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Sometimes it is simply just way too many people online in one cell area at once. Especially in Los Angeles where even infants have cell phones:D

Seriously. When I'm in LA, whether I was on Verizon or Cingular/ATT, the cell service was terrible. I'd turn a corner, full bars to nothing, and EDGE was SLOOOOOOW. I tested the download transfer rates while in SoCal a few weeks ago, it was worst than dial-up...
 
No it wouldn't. It could just sell them in store. No special software, no crippling by networks... you lot just don't get it.

Apple will no become a "service provider". 1% chance in the USA, where the mobile phone market is backwards, but there is not a snowball's chance in hell that Apple could survive in the UK. I just can't see it. Offering one or two phones? You've got to be kidding? Or do you mean offering all the current phones, on the Apple network? I just don't understand. An Apple SIM card? Apple paying to fix broken masts around the world? :rolleyes:

Silly rabbit. I'm just thinking more Helio or MVNO-based than an actual Apple Phone Company that sells all sorts of random phones (maybe 'service provider' was the wrong word choice).
The latter would be stupider than this thread.

And, to me, the US's utter cluster *** of a mobile phone market simply begs to be redefined. And while contrary to popular belief, I still feel Apple is slowly positioning themselves for just such a redefinition. A few years out. But it's coming. And I think it could, in time, be quite successful.

As Apple market share grows, and more people begin to expect an Apple experience with their computers and their music players, they will now also begin to expect the same from their mobile phones, televisions, toasters, cars... where does it end? :p

Again, from my limited perspective, it seems Apple is systematically going about this in a very well-thought, bigger picture manner.

Again, this is all merely conjecture based on the scraps of outsider info I stumble across. No more. no less.
 
just a thought...

Could you imagine Ford telling the owners of mustangs that they can NOT add a new exhaust or boar out the engine for more horse power!

I imagine you would get more horsepower if you bored-out the engine, and it might be easier than trying to squeeze that boar into your short block, and less noisy.;)
 
exactly

The way it currently works is that ATT/Apple wants to eat their cake and have it to by selling you ownership of the hardware with none of the rights that ownership implies.


yes, this is the point exactly. and i believe that is why apple seems to have taken a backseat to all these legal woes, as reports have only listed at&t as the harassment party. apple just wanted to get the iphone to the market, and it's a shame that verizon didn't get onboard this ship, if both at&t and verizon were interested enough, apple could have had their cake and eat it anyway.
then they would have truly been in the position they wanted to be in-the hardware suppliers.
the way it should have worked is you buy your iphone from an apple store, an at&t store, a verizon store, a sprint store, a tmobile store, best buy, wherever, and YOU pick your carrier. this is the way it should have worked, and it's a shame that america has to suffer while other countries enjoy this common practice of getting your hardware and picking your carrier. there is no good reason that providers in the USA can't do this, they just don't want to b/c not doing it allows them to charge inflated prices and exclusive packages when the new "cool" phone comes out every 6 months.
maybe one day we'll catch up to the rest of the world.
 
No, they would NOT!!! I find it interesting that much of the unlocking debate comes from overseas where the iPhone is non-existent. Why weigh in folks?

First of all, there would NOT be an iPhone anywhere if it were not for ATT's participation. ATT has to be given a ton of credit for this. Without them, Apple would not have sold a phone because NO carrier would sell it. Why? Because Nokia and MOTO etc. would have threatened the carriers with all sorts of stuff to NOT carry the iPhone. And, if it did get picked up, it would have been crippled just as many phones are. Do you think visual voice-mail (it IS a big deal) would have seen the light of day? Would data have been free? Want to reward Verizon after they gave it a pass? T-mobile for just being there???

NO BLOODY way!!!

I am happy to see ATT remain the exclusive carrier. They deserve to be rewarded for helping Apple get a great device out there. There was a lot of cooperation between Apple and ATT to make this happen. So before you trash ATT, foreigners---- think a bit!

Now, ATT-- fix the roaming issue and the horrendous extortion you extract under roaming and much of the US need for unlocking will go away!! Ball's in your court.


Pay attention boys 'cause this is correct. And congrats to Polonius, Lazyrighteye, and the few others who understand the realities of the telecom marketplace. The present situation may not satisfy most people, but things often aren't the way you want them to be. And if you think the unlockers are going to ride to your rescue with a legal, functional solution, then I've got a nice bridge to sell you.
 
More FUD.
I think it'd be a great idea to arrange an escrow account for donations to cover the legal fees and duke this whole thing out in court and get a definitive answer one way or the other.

