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Some REALLY big stuff coming soon. We are head down on 5+ projects right now.

We are also celebrating our 20th birthday this week :) As a big thank you to the Mac community that made 20 years possible, you guys will soon see a bunch of fun news on what got us here, and where we are going. You'll also see one of the biggest sales in Mac gaming history.

Great news!

As to the topic of this thread, I've been around for 10 of those years, and I have seen a couple other periods of Mac content lulls similar to the past 6-12 months. Each time, the industry had a technology shift which created new hurdles and new opportunities. What I can promise is Aspyr (and Feral) will be at the forefront of solving those challenges for Mac gaming. Both of us are pretty damn good at it ;)

Precisely.
 
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Maybe the moderators hate tangents, but as the thread starter I don't mind them as long as they relate to the bigger picture of gaming on the Mac. In other words, Aspyr is simply one of the largest game developers for the Mac and hence I noticed their absence. The bigger question to me is METAL and whether we'll see more than a couple of titles using it. Aspyr, in particular announced support for it and hinted they might update some of the older big engines to use it as well if there was a big benefit. We're talking about a company that brought KOTOR 2 to the Mac last year (personally I love to see older titles appear for the Mac as they always have enough GPU power and it's one less reason to keep VMWare or another Windows machine around just to run older Windows games).

Feral just announced Deus Ex Mankind Divided is coming to macOS. And look, it's using metal.
 
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Sorry, but I don't really buy that argument. By what you're suggesting, no developer on earth can get into coding APIs that wasn't in it from the beginning or something. If you offer lots of money, talent will come. One of Apple's biggest problems is that it keeps moving people from OS X to iOS and back again. It may take some time to get newer hires up to speed on the code, but the long term investment would be worth it if it means they can keep projects on track. I think there are plenty of say Vulkan developers that could be persuaded to either develop a version for OS X or work on Metal with a nice solid offer. Why work for free when you can make a lot of money? Some Linux developers might stick to principles, but many are doing it on the side with little time to put into it because they've got another job to work in order to pay the bills. I know I'd rather be making money writing music each day than working on industrial equipment, but so far I can't get it to take off.

In the case of OS X, however, I feel they have gone the opposite way. They're doing too many "major" updates that offer very little in "real" improvements, IMO. It also makes "macOS" unstable. Yet they feel this need to push something out every year anyway. I'd prefer they go to a two year cycle or release when ready. Microsoft is now following suit and people freaking HATE IT (because Microsoft forces updates). Apple doesn't force updates, but they do NAG NAG NAG on iOS (there is NEVER an "ignore" or "skip this version" option, always "install LATER" even when you don't want it EVER. And I mean like ONE DAY at most later. It ticks me off, personally). With OS X, it's been a lot better (so far) in that regard, but ultimately developers dumping support for older OS versions forces the issue sooner or later (or many people would still be using Snow Leopard).



That just doesn't excuse a decade of neglect on Apple's part. They could have (and should have) kept OpenGL up-to-date and graphics drivers up-to-date. NVidia can manage. Why can't the richest tech company in the world manage? You claim money has nothing to do with it and I call BS. Porting OpenGL isn't that monumental a task. Apple simply didn't give a crap about it or gaming in general and never has. Why they ignore what traditionally was a large market segment for Windows is utterly beyond me, especially after the move to Intel where getting good support wouldn't have been that hard. Quite the contrary, some companies complained loudly that Apple announced better support in 2007/2008, but then didn't follow through. Depending on things like slow Cider conversions on a platform that is already hampered by slow GPUs and outdated drivers just wasn't going to work. At the very least, they could have offered a "gaming model" (i.e. GOOD GPU) that would enable much better Mac gaming and excellent Boot Camp gaming.



There's nothing clear about it. It's Open Source. OS X runs on UNIX. The hard work was already done. All they had to do was keep the port updated. If open source developers can keep it updated, surely the richest tech company in the world could. If they had hired people in 2008, they would have 8 years experience by now.... Never hiring = never getting new people with experience since NO ONE is going to work on OS X if they aren't employed by Apple (unlike Linux).



