Australian Banks Denied Request to Negotiate Over Apple Pay

[fitshaced]

It was a cheeky stab in the dark and they are as ruthless as any corporation but good decision in the end. Hopefully Westpac announce next week that they will offer Apple Pay. It must be click-of-a-button away, surely.

 

[fermat-au]

(Apple pay with AMEX is a different story tho...not all contactless payment machines take AMEX...which makes it practically useless trying to guess.)

So if add an AMEX card to Apple Pay, your Apple Pay only work on terminals that accept AMEX?
When Apple Pay was announced on of its selling point was that the retailer didn't see you credi card number, but do that see if it is AMEX or not.

 

[randyj]

Apple is just as bad denying use of the NFC through the bank's apps. This situation only exists because the banks want to keep their money and and Apple wants to make more.

I really doubt people are going to spend more just because they have Apple pay.

Apple Pay is an end to end system that uses per use tokens for each transaction. It greatly improves security compared to credit cards. If you lose your phone, you don't need to cancel your card.

I read somewhere that just in Australia the Banks employ hundreds of people to just look after card replacements. In call centres, in issuing new cards, activating them etc etc.

Based on the potential for less fraud, and the banks not having to reissue cards, they should pony up the 0.2% and give their customers a service they want.
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So if add an AMEX card to Apple Pay, your Apple Pay only work on terminals that accept AMEX?
When Apple Pay was announced on of its selling point was that the retailer didn't see you credi card number, but do that see if it is AMEX or not.

No they don't see the Amex number.
I went to return something bought with Apple Pay and they said ok give me your card that matches this number (to refund the money onto). I said I don't have a card with that number.
And yes it only works on terminals that accept Amex.
If you have a VISA with ANZ it works almost everywhere.

 

[Douglas B]

From a consumer standpoint (which is usually totally ignored in situations like this), this is a whole bunch of nothing. Apple Pay isn't all that. It's hard to keep track of places that accept it. But every store accepts credit cards.

Um, where do you live? Basically everywhere in Aus accepts ApplePay except the cash only fish and chip shop.

 

[djcerla]

Using a fingerprint on your phone to secure a piddling $100 or so is overkill.

"640K ought to be enough RAM for anyone."

 

[maflynn]

but the other big banks appear unwilling to forfeit the millions of dollars they would have earned through the fees.

No knowing anything about Australian banks, or the economy, I can't say that I blame those banks for not wanting to forgo millions of dollars.

 

[ironpony]

"These banks want to maintain complete control over their customers."
Require a NFC sticker on your phone?
Sounds like too much control, next they will want to control your right to own a

 

[Douglas B]

I'm not limited to the usual $100 Tap-and-go limit.

Would you mind elaborating on this bit? Are you referring to wireless payments over $100 being accepted *with a PIN* ?

 

[mrmini78]

From a consumer standpoint (which is usually totally ignored in situations like this), this is a whole bunch of nothing. Apple Pay isn't all that. It's hard to keep track of places that accept it. But every store accepts credit cards.

Well in Australia we already have "tap & go" virtually at every store, I have been using Apple Pay since ANZ adopted it and I am yet to find a store where I cannot use it at. I even use it through drive thru (Macdonalds, KFC, Hungry Jacks etc). Even small stores who have portable eft terminals support it due to my ANZ card that is linked to Apple Pay being a Visa Debit card

 

[fermat-au]

No they don't see the Amex number.
I went to return something bought with Apple Pay and they said ok give me your card that matches this number (to refund the money onto). I said I don't have a card with that number.
And yes it only works on terminals that accept Amex.
If you have a VISA with ANZ it works almost everywhere.

Thanks for the info. If you didn't a card with that number how did they do the refund?
Could they refund to that card number then Apple somehow sends the money to your card. I have wondered how returns would work with Apple Pay.

 

[doelcm82]

Using a fingerprint on your phone to secure a piddling $100 or so is overkill. The existing contactless system that is very commonly used now is fine.

If you feel this way, then you have absolutely no dog in this fight. Whether the banks win or Apple wins doesn't affect you at all.

 

[kdarling]

An incredibly misleading headline, especially since it's obvious from all the responses that many people did not go on to read the actual article.

The request was not denied.

An interim grant was not given. Actual decision due in a few months.

We expect to release a draft decision in October 2016.

The ACCC's decision not to grant interim authorization at this time is not indicative of whether or not a draft or final authorization will be granted.

 

[Douglas B]

The article title is false because it implies a final decision.

I agree with those who say if the banks want access to the NFC they an go and build their own iPhone.

Apple may one day open NFC further. It took a year before they allowed TouchID to work for apps.

However, when you currently hold your iPhone to an active payment terminal, the Apple Wallet app opens. Are these banks expecting that their app should open with priority over Apple Wallet? Dreamers.

