the pun) like they would be better. There's no reason not to do it but some moron mentality that you don't sell music at "studio resolution". That's a load of horse crap. Your goal is to sell music so SELL IT (and RENT it to those that prefer subscriptions and offer the better quality there as well).


4> The Apple Watch is stupid.

-DITCH IT. Most of us stopped wearing watches when the iPhone came out anyway. What is the iPhone but a large pocket watch when not in use? I'm convinced this is simply a matter of "Gee, we need a NEW product. What can we do? What will be the next big thing?" Well, it's not a fracking watch, Apple.


5> Stop doing home automation half-arsed.

-IF you are going to do it, then make controls and devices for everything you'd want them for and make them reasonable. Put controls in AppleTV, the iPhone and if you're not going to get rid of it, the Apple Watch and give it voice control! Home automation COULD be a "big thing" but it's not going to get there with little more offer than over-priced colored "mood" light bulbs! This should be an Apple-wide system. If you have a Mac, an App should be in that room for voice control. If you have an AppleTV, it should have voice control (and I mean hands-free). Even Airport Express units should have a microphone for this purpose. You should be able to go anywhere in your house and control that room and it should not cost you more for rooms without controls (i.e. use the Mac in the den; make automation a semi-sleep enabled app so it's listening). What good is networking if you don't use it and force people to buy expensive separate control units for everything? Make them USB-C and move everything to USB-C.

-Eventually tie a centralized server control your entire house, home networking and terminals in each room fronted by AppleTV type units for various tasks (short of gaming units, you don't need a world of power just to do the Web, Facebook and Face Time!). Offer Macs for more power experiences and power users. The desktop is not going away just because most people don't need it for everything.

-Apple should be a continuous experience from home to car to office so you don't want anything else! iOS should continue to interface more with macOS to make it more seamless. Voice interfaces without even having to remove the phone from your pocket when you walk into a room with a TV while transferring over the relevant data to secure devices should be the norm at home. (See Face Time / Skype over "Apple TV" like devices above). Don't price it out of the stratosphere at first either. Get the market first. Apple misses this opportunity every time.


6> Bring back the PROS where possible.

-Apple lost a large segment of the video/audio market with that ridiculous new Mac Pro which they refuse to update (shock shock). Many won't want to come back, but you make it a lot easier if they restore internal PCI slots to a true "Pro" model. There's no reason for that garbage can look and it didn't sell big. Make a sleek "Pro" model and ditch the garbage can. Keep a team on Pro Apps ALL THE TIME. Pro Apps are a lightning rod for consumers. "Did you know that Macs are used in music production?" "I want THAT machine!"

-Was XServe such a bad idea or did Apple simply not know what the hell they were doing? There is no reason a UNIX based OS like macOS can't compete. Use a special networking version of OS X and license it for FREE. Outsource the hardware production and don't worry about anything but breaking even until you get a substantial market share. Make it easier to set up and control and more reliable. Pass the improvements on to the Home Sever App.

7> Clearly, the next big thing is going to be Virtual Reality sooner or later.

-Letting everyone else get ahead of you on this isn't a great idea. The experience isn't there yet, but Apple needs to be preparing behind the scenes for the right moment. The key is not release it before it's ready. The ability to sell anything from virtual vacations to virtual sex to virtual real estate in a socialized virtual reality is going to give all those people who are riding in automated cars something to do on the way to work or grandma's house. I personally hate social media, but I'm not blind to the fact the rest of the world is ADDICTED TO IT. Anything addictive that's legal is something you should be selling. Apple isn't even really in the game right now other than offering devices that can run the Apps. They've proven bad at it before because they build something and then they ignore it and they overcharge for everything. Not every single thing a company does has to be a profit leader. You want to bring people into your ecosphere and there should be range of products for this purpose leading up to higher profit margin items.


This is just all off the top of my head.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fnord and Nermal
How do you manage to get yourself out of the bed in the morning? You seem so damn depressed.

This is what I picture when I read this:

this-is-fine.0.jpg
 
Mark, I know you seem to be pretty taken by Metal, the thing is just… I don't buy it.

"The proof is in the pudding", they say, and currently, there isn't even pudding, let alone proof.