Maybe the moderators hate tangents, but as the thread starter I don't mind them as long as they relate to the bigger picture of gaming on the Mac. In other words, Aspyr is simply one of the largest game developers for the Mac and hence I noticed their absence. The bigger question to me is METAL and whether we'll see more than a couple of titles using it. Aspyr, in particular announced support for it and hinted they might update some of the older big engines to use it as well if there was a big benefit. We're talking about a company that brought KOTOR 2 to the Mac last year (personally I love to see older titles appear for the Mac as they always have enough GPU power and it's one less reason to keep VMWare or another Windows machine around just to run older Windows games).


Magnus, are you a developer?
 
Magnus, are you a developer?

I used to make computer pinball simulation games several years ago on the side, some of which got picked up commercially. I maintain and repair industrial electronic and machine equipment as my regular job.
 
That just doesn't excuse a decade of neglect on Apple's part. They could have (and should have) kept OpenGL up-to-date and graphics drivers up-to-date. NVidia can manage. Why can't the richest tech company in the world manage? You claim money has nothing to do with it and I call BS. Porting OpenGL isn't that monumental a task.

</snip>

There's nothing clear about it. It's Open Source. OS X runs on UNIX. The hard work was already done. All they had to do was keep the port updated. If open source developers can keep it updated, surely the richest tech company in the world could.

I intended to make the statement that by 2013 money alone could not fix the problems of Apple's OpenGL.

Apple's OpenGL stack is not a port from another platform. As I understand it, it started with an implementation created by another company (edit - found them: Conix, way back in 1999) in the 90's for Classic Mac OS and has been rewritten several times since. Apple weren't the richest company in the world back then and by the time of the iPhone they were already trailing the OpenGL spec. on Mac. Only they could answer why they didn't invest more from then on.

Nvidia do have a very robust GL stack on Windows and a decent one for Linux - but AMD's are roundly criticised (esp. on Linux - Feral's Linux games don't support them for e.g.) and the open-source implementations aren't any better, so its demonstrably hard to write and maintain a good OpenGL stack. That being said, Apple's GL not reaching the heights of Nvidia's Windows GL implementation was a constant source of frustration.

Sorry, but I don't really buy that argument. By what you're suggesting, no developer on earth can get into coding APIs that wasn't in it from the beginning or something. If you offer lots of money, talent will come. One of Apple's biggest problems is that it keeps moving people from OS X to iOS and back again. It may take some time to get newer hires up to speed on the code, but the long term investment would be worth it if it means they can keep projects on track.

</snip>

If they had hired people in 2008, they would have 8 years experience by now.... Never hiring = never getting new people with experience since NO ONE is going to work on OS X if they aren't employed by Apple (unlike Linux).

In principle I would agree - had Apple chosen to hire more able people to help earlier as you suggest it may have become easier - but that wasn't really my point. My statements were predicated on the relative technical positions and challenges of Apple's OpenGL vs. Microsoft's D3D11 circa 2013. By then Apple were trailing the GL spec. by about 3 years so had that continued we might just be getting GL 4.3/4.4 now in Sierra. At that point it was likely too late to throw new hires at the problem esp. if they had already decided to replace it.

Apple simply didn't give a crap about it or gaming in general and never has. Why they ignore what traditionally was a large market segment for Windows is utterly beyond me, especially after the move to Intel where getting good support wouldn't have been that hard. Quite the contrary, some companies complained loudly that Apple announced better support in 2007/2008, but then didn't follow through. Depending on things like slow Cider conversions on a platform that is already hampered by slow GPUs and outdated drivers just wasn't going to work. At the very least, they could have offered a "gaming model" (i.e. GOOD GPU) that would enable much better Mac gaming and excellent Boot Camp gaming.

Only Apple know about that.