Can you think about it for a second. Real lawyers send Registered Mail. A phone call at 3am with no name or call number sounds a little bit fishy.

The facts are: No registered mail, no name, no record, no contact info.

If there is a law suit, it would probably be about this company committing fraud (by lying).
 
I'd like to echo those that feel the iPhone would have failed (eventually) had there NOT been a single carrier that agreed to play by Apple's rules. Locked device and all.

Until Apple is in a position (and make no mistake, it is coming) to act as service provider, releasing an iPhone into the world, unlocked, would have maybe meant more units sold, today. But in the long term, would have been genocide. Game over. The iPhone would see the same fate of every single legit tech coming out of Nokia, Samsung, etc. - crippled to mediocrity by service providers.

Again, Apple is about control. Period.
A locked, single service provider option was the only way they could release such a device and help ensure the control they are known for while also ensuring the device (and it's offspring) has a future... beyond 2 years.

Wrong.

The iPhone's success has to do with a robust operating system and a unified code base. In time, we will see all sorts of applications on it - and that is what makes it so attractive. The other phone manufacturer's like SE & Nokia are using the Symbian OS and they aren't as good in application software like Apple. Although they have hardly failed. The future of mobile communications is Asia. India adds 7+ million new users a month and China adds 5+ million a month. For these people, primarily under age 30, their mobile is the only phone they have and will not hesitate buying a more expensive unit and will not hesitate going from one provider to another because there is no contract and when they move around, these people like to use whichever carrier suits them. There are people in Asia who are ready to jump at the iPhone given the chance, but if its locked down, its unlikely to happen. An unlocked iPhone, if it were released world wide, would see several million sold right off the bat. I would say the factory that makes the iPhone in China wouldn't be able to keep up with demand.

ATT only brings visual voice mail. Their network, like everyone else, doesn't work well in all places within the US. I don't think Apple is going to become a mobile service provider anytime soon because that involves a large infrastructure and is a very different business than what they are presently doing. It would be analogous to Apple becoming an internet service provider.

I'll bet that Nokia, Samsung and SE will in the near future dump the Symbian OS and go to Linux.
 
IMHO it's more likely Apple who goes after iPhone unlockers. After all Apple has yet to strike deals with european providers and unlockers will not go unnoticed and will undermine Apple position. Who will want such an "exclusive" agreement with Apple?
 
That's because that would be theft of service. You'd be stealing cable broadcasts albeit "magically" through the air. No one's talking about modifying the iPhone to get free service they're just talking about modifying it to pay for someone else's service. Modifying said cable ready tv to receive both cable and satellite broadcasts and paying for both services is more along the lines of what I'm talking about.

You are modifying so that it will work on another mobile carrier network other than AT&T, which will loose the money they would have made had you not modified the iPhone, ergo, AT&T can call that a theft of "potential" service...



The government regulates what I can and can't do with my property rightly or wrongly in the name of public safety, but I'm not sure what that has to do with tax policy? All I'm doing is defending my right to tinker.

Just a little friendly pick'n on ya, that's all:).

"I'm not sure what that has to do with tax policy?..." - The government can dictate what they tax you and you have no qualms?, but let a corporation like AT&T dictate something and all hell is going to break loose?... Come'on now...
 
"I'm not sure what that has to do with tax policy?..." - The government can dictate what they tax you and you have no qualms?, but let a corporation like AT&T dictate something and all hell is going to break loose?... Come'on now...

Yup. You can vote the government out of office and stop tax increases. You can't do that to AT&T.
 
You are modifying so that it will work on another mobile carrier network other than AT&T, which will loose the money they would have made had you not modified the iPhone, ergo, AT&T can call that a theft of "potential" service...





Just a little friendly pick'n on ya, that's all:).

"I'm not sure what that has to do with tax policy?..." - The government can dictate what they tax you and you have no qualms?, but let a corporation like AT&T dictate something and all hell is going to break loose?... Come'on now...


Theft of potential service isn't a crime, or you could call anyone who made a better service that people flocked to a criminal.

The government has limitations as well, and those limitations can be changed by voters. I don't want a private firm to dictate anything about how I use a product that I didn't buy from them, which is what AT&T is doing. I'd actually care more about this action if it was Apple that was the perpetrator, but since Apple was not named, I'd just ignore this, if I were the unlockers. :apple:
 
You are modifying so that it will work on another mobile carrier network other than AT&T, which will loose the money they would have made had you not modified the iPhone, ergo, AT&T can call that a theft of "potential" service...

