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Does AT&T sell back their unused iPhone inventory to Apple at a loss or just hold on to the inventory?

Ah. You bring up another reason why carriers don't like dealing with Apple:

They have to commit to buying a certain amount of iPhones, and that can really put a strain on their staff and their stock value.

For examples:

  • Sprint agreed to purchase 30.5 million iPhones over a four year period, whether they sold them or not. The Sprint CEO ended up taking a $3.25 million pay cut for the hit the company took doing this.

  • Verizon agreed to buy $23.5 billion worth of iPhones in 2013 (twice the 2012 amount), and for a while it looked like they'd have to pay Apple almost half of that out of pocket. Not sure where they stand now.

Of course, Apple publicly claims all the sales to the carriers right away, no matter how long it takes for the carriers to sell the phones to end users.

Thiis Apple mode of dealing has made some carriers wary of committing to the iPhone. It's probably partly why it took so long to come to a deal with China Mobile.

It has also gotten Apple under antitrust investigation in the EU over the terms they require from carriers.

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Ah. You bring up another reason why carriers don't like dealing with Apple:

They have to commit to buying a certain amount of iPhones, and that can really put a strain on their staff and their stock value.

For examples:

  • Sprint agreed to purchase 30.5 million iPhones over a four year period, whether they sold them or not. The Sprint CEO ended up taking a $3.25 million pay cut for the hit the company took doing this.

  • Verizon agreed to buy $23.5 billion worth of iPhones in 2013 (twice the 2012 amount), and for a while it looked like they'd have to pay Apple almost half of that out of pocket. Not sure where they stand now.

(Of course, Apple publicly claims all the sales to the carriers. This is classic "shipped but not sold", in the meaning that people use around here of phones selling to a retailer but not to end users. )

All around the world this Apple mode of dealing has made some carriers wary of committing to the iPhone. It's probably partly why it took so long to come to a deal with China Mobile.

It has even gotten Apple under antitrust investigation in the EU over the terms they require from carriers.

That's a lot of money to tie up in inventory and then subsidize a person over two years. Looking at the numbers you posted it's starting to make sense from a business stand point to have higher rate plans or want to move to not subbing the phone.

I see why people are buying their own phones out right and going to other carriers like Tmobile, StraightTalk, etc.

Even more so now that phones have really peaked with what you can do with one. Buying the latest and greatest every year or two may be pushed out to every 4 or 5 years like some people do with PC's

I'm trying Tmobile out with a Nexus 5 for my son and will probably doing the same myself. $350 is more reasonable and lets face it. When it comes down to it iOS & Android they both can surf the web, text, email, Facebook, tweet & instagram, candy crush etc etc. Google Now can do what Siri does
iMessage is nice but I see it almost the same as BBM with everyone pretty much having unlimited text now it sort of falls to the way side. It does come in handy for iPod touches and non cellular iPads but then there's googleVoice that you can text with.
 
Hi guys, i was trying to navigate the website and join 2 of our phones into the Value SHare plan, and it shows $80 for 2 phones for sharing 2 gigs. But then in the final cart, they pull a fast one and tack on an extra $20 for visual voicemail. I tried removing it from the cart, but it won't allow you to, what gives? FInal bill is coming to $105 vs. $80
 
I'm trying Tmobile out with a Nexus 5 for my son and will probably doing the same myself. $350 is more reasonable and lets face it. When it comes down to it iOS & Android they both can surf the web, text, email, Facebook, tweet & instagram, candy crush etc etc. Google Now can do what Siri does
iMessage is nice but I see it almost the same as BBM

I agree. From a value standpoint the Nexus 5 is far more compelling than the iPhone. $350 versus $650… it's no contest.

I bought an iPhone earlier this year because I wasn't thrilled with the Android offerings at the time, but products like Nexus 5 and Moto X have really upped Android's appeal. Consumers can save a lot of money by buying unlocked Nexus handsets and going with a no-contract plan from Tmobile or an MVNO.

As more consumers catch on, Apple is either going to have to make the iPhone several levels above Android in terms of innovation, or lower the retail price.
 
Maybe people can free their minds now. Unlocked headsets are the way to go. You are not tied to one particular carrier.
 
Apple will suffer the most from this. Iphones don't sell nearly as well in countries that don't subsidize devices.

On a good note, maybe this will finally make apple consider more reasonable unsubsidized prices for their phones.

Everyone suffers equally. Wasn't it just a year or two ago when the rest of the industry (sans Apple and Samsung) were operating at a loss in mobile? Companies won't be living off of low to zero margins. Either that or they won't be innovating period. And then we will be suffering.