Maybe the moderators hate tangents, but as the thread starter I don't mind them as long as they relate to the bigger picture of gaming on the Mac. In other words, Aspyr is simply one of the largest game developers for the Mac and hence I noticed their absence. The bigger question to me is METAL and whether we'll see more than a couple of titles using it. Aspyr, in particular announced support for it and hinted they might update some of the older big engines to use it as well if there was a big benefit. We're talking about a company that brought KOTOR 2 to the Mac last year (personally I love to see older titles appear for the Mac as they always have enough GPU power and it's one less reason to keep VMWare or another Windows machine around just to run older Windows games).

I think so long as the likes of Aspyr-Blair and my former colleagues at Feral are around there's hope for Mac gaming - esp. given of Aspyr-Blair's comments and Feral's DX:MD announcement.
 
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This thread probably should have ended with a retraction from OP after someone from Aspyr came in and explained what they were up to.

Heh
 
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This thread probably should have ended with a retraction from OP after someone from Aspyr came in and explained what they were up to.

Heh

I actually disagree. The OP has a very valid point and its getting to a larger challenge we are dealing with right now. I would have liked to see a little less tit for tat...but hey...its the internet :D
 
Some REALLY big stuff coming soon. We are head down on 5+ projects right now.

So, anyone wanna predict what these big projects are?

Here's how I'm calling it:

1. Borderlands 2 for Metal
2. Borderlands TPS for Metal
3. Doom for macOS/Metal
4. Call of Duty Black Ops 3 for macOS/Metal
5. Star Wars: Battlefront (so we can have this)

Your thoughts, guys?
 
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I'm really bad at making predictions, so instead I'll just wish for a Mac version of Demon's Souls, even though I know that that's not going to happen in a million years :(
 
And no Metal support defeats the entire point of El Capitan for the past year. Maybe 3-4 years from now after Apple has lost all remaining relevance? I don't really care since I don't play Civilization anyway, but I think it's a bit ridiculous that a year into it, there's almost nothing out there with it. Maybe Apple should have given developers more notice (i.e. odd they retrofit all of OS X's own calls by last year's release, but apparently few others can do anything with it). I'd like to see at least one retrofit that proves Metal is worth a damn because El Capitan is no faster than Mavericks was without Metal so WTF did Yosemite do to slow OS X down so much that it took Metal to make it usable again? WTF can't Apple program worth a damn anymore? Inquiring minds want to know.
 
Aspyr is not "dead" or sitting still. They just released (re-released) Jade Empire Special Edition for Mac, as of this week.

Sure, it's not a "new game". But the point is, Aspyr is still active.
 
And no Metal support defeats the entire point of El Capitan for the past year. Maybe 3-4 years from now after Apple has lost all remaining relevance? I don't really care since I don't play Civilization anyway, but I think it's a bit ridiculous that a year into it, there's almost nothing out there with it. Maybe Apple should have given developers more notice (i.e. odd they retrofit all of OS X's own calls by last year's release, but apparently few others can do anything with it). I'd like to see at least one retrofit that proves Metal is worth a damn because El Capitan is no faster than Mavericks was without Metal so WTF did Yosemite do to slow OS X down so much that it took Metal to make it usable again? WTF can't Apple program worth a damn anymore? Inquiring minds want to know.

Just Because Civ 6 isn't launching with metal support, doesn't mean other games aren't.

And what is your rant regarding Yosemite about?
 
And what is your rant regarding Yosemite about?

GUI type performance tanked in Yosemite on a lot of machines. Metal restored the speed in El Capitan, but my point is that it shouldn't have tanked in the first place (that Mavericks felt as fast as El Capitan here in typical GUI operations without the need for Metal and thus Metal should be even faster on the same hardware, not just making up for sludge created in Yosemite. OS X (or macOS) steadily seemed to get slower after Snow Leopard where all prior versions of OS X to Leopard/Snow Leopard were faster and almost always subjectively "better". Other than Metal and dark mode, I've seen mostly features designed to make the iPhone work better with the Mac or the Mac more like an iPhone. I've seen very little mainstream improvements. Metal was the one thing that was supposed to make a big difference, especially for gaming since OS X's OpenGL support and drivers have always been abysmal compared to Windows with DirectX.