So every time I decide not to buy something I'm breaking the law?
If I modify my car to run on natural gas instead of petroleum can Exxon have me arrested?
Am I likely to be sent up the river for eating a peanut butter sandwich with out jelly?
 
Wrong.

The iPhone's success has to do with a robust operating system and a unified code base. In time, we will see all sorts of applications on it - and that is what makes it so attractive.

I 100% agree that the iPhone's (and will add Apple's) success is based on a "robust operating system and a unified code base." We can all agree that this level of control is Apple's bread and butter.
I just neglected to cover this obvious fact in my initial post.

The other phone manufacturer's like SE & Nokia are using the Symbian OS and they aren't as good in application software like Apple. Although they have hardly failed.

Sure. Manufacturers like SE & Nokia have had great success... but not against anything as remotely robust and integrated as what Apple brought to the party on June 29th.

Recap.
June 28th, the mobile phone market was the same old game: fat cats getting fatter. And while things seemed to 'work,' tho not particularly well, there was no threat/incentive for anyone/anything to evolve.
June 29th, everything changed.
With the proverbial flip of the switch, the fat cats (seemingly all of the sudden - tho there was that MWSF '07 'warning') found themselves playing catchup. And it's easy to gloss over just how remarkable that light-switch, redefinition phenomenon is (something Apple has now pulled off twice). But if you must know what that's like, just ask Creative or iRiver.

What the current phone market is experiencing is not much different than what the mp3 player market went through in 2001. Before Apple, several manufacturers were doing just fine. Everyone had comfortably settled into place. Apple shows up, amidst a LOT of skepticism, and well... we all know how that's been unfolding ever since.

The future of mobile communications is Asia. India adds 7+ million new users a month and China adds 5+ million a month. For these people, primarily under age 30, their mobile is the only phone they have and will not hesitate buying a more expensive unit and will not hesitate going from one provider to another because there is no contract and when they move around, these people like to use whichever carrier suits them. There are people in Asia who are ready to jump at the iPhone given the chance, but if its locked down, its unlikely to happen. An unlocked iPhone, if it were released world wide, would see several million sold right off the bat. I would say the factory that makes the iPhone in China wouldn't be able to keep up with demand.

Heck yeah the future of many things, least of which is mobile communications, is Asia! And while an unlocked iPhone would sell millions right out of the gate (and manufacturing plants would instantly be 2 years behind in production) again, it would hurt the brand in the long run. I just can't see Apple putting out something they could not guarantee the user experience. That so M$. And for better or worse (I can argue 'better'), that user experience guarantee is well worth not selling crap-loads (which = a lot) of kludge devices.
Kind of like that 'less is more' mentality.

ATT only brings visual voice mail. Their network, like everyone else, doesn't work well in all places within the US. I don't think Apple is going to become a mobile service provider anytime soon because that involves a large infrastructure and is a very different business than what they are presently doing. It would be analogous to Apple becoming an internet service provider.

Agreed. Visual Voice Mail, while nifty, does not justify partnering with AT&T. But I covered (and stand by) my reasons for a partnership.

And yes, providing Mobile Services requires a massive infrastructure. Especially with today's inefficient practices/strategies/concepts/implementations. This alone, to me, suggests an opportunity that I think Apple is (and has been) strategically placing themselves in a position to address. For a long time. And no matter how you slice it: Apple is most certainly in the mobile communications business - if only from a different angle.

Now there is no way they could have jumped into the game, alone, played by today's rules AND been successful. Which is exactly why they didn't. Again, they partnered with a 'established' service provider (in the US) more as a buffer. Lessons learned form this experience, combined that with their decades of successful user experience design and implementation, and (all of the sudden) service providing makes maybe a lot more sense than it once did. Only, it won't look the same as today's 'service provider.' I don't think it out of line to suggest that the revolution is here.

I'll bet that Nokia, Samsung and SE will in the near future dump the Symbian OS and go to Linux.

To me, dumping Symbian in favor of Linux is the Nokia's and Samsung's (etc.) only option. The sooner, the better.
But again, Apple's tight integration will be hard to compete with, for a long time. And if you think these suggestions/ideas are original or somehow new, you have another thing coming. The iPhone (and devices like it) have been in the works for years. Everything Apple has done from the get-go has been leading to this. And today, they are far more poised to handle current and future challenges than most of their competition.

I know it has been popular/tempting to bash Apple at every turn. And many have taken their best shot(s).

OS X?
iPod??
Intel???
iPhone?!?!?

From my perspective, I think they're onto something.
 
The other phone manufacturer's like SE & Nokia are using the Symbian OS and they aren't as good in application software like Apple.

