AT&T Considering Modifications to Deadline for iPad Unlimited 3G Service Activations

[essinger]

All Apple has to do to make this entire issue go away is to offer a full refund to anyone who purchased the 3G and is unhappy with the new data plans. Given how little time has elapsed since they went on sale I fully expect them to do just that.

The number of people who would take advantage of the offer (who are not otherwise entitled to it because of purchase date) is miniscule. Chump change for both Apple and AT&T. Why they haven't made this offer yet is beyond me.

 

[rworne]

Just a thought here.

I know the 3G modem inside the ipad is specifically compatible with AT&T.

iFixit did a teardown and determined that the communications board is a removable component. One can hope that if the iPad becomes available for other providers that Apple or 3rd party services may be able to swap the card out.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

That's not true. Rights are worth something, even if not exercised. The fact that I COULD go over 2.0 GB is worth something. And even if you don't believe that, you put a "regularly" in there that is certainly wrong. And the proof will come not from the members of the class demonstrating that they would go over (at least once), but instead will come from AT&T, which has all sorts of documents, statistics, and internal memos which monetize the effect of this change of policy.

It's also likely fraud, since AT&T honchos were talking about the end of unlimited a couple months back - they never intended to let this go more than a month, so they fraudulently induced people to buy these devices that could only practically be used on their network. Fraud damages are not calculated like contract damages.

Again, you're the lawyer: yesterday, in the other thread, I asked you to estimate what you think a class action could yield, etc and you declined for "ethical reasons". The above feeds into some mentality that there could be a "big" class action suit here. I take "big" to mean "big dollars" for the claimants.

I respect the above as more expert than mine, but also much more ambiguous given that I've tried to offer some math to realistically frame the perception of what could be at stake. What is at stake?

I guess worse-case is that Apple might have to offer to refund all iPad 3Gs sold during this period, but that wouldn't put any money in claimants pockets if they still wanted 3G iPads in spite of the new, less-appealing deals. So again, if 500K bought 3G iPads and can't return them now, and 2% are the only ones who use more than 2G, then 10K unit returns for those people might be argued as remedies for all involved. After all, everyone else will save money on the 2G cap plan.

But there's no class action collection in Apple offering to refund those 10K- or even all 500K- units, so what class action firm will want to go through all that effort for a percentage of no cash prize?

And on the flipside, even with a perceptually worse 3G deal, how many 3G iPads would really get returned? Even at 2Gb max to be used when you need it and canceled when you don't: the basic concept of having it when you don't think you can find WIFI still exists. Thus, if I was buying an iPad today, I'd still pay the extra for the 3G simply because i may still occasionally need 3G. Because of this, I don't see all 10K- or all 500K- getting returned even if Apple extended that option for all of them.

 

[peteo]

They already offer a 5GB plan for $30, they just call it "unlimited"

The iPad $30 unlimited data plan was TRUE unlimited, no where in any terms did it state 5gig limit. Thats why its was so great

http://www.knowyourcell.com/feature...s_unlimited_ipad_3g_plan_truly_unlimited.html

 

[dave dave]

Wrong.

If I use:
2.1, 0, 2.1, 0, 2.1, 0

Under the old plan that cost me $90. Under the new plan it costs me $180 if I keep the $30 plan, or, if I start with the $30 plan in month 1, $130 ($30+0+$50+0+$50).

I think it is really 25+0+35+0+35+0=95 under the new plan.

 

[cmaier]

Again, you're the lawyer: yesterday, in the other thread, I asked you to estimate what you think a class action could yield, etc and you declined for "ethical reasons". The above feeds into some mentality that there could be a "big" class action suit here. I take "big" to mean "big dollars" for the claimants.

I respect the above as more expert than mine, but also much more ambiguous given that I've tried to offer some math to realistically frame the perception of what could be at stake. What is at stake?

I guess worse-case is that Apple might have to offer to refund all iPad 3Gs sold during this period, but that wouldn't put any money in claimants pockets if they still wanted 3G iPads in spite of the new, less-appealing deals. So again, if 500K bought 3G iPads and can't return them now, and 2% are the only ones who use more than 2G, then 10K unit returns for those people might be argued as remedies for all involved. After all, everyone else will save money on the 2G cap plan.

But there's no class action collection in Apple offering to refund those 10K- or even all 500K- units, so what class action firm will want to go through all that effort for a percentage of no cash prize?

And on the flipside, even with a perceptually worse 3G deal, how many 3G iPads would really get returned? Even at 2Gb max to be used when you need it and canceled when you don't: the basic concept of having it when you don't think you can find WIFI still exists. Thus, if I was buying an iPad today, I'd still pay the extra for the 3G simply because i may still occasionally need 3G. Because of this, I don't see all 10K- or all 500K- getting returned even if Apple extended that option for all of them.