Also, even though contracts are going away, people aren't suddenly poor. Financing will exist b/c if it doesn't they'll just lose business to the next company that does. Not being able to pay upfront is a moot point. I think T-Mobile proved it as the 5s leads in sales and the 5c is 3rd to the GS4.

Also, for the numerous comments about carriers dropping iPhone from their stores, carriers won't drop support for Apple. For one, they would receive so much negative press. And 2, someone will swoop in and steal all your customers for a very heavy pro Apple customer base.
 
I'm not going to shell out $700 for a new phone every few years. Are they crazy?

EDIT (because I don't need my inbox blowing up with notifications): No I don't upgrade my phone yearly, and I'm not paying $100+ a month on my phone bill like some of you are claiming. Good lord.

That's how much I pay for my phones.

No subsidies here but we have the freedom of upgrading and switching whenever we like.
 
lets get back to reality.

I dunno, i have to take this as someone who as worked in the wireless industry for over a decade.

I've seen the market saturate over time. It used to be I personally could activate 20-25 new lines in a day. Now its upgrade central. "where's my FREE phone!?" is bellowed constantly. People have no idea what these phones actually cost. Its the handset makers that make the money on phones and devices, not the carriers. Let me take a few moments to address a few things:

1) Profits are greedy: Lets look at this. If you have a 401k, pension, HSA, etc, chances are it has a holding in AT&T. In that you get a stake in those profits that help build your future. Fact is we live in a capitalist, free market economy. To say profits should be controlled might as well start grow their beard and start waiving around their little red book. AT&T has nearly 265,000 employees in the US and around the globe. As other companies were cutting their hiring and capital spending during the "Great Recession" AT&T was dumping boatloads of cash into Project Velocity IP or VIP. The complete transformation of the entire nationwide network from TDM based services to an all IP environment. This will put the US on the forefront of telecomm innovation. Not to mention hiring at that point continued to put money into the economy. Per SEC filings profits derived from the higher usage based data plans are funneled back into the wireless LTE network to build more capacity in the system to allow for more data usage, thus allowing them to do what they just did, offer more data for less on the Mobile Share Value plans.

2) Subsidies distort the market place: They do, fact is the same can even be said for gov't subsidies. A comment was made that the prices for mobile operators are lower. they are, the build outs of the wireless networks are subsidies by gov'ts. the money from the gov't means less control over your company but you don't have to shell out the investment to build a network. driving costs down. however in our system that would not work without major questions of gov't power. In terms of the discount on smart phones; if you look at the retail price of most smart phones, not iPhones, the avg subsidy is $350-450. iPhone and GS4 getting the higher discounts. if you look at the pricing plans, you subsidize a phone you pay $40 for your line, if you use next or bring your own device, or once your 2yr contract is up you pay $25.

Lets look at AT&T next pricing:

as per their website:

iPhone 5s 16GB

No Commitment:$650

AT&T Next 18: 650/26 payments = $25/mth. after 18 payments you turn your phone back in, in good condition, and the zero interest loan is forgiven and you can get a new device. Upgrade and activation fees waived

AT&T Next 12: 650/20 payments = $32.50/mth, after 12 payments you turn your phone bad in, in good condition, and the zero interest loan is forgiven and you can get a new device. Upgrade and activation fees waived

2yr contract: $199 plus tax, you must new complete your 2yr contract or pay a $250 early upgrade fee to upgrade early and renew your contract. There is a $36 upgrade or activation fee, your line cost is $40 instead of $25.


realize that with a subsidy the carrier pays the brunt of the cost of the device. When they subsidize the phone, under current GAAP rules for accounting the discount must be written as an expense on the company's income statement.

by allowing the phone to be financed you can translate that loan into an accounts receivable and move it to the balance sheet as an asset which is balanced by the phone held as collateral as a liability. point is that it doesn't distort earnings.

Ive been waiting on this to hit the industry for years, people just don't value the piece of advanced technology in their pocket as much as they should. if you have to pay for it you treat it better, hands down.

3) Follow the leader: The carriers are all scared to take the first step. There is a concept in economics called price elasticity. if you lower your price and others don't your demand should increase all things being equal. If it goes up it should decrease. Since you are dealing with networks, spectrum (a scarce resource), and manpower. Things are not equal. Verizon and AT&T are both top tier because they have a legacy to keep up. They have invested billions in their talent and networks. T-Mobile, is a much smaller company that needs unlimited data to attract subscribers to a network that has much smaller coverage. As that coverage increases and costs go up and network resources become scarce unl data will go away, prices will increase, its how supply and demand work. Same goes for sprint. Sprint this is playing catch up to everyone else due to bad decisions.