Remember when Apple introduced Metal for Mac more than a year ago, and everybody was convinced it was a game changer (no pun intended) and gushed about how powerful Metal were and how easy it were to get there apps running on it? I remember this being said pretty much verbatim during the presentations by AutoDesk, Adobe, and yes, also Epic.

And yet, somehow, every of these struggled to actually release anything running on Metal for the longest part of the last 12 months.

Fact is, after these 12 months, you can still count all the apps using Metal for Mac pretty much on two hands. And it's even worse when just considering games. There are just these two examples I mentioned (WoW and Obduction). Even Epic doesn't use Metal in their own UE4 games – Shadow Complex and the new Unreal Tournament – despite both having been released or having received major updates after the engine gained Metal support.

How is this not a failure?

In the meantime, DirectX 12 is gaining traction, Vulkan gets officially released, and almost immediately the first games get appropriate updates, even if still partly experimental. The UE4 quickly got Vulkan support, too, although admittedly not yet complete.

Will Metal get some important improvements with Sierra? So it seems. Will these be sufficient? So far, we have nothing but your word on it.

Will Apple improve Metal further in the future? Most likely, but at what pace? How long until it is really competitive to the other graphics APIs? Another twelve months? Two years? Five years? How long until DirectX 13 or Vulkan 2.0 get released and Apple starts to play catch up again?

Will Feral and Aspyr come around to get a grasp on Metal and release their first games using it? Probably. What other choice do they have?

But what about the indie developers that provide first-party ports of their games and use their own engines, like Flying Wild Hog (Shadow Warrior) or CroTeam (Serious Sam, The Talos Principle)? Do you actually think they will start porting their games to a proprietary graphics API that does several things in its own weird special ways, and is used only on tiny fraction of the market?


"Merely a DLC" that considerably alters the gameplay and adds significant new requirements to the graphics API, which Apple's do not meet.



Janichsan,

Are you a developer?
[doublepost=1473731205][/doublepost]
It's their 20th anniversary today, and they're giving away an iMac and their whole catalog "until 2017."

Just learned about it while watching their Twitch stream from earlier today.
 
There are just these two examples I mentioned (WoW and Obduction). Even Epic doesn't use Metal in their own UE4 games – Shadow Complex and the new Unreal Tournament – despite both having been released or having received major updates after the engine gained Metal support.

Please refrain from repeating this false statement sir - I corrected you above before but once again with feeling:
Fortnite was the first UE4 game to ship using Metal way back in January 2016. Granted it is Beta, but so is Cyan's Obduction. We also made Metal the default renderer for UE4Editor on Mac in UE4 4.11 shortly after Fortnite's Metal update and we've made significant improvements in both 4.12 and 4.13. UT should be on Metal but for scheduling conflicts - that's a personal sore spot as there's no technical reason it couldn't be (and can be if built locally from source!).

As for Shadow Complex Remastered - it is still a UE3 game and Metal support is only for UE4, so that game obviously can't use Metal.

Monetarily, Apple is in a BETTER position than Microsoft. Apple COULD have finished OpenGL's spec to 4.5 allowing the smoothest possible transition. They could have had OpenGL updated YEARS AGO. They chose to do NOTHING.

You know I was talking about technical position, not financial. Graphics stacks aren't something you can just throw more bodies at - you need really, really specialised knowledge and programming skill and you can't buy experience of a proprietary code base with cash.

Microsoft were in the luxurious position of being able to leverage decades of leadership in the field and wisely rebooted D3D in 2007 with D3D10, giving them a cleaner base to build D3D12 from. That makes for an easier transition than Apple were always going to have.

Mark, I know you seem to be pretty taken by Metal, the thing is just… I don't buy it.

I know my job Janichsan and who to complain to. I also know the alternatives Apple could have turned to. Updating GL had clearly become a herculean task and Vulkan wasn't even finalised until long after Metal shipped on Mac never mind iOS. Metal might not be perfect but then what is?

I do remember QuickDraw 3D/QuickDraw 3D RAVE being launched by Amelio - and I also remember Jobs mercy killing it after years of wilful neglect (in favour of OpenGL). I am not unaware of where the fear comes from. In the meantime we all just have to go along for the ride.

How is this not a failure?