Put succinctly, some of us would like to see OS X (macOS) surpass Windows in "all" areas, not just "some" areas, but instead I've seen Windows start matching OS X features (like "Spaces/Mission Control") and become more Mac like while OS X just piddles with "flat" GUIs that break conventions and more phone crap.
 
GUI type performance tanked in Yosemite on a lot of machines. Metal restored the speed in El Capitan, but my point is that it shouldn't have tanked in the first place (that Mavericks felt as fast as El Capitan here in typical GUI operations without the need for Metal and thus Metal should be even faster on the same hardware, not just making up for sludge created in Yosemite. OS X (or macOS) steadily seemed to get slower after Snow Leopard where all prior versions of OS X to Leopard/Snow Leopard were faster and almost always subjectively "better". Other than Metal and dark mode, I've seen mostly features designed to make the iPhone work better with the Mac or the Mac more like an iPhone. I've seen very little mainstream improvements. Metal was the one thing that was supposed to make a big difference, especially for gaming since OS X's OpenGL support and drivers have always been abysmal compared to Windows with DirectX.

Put succinctly, some of us would like to see OS X (macOS) surpass Windows in "all" areas, not just "some" areas, but instead I've seen Windows start matching OS X features (like "Spaces/Mission Control") and become more Mac like while OS X just piddles with "flat" GUIs that break conventions and more phone crap.

Metal was only used by the GUI on intel cards in El capitan.
 
So, anyone wanna predict what these big projects are?

Here's how I'm calling it:

1. Borderlands 2 for Metal
2. Borderlands TPS for Metal
3. Doom for macOS/Metal
4. Call of Duty Black Ops 3 for macOS/Metal
5. Star Wars: Battlefront (so we can have this)

Your thoughts, guys?

Borderlands, sure. Usually comes to Mac anyways.
Doom, iffy at best.
CoD, sure. Like Borderlands, has a history of being ported for Macs.
ST:B, god I wish. But doubtful.
 
GUI type performance tanked in Yosemite on a lot of machines. Metal restored the speed in El Capitan, but my point is that it shouldn't have tanked in the first place (that Mavericks felt as fast as El Capitan here in typical GUI operations without the need for Metal and thus Metal should be even faster on the same hardware, not just making up for sludge created in Yosemite.
El cap is faster than Yosemite not because of Metal. It's faster on Macs that don't support Metal, or Macs for which the GUI does not use Metal, that is, all Macs except those with intel GPUs (HD 4000 or more recent).
 
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Metal was only used by the GUI on intel cards in El capitan.

OK, that's what my 2012 Mac Mini Server Quad i7 uses. My 2008 MBP running NVidia isn't "horrible" with El Capitan, but it's slower than Mavericks which is slower than Mountain Lion which is slower than Snow Leopard on it. My Mac Mini started with Mountain Lion. Mavericks felt maybe a tad slower. I avoided the Yosemite upgrade due to the plethora reviews saying how much slower it was. El Capitan feels similar to Mavericks on it, but it does use Metal now. It certainly doesn't feel faster than Mavericks and until one of the most recent updates, the hard drive was about 40% slower than Mavericks (one of the two past updates seemed to mostly fix that, it's only slightly slower now).
 
Doom, iffy at best.
Most of Id's games have made it to Mac eventually. Admittedly the main showstopper here would probably be video performance rather than licensing, but I still expect that we'll see Doom at some point (hopefully this month's rumoured hardware refresh will be decent). But in any case, unfortunately I wouldn't buy it as I already have it on PS4.

I'd love to see Gears of War 4 but I don't see that happening :(
 
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