********

Mobile OSX isn't proven.

In fact, Apple doesn't allow third party development. That speaks a million words - it lacks maturity. Mobile OSX needs several years of solid development.

Symbian OS is very secure ( Symbian 9 ), and in my experience VERY stable, from EPOC on the Psion 5.

I've used Psion 5, SE-900 and Nokia E70 and my phone has very rarely crashed, and I use a lot of applications. I know of other people who have fared less.. but, thats my experience.

Symbian OS is far more accessible than OSX. Its fairly cheap to license, and Symbian make it available to all. Mobile OSX is closed, and available only to Apple.


Its waaay to early to compare Mobile-OSX to any other cell phone platform, until 3rd party applications are allowed. People have said that the iPhone isn't very stable and applications crash regularly...
 
Sure. Manufacturers like SE & Nokia have had great success... but not against anything as remotely robust and integrated as what Apple brought to the party on June 29th.

Integrated???
Say you have a Macbook from Apple and an IPhone, both are from Apple, both have WLAN and both have Bluetooth. You are using Apple's favorite mobile service. But you are not allowed to connect the two devices to get a mobile internet access for your MacBook? As hackers proved, this is not a technical but a pure artificial limitation. AT&T simply does not want it. Even if you are willing to pay for that traffic. If you want that, they force you to buy a phone from the competetion!

Since I am not in the US the IPhone is currently no option for me, but I don't mind. I regulary use mobile Internet on the MacBook using a much cheaper phone from SE via 3G network and it works well.

Integration with the rest of the mobile world is also bad. No MMS? Yes, while limited compared to email this service is in wide spread use here (fun photos etc.). If your friend doesn't have an iPhone or other high end device this means, you won't be able to send a photo.

...
What the current phone market is experiencing is not much different than what the mp3 player market went through in 2001. Before Apple, several manufacturers were doing just fine. Everyone had comfortably settled into place. Apple shows up, amidst a LOT of skepticism, and well... we all know how that's been unfolding ever since.

No. MP3 players are very different. Before Apple appeared, they used to be an expensive toy for geeks, not a mass market product. Flash memory or small HDDs were too expensive. Apple made the first device for everyone and created a new market. There also was no such thing as the Music Store before.
But mobile phones are different. Everyone has them, everyone uses them. Everything is available from cheap beginner devices to very high end pocket computers. Competetitors are much stronger. There are also many different types of network in use worldwide while the same iPod can be sold worldwide.
 
If AT&T forces Apple, through law suits, to patch the unlocking capability and this whole thing becomes a cat & mouse game of unlocking & locking patches between the hackers & Apple, it will hurt the sales of the iPhone in the long run.

Many people want the iPhone because it fits their needs, but they also need unlocked phones for a number of valid reasons. This is something the most US mobile users don't realize.

Personally, like many, I'm waiting to see what applications become available on the iPhone. In the mean time Google's gPhone made by HTC will be coming out soon using a Linux kernel and many iPhone apps could be ported over to use on the gPhone.

http://www.google-phone.com/google-os-launch-imminent-htc-first-hardware-partner-2972.php
"No telling which they’ve decided on - and HTC has a broad range of handsets with and without keyboards to choose from - but it’s safe to assume that 3G (and hopefully HSDPA), a camera in excess of 2-megapixels and probably a touchscreen in the 3-inch range will feature. As for software, expect a specially-tweaked version of Google Maps, complete with built-in GPS, compatibility with GMail and Google Calendar, as well as Google Talk for IM and VoIP."
 
No, they would NOT!!! I find it interesting that much of the unlocking debate comes from overseas where the iPhone is non-existent. Why weigh in folks?

First of all, there would NOT be an iPhone anywhere if it were not for ATT's participation. ATT has to be given a ton of credit for this. Without them, Apple would not have sold a phone because NO carrier would sell it. Why? Because Nokia and MOTO etc. would have threatened the carriers with all sorts of stuff to NOT carry the iPhone. And, if it did get picked up, it would have been crippled just as many phones are. Do you think visual voice-mail (it IS a big deal) would have seen the light of day? Would data have been free? Want to reward Verizon after they gave it a pass? T-mobile for just being there???

NO BLOODY way!!!

I am happy to see ATT remain the exclusive carrier. They deserve to be rewarded for helping Apple get a great device out there. There was a lot of cooperation between Apple and ATT to make this happen. So before you trash ATT, foreigners---- think a bit!

Now, ATT-- fix the roaming issue and the horrendous extortion you extract under roaming and much of the US need for unlocking will go away!! Ball's in your court.