In the meantime, DirectX 12 is gaining traction, Vulkan gets officially released, and almost immediately the first games get appropriate updates, even if still partly experimental. The UE4 quickly got Vulkan support, too, although admittedly not yet complete.

Remember that there are only four games using Vulkan on Windows - it takes real effort to support a new graphics stack from everyone involved and I'm not sure you appreciate how hard it really is. It has been more difficult to get Metal games out than I'd hoped but I don't consider that a failure. It is an inevitable part of software development and games development in particular. That's why I linked to the 90-90 rule...

So to bring this back toward the topic: Aspyr may be feeling the same pinch but I really, truly don't expect these problems to last and they'll re-emerge.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Irishman
I think it holds plenty of water, unfortunately. The reason you've seen so many more game releases for OS X since then is the "blow-back" from that decision of Apple's to go Intel and support Boot Camp. You've got all the little Indie developers who like the Mac and are motivated to write a game for OS X just BECAUSE they feel there's not enough support for the platform anymore. Steam makes it relatively easy to give your game title a fighting chance at some recognition - since you're not stuck trying to sell it via your own web site that people may never visit.

But when I fire up Steam and browse every title that supports my Mac, the list shows hundreds of games I'd call "junk" or "casual gaming at best" and would never buy or play. The games the Mac users I know are actually proud to own are usually the big name titles like the Bioshock series, or Deus Ex, Tomb Raider or Call of Duty MW2. That's the stuff that's really lacking, post Boot Camp. Of course exceptions exist, like World of Goo. I'm not bashing the small developers here. I'm just saying - the landscape for Mac is a lot like what Linux users deal with today. It attracts the hard core developers who work on a project on their own, or with a very small team and budget. A minority of them will manage to produce a smash hit of a game. Many others will make something that has a really limited audience, or is frankly just a mediocre release that helped them learn to code better - but won't excite many gamers.

And claims that the limits have been reached with the OS X graphics APIs? IMO, that's just an excuse. The limitations on making a game work on a Playstation 4 are more difficult to code around than making a game work on the Mac. The GPU in a PS4 is equivalent to an NVidia GTX 580, 660, or 660 Ti - according to Tom's Hardware, and we know the PS4 has 8GB of RAM in it, which isn't any more than most Macs today have either. I played No Man's Sky on PS4 and those graphics are surely within the capabilities of a modern Mac to reproduce. I doubt most of the developers have really TRIED to learn the new Metal API in OS X. There's just a lack of interest.



That's a claim that gets made since the advent of Boot Camp – 10 years ago! – but it doesn't hold water: there have been more native Mac game releases (by porting companies and first-party) per year after 2006 than before.

The current dearth of triple-A Mac games is simply due to OS X's lacking graphics APIs. The developers simply have reached the limits of what they can do with the outdated OpenGL 4.1 and Apple's proprietary OpenGL ES replacement Metal. Overwatch, Elite Dangerous: Horizons and F1 2015 were only the first games not coming to the Mac because of this, and they won't be the last ones.
 
Has anyone else noticed that Aspyr hasn't released anything new for the Mac (or Linux) since Layers of Fear in February other than some patches like pointless achievements in Fahrenheit (the game is almost linear so what's the point as it has ZERO replay value). I've been waiting to see some METAL support for over a year now and the only thing I've seen is a WoW game I don't care about. Seeing Borderlands 2 or Pre-Sequel run faster or a Mac port of the original would be 100x cooler than "Achievements" in Fahrenheit. I guess the Mac has run its gaming course (as if it even had one). I guess hoping anyone will port Dragon Age Inquisition is a waste of time. Time to go to the world of Playstation I guess.

Hmmm, this article proved to be a total dud (I guess Metal = no more releases before I die of old age): https://www.aspyr.com/news/show?article=WWDC+2015:+Why+Metal+for+Mac+OS+X+is+a+Big+Deal+for+Mac+Gaming

Some REALLY big stuff coming soon. We are head down on 5+ projects right now.
 
We are also celebrating our 20th birthday this week :) As a big thank you to the Mac community that made 20 years possible, you guys will soon see a bunch of fun news on what got us here, and where we are going. You'll also see one of the biggest sales in Mac gaming history.