If Apple gave access and the banks developed their apps, when something goes wrong do the banks blame Apple and Apple blame the banks? This is why end-to-end is better, Apple takes responsibility.

If Apple wants to upgrade their software do they have to ask these banks if it's ok? Like if all these banks have their apps ready to upgrade?

Of course Apple doesn't have to do that now so why would they put themselves in that situation?

Maybe these banks think they set up all these eftpos terminals and shouldn't be paying Apple for transactions through them? Well maybe. (But actually the retailer pays for the terminals.)

But next month all this changes. Because next month ApplePay comes to web for Mac and iOS and then Apple has many more million 'terminals' than the banks.

In theory it will be easier for people to buy online because it will be so much easier for people to complete checkout. Should the banks be able to use that system free? No, I think they should pay Apple a small % for those transactions.

And is a bank app going to be able to use this Apple Pay on the web? No.

They are being short sighted and greedy. The banks should try and make money helping web merchants set up ApplePay on their websites.

I switched to ANZ day 1 of Apple Pay as I'm impatient but I also think they should be rewarded for moving first on this.

 

[doelcm82]

Thanks for the info. If you didn't a card with that number how did they do the refund?
Could they refund to that card number then Apple somehow sends the money to your card. I have wondered how returns would work with Apple Pay.

The company I work for does NOT keep the credit card number (they keep a token where the last four or five digits match your credit card number). This is true whether you use a plastic card or Apple Pay or some other mobile payment system. Their credit card processor creates a token at the time of purchase. We only recently started taking Apple Pay, but the tokenization has been in place for years.

If a store is keeping your full credit card number on file with your transaction then you are at risk of getting that number stolen if the store's systems are hacked.

A store should be able to process a return with Apple Pay if the purchase was made with Apple Pay. It's basic business.

 

[theotherphil]

Apple is just as bad denying use of the NFC through the bank's apps. This situation only exists because the banks want to keep their money and and Apple wants to make more.

I really doubt people are going to spend more just because they have Apple pay.

Surely Apple's 30% markup on in app purchases could apply here? Apple could open up NFC and stipulate a 5% fee for every transaction outside of ApplePay as a condition of its use. Win-win for Apple.

 

[69Mustang]

Click bait headline is click bait. MR please stop embarrassing yourself with National Enquirer type headlines.

"Australian banks denied interim decision over Apple Pay dispute, ruling expected in October" - 9to5 Mac

See, an accurate headline is not hard to write.

 

[theotherphil]

From a consumer standpoint (which is usually totally ignored in situations like this), this is a whole bunch of nothing. Apple Pay isn't all that. It's hard to keep track of places that accept it. But every store accepts credit cards.

Every store that accepts a credit card with payWave, accepts ApplePay. I use my ANZ cards everywhere - in fact, I've not found a retailer that doesn't accept ApplePay when they have payWave terminals.
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Using a fingerprint on your phone to secure a piddling $100 or so is overkill. The existing contactless system that is very commonly used now is fine.

ApplePay allows limitless transactions. I just spent $1,100 at Bunnings with ApplePay - no pin needed.

 

[nextuser]

GOOD.

I'm from Australia, and I can tell you this; our banks are more-often-than-not completely useless. Not many people know that when Apple Pay was announced, and subsequently Android Pay, all of our banks' PR teams seemed to confirm over Facebook and Twitter that their "own mobile wallet solution is in the works."

This understandably made most of the country angry, and a staggeringly vast amount of hatred was directed at each of them on various social media outlets and (I'm assuming) in snail mail. Commonwealth Bank (known colloquially as "Commbank") happens to be one of the worst offenders, having MANDATED customers' iPhones have an NFC compatible sticker on the back, which gets touched to the reader when you wish to make a payment. Of course to use this feature you need to have their app open, which is terribly written, glitches frequently and at least for me, forgets that one of my accounts exists at least once a fortnight. The same goes for Android phones except you can use the chip, but all payments MUST be processed through the app.

I was utterly blown away by ANZ's decision to adopt Apple Pay (and more recently Android Pay). The day it was announced, I swear you could've stuck your head out a window and heard the sound of nerds everywhere signing up for ANZ accounts. It was a beautiful day. Since then, customers of other banks have been getting increasingly bitter over the continued absence of Apple and Android Pay. Both services are wanted by customers in Australia, yet the fat cats running the banks are too busy lining their own pockets--not a joke, our bank CEOs take a stupidly large salary--to even for a nanosecond consider the wants and needs of the people. It's been like this for years. It's any wonder really why they're fighting this; they don't want to lose a cent of that fee revenue.

As an Australian, I applaud the ACCC's initial decision. But sadly they can be bullied into submission, and are quite frequently. The banks as good as said they'd keep fighting it until they win, but from experience we know Apple won't fold.