Aio: remember its a division of AT&T, it operates on its own without overly direct influence from anyone but the AT&T board of directors. if the purchase of Cricket goes through it will be absorbed into Cricket following the transaction closing. Data may be unlimited, you pay more for more high speed but that high speed is capped at 4mbps. then slows to edge speeds after your plan is used up.

$55 - 2 GB high speed
$70 - 7 GB high speed


Apple: where to start, i applaud apple on its innovations, its attention to design and the consumer. they are a successful company. what will be good for the consumer is once people start to feel the "real" cost of their technology it will force all handset makers to not just compete on price but further innovation to differentiate their product from the competition's. I've tried android, blackberry, windows phone. I can't leave my iPhone for the simplicity, if i could buy my handset then take it where every i want i would. To have any carrier in the nation fighting for my business will bring down prices or push innovation
 
I agree. From a value standpoint the Nexus 5 is far more compelling than the iPhone. $350 versus $650… it's no contest.
The trouble is that your definition of value isn't the same as mine or many other people:

Two years from now that $650 iPhone will be worth $250~$300, and the Nexus 5 close to zero (why so little? Considering how near disastrous the initial KitKat update has been on the Nexus 4, the chances of the Nexus 5 receiving Apple quality software support two years from now, are like its price, near zero).

In the meantime, for the next two years with an iPhone 5S you will enjoy a class apart better CPU/GPU performance, a far superior camera, and IMO a way better design and build quality. Does that value standpoint still seem "no contest" to you?

Actually, I take that back -- it is no contest, just in favor of the iPhone.
 
AT&T CEO: Carriers Can't Afford Big Subsidies for Devices Any Longer

The trouble is that your definition of value isn't the same as mine or many other people:

Two years from now that $650 iPhone will be worth $250~$300, and the Nexus 5 close to zero (why so little? Considering how near disastrous the initial KitKat update has been on the Nexus 4, the chances of the Nexus 5 receiving Apple quality software support two years from now, are like its price, near zero).

In the meantime, for the next two years with an iPhone 5S you will enjoy a class apart better CPU/GPU performance, a far superior camera, and IMO a way better design and build quality. Does that value standpoint still seem "no contest" to you?

Actually, I take that back -- it is no contest, just in favor of the iPhone.

I don't think its a foregone conclusion that Nexus 5 will have poor quality software support.

The depreciation argument doesn't make sense to me. Let's say your assumptions are correct.

I pay $650 upfront for iPhone 5S 16GB. In 2 years I can resell for $250-300. I've lost $350-$400 in depreciation. A Nexus 5 16GB costs $350 upfront. Even if the value goes to $0, my depreciation loss is still the same as the iPhone. In both cases, I'm out roughly the same amount of money, but the Nexus didn't tie up as much capital.

I agree that the iPhone 5 has a better camera, more advanced processing system, and premium materials.

However, as a communications device, I don't believe the capability difference is great, if it exists at all. As a media device, some might argue that the Nexus is better than iPhone because the Nexus has a larger display (and from what I read a pretty accurate display too).

Bottom line for me is that the Nexus can do what most people want from a smart phone, and do it at nearly half the cost as iPhone. Given the enormous interest in the Nexus 5 here, I can't be the only one who sees it this way.

Now I won't be trading in my iPhone 5 for a Nexus, because I'm very happy with iPhone and iOS for the most part. But if I was buying a new smart phone, I'm not entirely sure I'd go the Apple route.

For me, if the iPhone was $500 retail unlocked versus the Nexus at $350 unlocked, I would take the iPhone. A 43% premium I can justify based on consistent updates and support. The current 86% premium is a lot tougher for me to justify.
 
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The trouble is that your definition of value isn't the same as mine or many other people:

Two years from now that $650 iPhone will be worth $250~$300, ...

His definition is fine. The overwhelming majority (80% for iPhones, 90+% for others, from surveys) of people do not resell their used phones, so the resale value is moot to them.

Your definition also works. For people who have to (or like to) sell their old handset to get a new one, then yes, resale value can be a major factor.

(There's also the hand-me-down factor. More iPhones are passed down to a family member of friend.)

Realize that with a subsidy the carrier pays the brunt of the cost of the device. When they subsidize the phone, under current GAAP rules for accounting the discount must be written as an expense on the company's income statement.

This.

Because the combination of handset and service contract is considered profitable, the FULL non-contract price of the handset is an immediate expense under GAAP when the contract is signed.

The carriers don't even get to write-down lower value like regular inventory.

Especially after each new iPhone debut, this extra cost has had some pretty big impacts on carrier profits and stock value.

by allowing the phone to be financed you can translate that loan into an accounts receivable and move it to the balance sheet as an asset which is balanced by the phone held as collateral as a liability. point is that it doesn't distort earnings.