Hey guys, I see we have an at&t EMPLOYEE on Macrumors!!!

You just keep telling yourself that:):rolleyes:
 
I'm glad your an expert and so much smarter then all the business people working at Apple.

Apple spent many hours going through all the possible scenarios so they could maximize the probability of making the most profit. Locking the phone was not an arbitrary decision but of course you know better.

Apple is a business and exist to keep it's stock holders happy by maximizing profits. When conditions change such that Apple will maximize profits by unlocking the iPhone, Apple will unlock it.

Well it looks like all Americans are brainwashed to LOVE phones locked to a specific carrier.. geez. I bet you LOVE paying to receive calls and sms's as well:rolleyes: And having to throw away a phone if you want to move carriers...

It will be funny to see if Europeans appreciate their phones being locked... I believe it's illegal in some/all European countries?
 
Well it looks like all Americans are brainwashed to LOVE phones locked to a specific carrier.. geez. I bet you LOVE paying to receive calls and sms's as well:rolleyes: And having to throw away a phone if you want to move carriers...

Also...

Is the lack of MMS an AT&T "feature"?

I suspect not being able to use the iPhone as a modem for a laptop is also another AT&T restriction.
 
#iphone have been warning about the scum iphoneunlocking from the beginning. All they did was hang out in the channel and steal everything - so they could sell it. Serves them right.
 
iPhone likes and dislikes... from one who thinks different

I suspect that most iPhone haters do not actually use an iPhone on a daily basis.

FWIW, I picked up my iPhone on June 29.
It also represents my only phone. No land line.
Having used a few different 'smart phones' over the past decade, this one is hands-down, the most useful one I have encountered.
EDGE is nowhere NEAR as slow as I was anticipating. Safari, on EDGE, is more than acceptable. Maps does not see any tangible lag due to EDGE. The keyboard is a non-issue for me. Sure, there are some things/features I would like to see eventually revised/included - but overall, straight out of the box, this device rocks.
...
The few people I personally know, using iPhones, they are equally as happy. But maybe we're the minority. Maybe not.
It might be worth noting people are more likely to post negatives than positives. ;)

I'd be happy to elaborate on any specifics, for those more curious of day-to-day usage.

I (mostly) love my iPhone as an iPod. I watch videos and listen to music on it. One annoyance with the iPod feature is that you have to rotate the unit back and forth between portrait and landscape to select and view videos. I like the phone for email, though I dislike the lack of being able to delete multiple emails at once. I hate typing on the virtual keyboard. It is 2-3 times slower than when I type on my PDA's keyboard (and I'm a touch typist!).

I did not sign up for an ATT contract. I signed up for the GoPhone option, and will cancel my contract at the end of the month (after 2 months use). ATT charges $90 for 900 minutes, whereas I get 1000 minutes and unlimited data from Sprint for $65/mo... and Sprint's EVDO network is much faster than EDGE. A severe annoyance to the GoPhone option is that I get a message after every web surfing session that my last transaction cost 0.00 dollars. And while I am doing SMS, I get a message after every line I type that it cost me .05 dollars. If I put my phone away as soon as I'm done surfing, the phone wakes up when it gets the message, and I'm unaware of it until I pull it from my bag! I wish ATT would stop wasting my battery power and my time with things I already know.

I have a Samsung IP-830 PDA phone on Sprint that is quadband, and came unlocked for use overseas. Its not as sexy as my iPhone (actually, I think its semi-sexy), but it has alot more functionality and apps (Skype, removable memory, file storage, GPS device using a bluetooth receiver, financial program, travel planner, etc.) While in South Africa, I bought a SIM from MTN and surfed the web on my PDA for very reasonable rates.

So, from a power user, the iPhone has several essentials I need for it to replace my PDA. And the price point for domestic use given my usage (not to mention exhorbitant roaming rates), do not make it a good solution for me. But I will keep it as an iPod and WiFi device, and if/when I can network unlock it, I may use it for overseas travel as my secondary device.

Bottom line... looks aren't everything (didn't your mom teach you that?), and not every smartphone fits every need. You don't *have* to sell your soul to ATT for 2 years, if it goes against your grain. And if looking sexy with an iPhone is your be-all-end-all, then do what you want, but I think you should see a therapist.

Think different, outside the box. If you already have T-Mobile, you can sign up for the Hotspot add-on for $20/mo and use your iPhone on WIFI at any Starbucks or other Hotspot. You can always carry a small phone with you, for phone calls... gasp!
 
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