All that said, ANZ's membership has been apparently increasing exponentially. It's sad that the rest of the banks are gonna let this happen, and not capitalise on the monumental opportunity of adopting Apple and Android Pay.

I live in Melbourne, I'm a nerd, and there's absolutely no way that I would go through the hassle and risk of changing banks simply for Apple Pay. I'm with NAB and I really don't have any complaints.

I am strongly against electronic payment systems though, I really like to use cash. Cash == Freedom. If I use Apple Pay, that brings us one step closer to the elimination of cash and an all electronic monetary system, which means no more freedom. Brothels charge extra if you pay by card.

I also never want to worry about my cash/card running of out battery. I just don't understand the appeal of Apple Pay.

 

[Kaibelf]

If it wasn't a move of greed, Apple would let the banks use the NFC chip for their own apps, and allow the banks to use Apple Pay as well, or Apple would offer Apple pay with no fee, but they do neither as that would remove revenue.

Both the banks and Apple are being greedy. In the end as an Australian I loose out. Apple won't let me use the actually quite good Combank app to pay for things like you can on Samsung, and the banks won't sign up for Apple pay.

Ahh the old "Apple should just give me free stuff" and "who cares if Apple would get blamed for an app compromising security" stance. No. Commbank is perfectly able to use the same secure system with no fuss and weird third party nonsense that the rest of the world uses. It's up to them, and if you lose out, then that's your choice to bank there.

 

[uroshnor]

Apple Pay is not limited to $100 by many banks globally - it's been certified by EMVCo to be in the same category at a full chip and pin transaction (and being tokenised is more secure than most chip & pin transactions)

The Australian Banks ARE limiting it to $100 , in order to position it as being just like Pay Wave, and therefore nothing special.

If Apple were to give the Australian banks access to the NFC, they would either lose EMVCo certification at that level or have to pay to be re-certified with the bank's software installed as well.

The latter does not scale globally, and the former is letting Australian banks undermine the feature set of a global product.

Just re-iterating EMVCo certified Apple Pay to be the same security standard as chip & pin - so the transaction limit should be your daily transaction limit , not $100 (or whatever the local equivalent is) , and many banks world wide have done that already, just not the Australian ones.

 

[apolloa]

Not sure who's side to be on as Apple wants to make the money, but banks are evil necessities who are out to ruin you for profit.

Hmm probably on Apples side as Apple don't ruin hundreds or thousands of life's so an idiot can blab to his mate he's made a bigger bonus then them.....

 

[nebo1ss]

Banks want to profit off of people using a secure payment feature that APPLE developed and maintains that they had no part in. Apple doesn't want the whole piece of the interchange fee pie, just a small piece when their secure payment technology that they spent time and money developing is used.

If they want access to the secure NFC for their apps then they should have to pay something. Nothing in this world is truly free. Name an absorbantly high yearly/monthly fee and they'll step in line to a significantly lower Apple Pay fee system that only comes in to play when it is used.

Apple had nothing to do with developing NFC. The banks want access to the NFC chip in the phone nothing to do with Apple pay and any security features associated with it. They have full access to the NFC chip in Android phones.

 

[KmanOz]

Well Commonwealth has lost a lot of my transactions since Apple Pay got introduced here. I love the fact that I get push notifications to all my devices when my AMEX gets used. The fact that I can log into the AMEX app and see all transactions (AND PAY MY AMEX) from 1 app is awesome as well. Also that stupid tag that I have to stick on my phone just doesn't cut it. I have slim cases and I'm not sticking that **** on my phone because cases just don't fit right.

 

[WordMasterRice]

Ahh the old "Apple should just give me free stuff" and "who cares if Apple would get blamed for an app compromising security" stance. No. Commbank is perfectly able to use the same secure system with no fuss and weird third party nonsense that the rest of the world uses. It's up to them, and if you lose out, then that's your choice to bank there.

What in the hell are you talking about? What in this whole process is free. I paid almost $1000 for my iPhone, ain't nothing free about that. How many people are walking around with free iPhones? Where is apple giving these out?

 

[supertomtom]

So if add an AMEX card to Apple Pay, your Apple Pay only work on terminals that accept AMEX?
When Apple Pay was announced on of its selling point was that the retailer didn't see you credi card number, but do that see if it is AMEX or not.

Before I joined ANZ I found AMEX inconvenient because:

1) not all shops accept AMEX to begin with
2) the ones that do, not all of their payWave terminals will work with AMEX contactless cards (including Apple Pay) and will require you to insert chip and pin.

So in the end it was just too much hassle to use AMEX on Apple Pay.

And to answer your question, the retailer won't know your card number with Apple Pay but it still identifies what type of card it is.