As to the topic of this thread, I've been around for 10 of those years, and I have seen a couple other periods of Mac content lulls similar to the past 6-12 months. Each time, the industry had a technology shift which created new hurdles and new opportunities. What I can promise is Aspyr (and Feral) will be at the forefront of solving those challenges for Mac gaming. Both of us are pretty damn good at it ;)
 
You know I was talking about technical position, not financial. Graphics stacks aren't something you can just throw more bodies at - you need really, really specialised knowledge and programming skill and you can't buy experience of a proprietary code base with cash.

Sorry, but I don't really buy that argument. By what you're suggesting, no developer on earth can get into coding APIs that wasn't in it from the beginning or something. If you offer lots of money, talent will come. One of Apple's biggest problems is that it keeps moving people from OS X to iOS and back again. It may take some time to get newer hires up to speed on the code, but the long term investment would be worth it if it means they can keep projects on track. I think there are plenty of say Vulkan developers that could be persuaded to either develop a version for OS X or work on Metal with a nice solid offer. Why work for free when you can make a lot of money? Some Linux developers might stick to principles, but many are doing it on the side with little time to put into it because they've got another job to work in order to pay the bills. I know I'd rather be making money writing music each day than working on industrial equipment, but so far I can't get it to take off.

In the case of OS X, however, I feel they have gone the opposite way. They're doing too many "major" updates that offer very little in "real" improvements, IMO. It also makes "macOS" unstable. Yet they feel this need to push something out every year anyway. I'd prefer they go to a two year cycle or release when ready. Microsoft is now following suit and people freaking HATE IT (because Microsoft forces updates). Apple doesn't force updates, but they do NAG NAG NAG on iOS (there is NEVER an "ignore" or "skip this version" option, always "install LATER" even when you don't want it EVER. And I mean like ONE DAY at most later. It ticks me off, personally). With OS X, it's been a lot better (so far) in that regard, but ultimately developers dumping support for older OS versions forces the issue sooner or later (or many people would still be using Snow Leopard).

Microsoft were in the luxurious position of being able to leverage decades of leadership in the field and wisely rebooted D3D in 2007 with D3D10, giving them a cleaner base to build D3D12 from. That makes for an easier transition than Apple were always going to have.

That just doesn't excuse a decade of neglect on Apple's part. They could have (and should have) kept OpenGL up-to-date and graphics drivers up-to-date. NVidia can manage. Why can't the richest tech company in the world manage? You claim money has nothing to do with it and I call BS. Porting OpenGL isn't that monumental a task. Apple simply didn't give a crap about it or gaming in general and never has. Why they ignore what traditionally was a large market segment for Windows is utterly beyond me, especially after the move to Intel where getting good support wouldn't have been that hard. Quite the contrary, some companies complained loudly that Apple announced better support in 2007/2008, but then didn't follow through. Depending on things like slow Cider conversions on a platform that is already hampered by slow GPUs and outdated drivers just wasn't going to work. At the very least, they could have offered a "gaming model" (i.e. GOOD GPU) that would enable much better Mac gaming and excellent Boot Camp gaming.

I know my job Janichsan and who to complain to. I also know the alternatives Apple could have turned to. Updating GL had clearly become a herculean task

There's nothing clear about it. It's Open Source. OS X runs on UNIX. The hard work was already done. All they had to do was keep the port updated. If open source developers can keep it updated, surely the richest tech company in the world could. If they had hired people in 2008, they would have 8 years experience by now.... Never hiring = never getting new people with experience since NO ONE is going to work on OS X if they aren't employed by Apple (unlike Linux).

Interesting points but nothing on topic. This thread is about Aspyr, right?

Maybe the moderators hate tangents, but as the thread starter I don't mind them as long as they relate to the bigger picture of gaming on the Mac. In other words, Aspyr is simply one of the largest game developers for the Mac and hence I noticed their absence. The bigger question to me is METAL and whether we'll see more than a couple of titles using it. Aspyr, in particular announced support for it and hinted they might update some of the older big engines to use it as well if there was a big benefit. We're talking about a company that brought KOTOR 2 to the Mac last year (personally I love to see older titles appear for the Mac as they always have enough GPU power and it's one less reason to keep VMWare or another Windows machine around just to run older Windows games).
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fnord
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.