It's surprising the carriers haven't already moved to separate device loans.

Apple has implemented loan and trade-in programs in unsubsidized countries like India, and that could be the future model for other places.
 
The trouble is that your definition of value isn't the same as mine or many other people:

Two years from now that $650 iPhone will be worth $250~$300, and the Nexus 5 close to zero (why so little? Considering how near disastrous the initial KitKat update has been on the Nexus 4, the chances of the Nexus 5 receiving Apple quality software support two years from now, are like its price, near zero).

In the meantime, for the next two years with an iPhone 5S you will enjoy a class apart better CPU/GPU performance, a far superior camera, and IMO a way better design and build quality. Does that value standpoint still seem "no contest" to you?

Actually, I take that back -- it is no contest, just in favor of the iPhone.

I'd be willing to bet that average consumer doesn't sell their iPhone when they upgrade. It probably gets passed down the line in the family etc. Check out the real world performance of a Nexus 5, you might be surprised. It is an excellent alternative at half the cost. The iPhone 5S wins the camera contest, no questions asked. Try loading a webpage like msnbc.com or cnn.com on a wifi connection on the 5S and Nexus 5 or the S4 and see which one scrolls faster. Right now, today, I'm not so sure that the 64 bit processor brings much to the table.
 
The trouble is that your definition of value isn't the same as mine or many other people:

Two years from now that $650 iPhone will be worth $250~$300, and the Nexus 5 close to zero

$650 - $300 = $350

$350 - close to 0 = $350

I don't see any difference
 
$650 - $300 = $350

$350 - close to 0 = $350

I don't see any difference

I'm finding out the difference in how the two sell currently.

Sold a 16GB white 4S unlocked for $300.

I've had my 16GB Nexus 4 on sale for two months now and can't get anyone to bite and I keep lowering the price. I'm now at $150 and I list the ad every day.

My Nexus 7 has got zero bites in two months as well.
 
I'd be willing to bet that average consumer doesn't sell their iPhone when they upgrade. It probably gets passed down the line in the family etc.

Yep. My older friends and coworkers just get the next model... and then either give away the old one, or put it in a drawer.

It's the younger people I know who are most likely to resell their old phone in order to get a new one. It's a smart move for them.

The last data I saw from CIRP research in 2012 was:

what_happens_to_previous_phones.png

Note 1: of the used phones given away or sold, not all are activated again.

Note 2: normally, about 11% of iPhone activations on US carriers are used. That's why we have to subtract those off whenever activations are announced, in order to better figure out how many were actual new iPhone sales. The used percentage also often rises in the months after a new model hits.
 
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How much did cost both of them?

The Nexus 4 was $349 and I bought the iPhone for $99 last January. I also paid $300 for the 32GB cellular Nexus 7 last February.

I wish I never would have bought the Nexus 7 because I thought it could be an iPad replacement. It wasn't until June when I bought an iPad and realized how great an iPad actually is. I never would have got the 7 if I had the iPad first.
 
On a good note, maybe this will finally make apple consider more reasonable unsubsidized prices for their phones.
Let's hope so. Comparing two very similar devices such as iPhone and latest iPod Touch gives a RIDICULOUS premium for the LTE radio part. Even the iPad doesn't have such an indecent premium.

Never forget that an iPhone is truly $850+, not $199.


However, some carriers, such as Rogers, won't lower the monthly rate if you BYOD. I tried to use it as an argument to get a lower monthly plan, to no avail. Without device, though, they just won't require that you sign up for 2-years.
 
If At&t doesn't switch up their Family Share Plans to benefit customers by the time my contracts (2) expire, I'm going to T-Mobile. They used to have very spotty coverage in my area, but they might've improved cuz I've been hearing nothing but good things from users. If not, it's worth the trade off having unlimited talk, text, & data for the prices they offer. I've had it w/ At&t's greed
 
$650 - $300 = $350

$350 - close to 0 = $350

I don't see any difference

You're looking at it wrong. :D

----------

Yep. My older friends and coworkers just get the next model... and then either give away the old one, or put it in a drawer.

It's the younger people I know who are most likely to resell their old phone in order to get a new one. It's a smart move for them.

The last data I saw from CIRP research in 2012 was:

View attachment 451734

Note 1: of the used phones given away or sold, not all are activated again.

Note 2: normally, about 11% of iPhone activations on US carriers are used. That's why we have to subtract those off whenever activations are announced, in order to better figure out how many were actual new iPhone sales. The used percentage also often rises in the months after a new model hits.

Thanks for posting this. I hadn't ever seen actual statistics on this. And I'd also like to thank you for your very knowledgeable, insightful posts. I've learned a lot from reading your posts.
 
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