Class action attorneys are not paid based on a percentage of recovery, typically. They are typically paid "reasonable rates" for the time and effort they put in.

 

[dave dave]

Thanks for the link, Just filled it out.
If you bought an iPad 3G before this announcement, I would take the few minutes and fill out a complaint

I filled out a complaint. For anyone else doing so from their iPad, don't attempt to use their spellcheck button or it will wipe out everything you've entered and you'll have to start over.

 

[mytdave]

I agree. You still need an unlimited plan in there somewhere.

No you don't. If they offer unlimited hotspot access like the major carriers in Canada do, then you really don't need that much data. If you are using more than 2GB per month then that means that you are tethering and you don't have an ISP at home.

If you are streaming music all the day long then you are part of the problem and why you see network slow downs on AT&T in certain areas. It does not take more than 2% of the users constantly streaming data to cause issues with a cellular network. It is not an ISP.

Actually, I think yes, there still needs to be an "Unlimited" plan. The extra pricing involved will self-limit the number of subscribers to that plan. But, the thing is, cellular networks are becoming ISPs. In 10 years, everything will be data, and calls will be VoIP. Carriers who don't start making the transition now will lose.

In the mean-time, an "Unlimited" plan can have restrictions, such as say, a 4GB daily cap, or a speed reduction (or cut off) if a particular cell tower is nearing saturation. In the future, carriers need to put systems in place to handle the necessary traffic. Additional spectrum has already been allocated, and more may be necessary.

 

[deconstruct60]

Wrong.

If I use:
2.1, 0, 2.1, 0, 2.1, 0

Under the old plan that cost me $90. Under the new plan it costs me $180 if I keep the $30 plan, or, if I start with the $30 plan in month 1, $130 ($30+0+$50+0+$50).

Not quite. Run that pattern out for a whole year to look at yearly costs.

J F M A M J J A S O N D
2.1 , 0 , 2.1 , 0 , 2.1 , 0 , 2.1 , 0 , 2.1 , 0 , 2.1, 0

So

6 * $30 = $180

or it just keep it on the whole year: $360 $360 is a 100% increase. Nothing anywhere near 200+%. Neither is $180 anywhere near a 200+% increase.

AT&T could have also legally waited till August when costs had gotten out of control to change the unlimited plan to $35 or $40. That would screw most of the newcomers so that they upper percentile fringe can keep consuming more than average. Would that be "fair and balanced" ?



However, seriously need to question how realistic this utilization is. Wild swings from 2.1 down to zero. Really? Also not considered here is the $25 recharges within 30 days also resets the clock. If the usage doesn't drop to zero in the "between" months can use the remainder of the recharge over some of those days. Similarly if manage to drop just 100MB a couple of months drop the costs by $5 .

Finally though.... absolutely yes folks who use more than 2GB a month pay more. It is not like AT&T truly wanted to encourage that behavior before. Abnormal folks pay more. The point that the non contract months are zero is representative that the "start/stop/resignup" functionality is still exactly in effect. There is no penalty fee for ending a contract early. There is no requirement to keep the contract running for a specific number of months. You can initiate a new contract whenever you want.



One, there is a question of how realistic the usage pattern is. Two, that is not necessarily the same number of months since the second $25 recharge you are getting later in the mother also resets the clock.

 

[cmaier]

I think it is really 25+0+35+0+35+0=95 under the new plan.

Not sure why? Assuming only the new plan (which was not my starting assumption - recall I stated that you start with the $30 plan in month 1) isn't it:

2.1 GB: $25+$25 to start a new month when you exceed 2.0
0 GB: You've prepaid for part of this month with the second installment from month 1, but you aren't using it
2.1 GB: $25+$25 to start a new month when you exceed 2.0
0 GB
2.1 GB: $25+$25

So $150.

The iphone "overage" does not apply (I just realized you are adding $10). In iPad plans, when you use 2GB, you have to start a new month. AT&T confirmed this.

 

[IPPlanMan]

Excellent!

I filled out a complaint. For anyone else doing so from their iPad, don't attempt to use their spellcheck button or it will wipe out everything you've entered and you'll have to start over.

Good point.

Did you do AT&T and/or Apple?

Great!

 

[peteo]

I think it is really 25+0+35+0+35+0=95 under the new plan.

If your talking about the iPad then this is totally off.

the iPad plan has no "overages" so when you run out off data, the data stops until you pay more. 2 gig for $25, $25 for 250mb so this would be more like this:

50+0+50+0+50+0=$150
since if you wanted to use 2.1 gigs you would have to spend $50

See how much they are ripping us off

 

[cmaier]

You rely way to much on AT&T self-serving "statistic." They lump low usage blackberry users in with iPad/iPhone users and claim in a month 98% use less than 2.0, but don't claim it's the same 98% each month. If you look at the percentage of iPhone/iPad users who, in a given year, would go over 2.0GB at least once, it's a completely different number. But AT&T won't tell you that number, because it doesn't serve their point. It will come out in the class action, undoubtedly.

Also not sure why you harp on 200% increase? Did I say that?

And, the most important part of this is that we were sold something that turned out not to be what was promised. Justify the result if you want, but by changing the rules of the game for people who laid out $800+ to buy something in reliance on your promise, when you knew you were going to break the promise, that's fraud.

Not quite. Run that pattern out for a whole year to look at yearly costs.

J F M A M J J A S O N D
2.1 , 0 , 2.1 , 0 , 2.1 , 0 , 2.1 , 0 , 2.1 , 0 , 2.1, 0

So

6 * $30 = $180

or it just keep it on the whole year: $360 $360 is a 100% increase. Nothing anywhere near 200+%. Neither is $180 anywhere near a 200+% increase.


However, seriously need to question how realistic this utilization is. Wild swings from 2.1 down to zero. Really? Also not considered here is the $25 recharges within 30 days also resets the clock. If the usage doesn't drop to zero in the "between" months can use the remainder of the recharge over some of those days. Similarly if manage to drop just 100MB a couple of months drop the costs by $5 .

Finally though.... absolutely yes folks who use more than 2GB a month pay more. It is not like AT&T truly wanted to encourage that behavior before. Abnormal folks pay more. The point that the non contract months are zero is representative that the "start/stop/restart" functionality is still exactly in effect. There is no penalty fee for ending a contract early. There is no requirement to keep the contract running for a specific number of months. You can initiate a new contract whenever you want.









One, there is a question of how realistic the usage pattern is. Two, that is not necessarily the same number of months since the second $25 recharge you are getting later in the mother also resets the clock.

 

[rworne]

I think it is really 25+0+35+0+35+0=95 under the new plan.

The additional $10/GB issue is only for the iPhone, not the iPad. The original poster was correct - assuming they renew another 2GB when they run out of data. Additionally, if that 2GB was renewed near the end of the 30-day term, the "unused" 1.9 GB would be available anytime on the $0 months as well, since the 30 day clock resets when another block of data is purchased.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

10,000 X the extra $130 paid for the iPad 3G, since it was sold under "FALSE" terms (well as of june 7th) + extra money for all the bull crap every on has to deal with, so around 2 million. Hmm some one might bite

This assumes that given the new deal- which is still 3G when you need it (just less of it than before)- that every one of those 10K would rather have the 3G-less model instead. With the 14 day return policy, a bunch of them can return them now. And I could see Apple making concession one-on-one for anyone beyond 14 days if they made a decent stink about this change by AT&T.

Besides, even if the prize is $2M, I'm talking about what gets to individual claimants hands. $2M/10,000 claimants = $200. But if the prize was $2M, the class action firm would take a big cut, court costs applied, etc, which is why it would end up something much less. My guess is a few dollars... up to $100 at most.

Understand, I think this is total crap, and that AT&T is once again showing the devil that they are. The problem is that AT&T will still report 3G subscriber growth in spite of this change and pat themselves on the back for a job well done. Then, they'll collect their bonuses and scheme up the next way to sock it to their captive audience that keeps growing and growing.

Class action won't accomplish nothing. You want to make something happen: motivate the class to take their business elsewhere as a group. If this move was the straw for everyone, everywhere, AT&T would be quick to give buyers deals that are better for buyers.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

Just a thought here.

I know the 3G modem inside the ipad is specifically compatible with AT&T.

iFixit did a teardown and determined that the communications board is a removable component. One can hope that if the iPad becomes available for other providers that Apple or 3rd party services may be able to swap the card out.

Yes, but where do you go? Who has a better deal that you can use-cancel-use with no contract?

 

[essinger]

For those of us that only planned to use 3G over summer and winter vacation it is more like:

0GB+0GB+0GB+0GB+0GB+5GB+5GB+0GB+0GB+0GB+0GB+5GB

so $90/year vs. $225/year

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

Class action attorneys are not paid based on a percentage of recovery, typically. They are typically paid "reasonable rates" for the time and effort they put in.

I recall being a part of the original advertising claim (battery) iPod class action suit. I think that settled for more than $10M (but I don't recall for sure). I think as one of the claimants, I got a check for around $20. If it wasn't "reasonable rates", where did the bulk of the money go?

And who would pay the "reasonable rates" if not out of the prize?

 

[dave dave]

If your talking about the iPad then this is totally off.

the iPad plan has no "overages" so when you run out off data, the data stops until you pay more. 2 gig for $25, $25 for 250mb so this would be more like this:

50+0+50+0+50+0=$150
since if you wanted to use 2.1 gigs you would have to spend $50

See how much they are ripping us off

Oh great! I hope you are wrong.

 

[tigres]

Thought you might want a good laugh..

From Mr. Mark Siegel at AT&T: (Back in April)

"According to AT&T's Mark Siegel, "unlimited is unlimited." Stream video 24/7 if you want; AT&T promises that they won't criticize or judge. (Well, maybe they will, but they'll keep it to themselves.) YouTube yourself silly all day and all night. Use Sling Player until your eyes go square. While Siegel also wanted to remind me that he expected iPad users to spend a lot of time in Wi-Fi hotspots (and they get access to AT&T's own hotspots for free), he said that the crazy outliers who stream data all the time won't be penalized."

Source

All of this less then 2 months ago...

 

[bobt]

From a current page on the Apple website:

No-contract 3G service.
AT&T 3G Data Plans for iPad

Data per month Price per month
250MB $14.99
Unlimited $29.99
One month is based on 30 consecutive days, and starts at the date and time of your purchase.
In the United States, 3G service is available through a breakthrough deal with AT&T. You choose the amount of data per month you want to buy — 250MB or unlimited. If you choose the 250MB plan, you’ll receive onscreen messages as you get close to your monthly data limit so you can decide whether to turn off 3G or upgrade to the unlimited plan. Best of all, there’s no long-term contract. So if you have a business trip or vacation approaching, just sign up for the month you’ll be traveling and cancel when you get back. You don’t need to visit a store to get 3G service. You can sign up, check your data usage, manage your account, or cancel your service — all from your iPad.

This just not true anymore yet they are still advertising as such. I recommended several people buying iPads to purchase the 3g version because it was going to be easy to switch back and forth between the unlimited and the 250MB plan. Pure BS.

 

[deconstruct60]

I think it is really 25+0+35+0+35+0=95 under the new plan.

on the iPhone. On iPhone plan there is $10 for an additional 1 GB of data. On the iPad you need to buy another additional contract. The upside is that your expiration date is reset. The down side is it isn't a "small" increment (another 2GB). Although if knew in advance were only going 100MB over could buy a $15 250MB bump to get you over the hump instead of another $25 2GB. That would makes some sense if knew usage was going to drop to zero very soon for an extended period of time (i.e., 20-30 days).

 

[bpfesq]

I recall being a part of the original advertising claim (battery) iPod class action suit. I think that settled for more than $10M (but I don't recall for sure). I think as one of the claimants, I got a check for around $20. If it wasn't "reasonable rates", where did the bulk of the money go?

And who would pay the "reasonable rates" if not out of the prize?

The fees come out of the settlement/award, but it isn't always a percentage of the settlement/award. It could be a per hour charge plus costs, etc.


And i know you only got $20 from the prior suit, but there were likely hundreds of thousands of people who were part of that class action. The more people who are damaged, the more people that will share in the award if successful.

 

[HobeSoundDarryl]

But, the thing is, cellular networks are becoming ISPs. In 10 years, everything will be data, and calls will be VoIP. Carriers who don't start making the transition now will lose.

How will they lose? The last thing any of the "big 2" (or maybe "big 2" and "medium 2") want is to become dumb pipes. If they commoditize the pipes, then all they have is pricing (and thus pressure to lower prices). With a pseudo monoply, they have no interest in lower prices, nor no competitive pressure to lower prices. I would even say that if they thought they could get away with it, they would merge into a single entity.

I agree that it will be all data, VOIP, etc in the future, but the savings won't be passed on to users. Margins will just be expanded. Tethering data and data is the same data. Charging more for the same data by calling it a tethering add on is a yet another illustration of the future.

In the future, carriers need to put systems in place to handle the necessary traffic. Additional spectrum has already been allocated, and more may be necessary.

Did you notice who bought the vast majority of the additional spectrum. Yep, Verizon & AT&T. No small competitors shall be allowed to pressure pricing downward. Instead, any upstarts just get gobbled up by the big boys.

Your core thinking is exactly right in a system where capitalism works as it is supposed to do: with many competitors competing for the same customers. However, when the competitors can be counted on one hand, that benefit of capitalism breaks down.

 

[essinger]

Yes, but where do you go? Who has a better deal that you can use-cancel-use with no contract?

Well, depending on you're usage pattern : http://www.virginmobileusa.com/mobile-broadband
It's cheaper for the very heavy user. And the extremely light user.