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Apple is just as bad denying use of the NFC through the bank's apps. This situation only exists because the banks want to keep their money and and Apple wants to make more.

I really doubt people are going to spend more just because they have Apple pay.

Initially they might spend a bit more. I know that when Apple Pay first came out, I only went to stores that had Apple Pay and even found an excuse here and there to go out and buy something. Again though, that’s only at first. After a week I was over it.
 
Using a fingerprint on your phone to secure a piddling $100 or so is overkill. The existing contactless system that is very commonly used now is fine.

The security of apple pay is not just touchID. Its the token ID system and how the payment is anonymous. And no existing contactless methods suck, apart from CreditsCards
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I live in Melbourne, I'm a nerd, and there's absolutely no way that I would go through the hassle and risk of changing banks simply for Apple Pay. I'm with NAB and I really don't have any complaints.

I am strongly against electronic payment systems though, I really like to use cash. Cash == Freedom. If I use Apple Pay, that brings us one step closer to the elimination of cash and an all electronic monetary system, which means no more freedom. Brothels charge extra if you pay by card.

I also never want to worry about my cash/card running of out battery. I just don't understand the appeal of Apple Pay.

Lol, next time you get a coffee, train ticket etc wait by the ticket machine until someone pays with apple Pay. By the time you found your notes in your wallet the apple pay transaction is finished. Its a beautiful thing.
 
.....The day it was announced, I swear you could've stuck your head out a window and heard the sound of nerds everywhere signing up for ANZ accounts. It was a beautiful day.....
You're funny.....

It sounds like ANZ decided to be pragmatic about the situation, while at the same time cashing in on signing up defectors (who didn't want to wait any longer) from those other major banks, who are probably pissed at the ANZ executives now.

What do you figure are the chances the regulators will ultimately still side with those other 3 banks?
 
Love Apple Pay with Apple Watch - 2 clicks and I'm done.

A couple of weeks ago I spent almost $2,000 in Officeworks. Most other contactless methods won't allow that.
 
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Nothing more than ANZ PR spin ... hard to quantify by outside sources ... did the supposed newcomers just sign up with a $50 savings account to get access to Apple Pay OR did they move their entire account over i.e. mortgages, lines of credit, etc?

ANZ won't earn many fees from those McDonald's purchases.

I'm glad you're not running any businesses. :rolleyes:
 
I'm glad you're not running any businesses.


That's why my company was so successful ... we never did whimsy.
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For some reason, when I do this, I occasionally experience problems where my transaction doesn't go through.

Have you made multiple fingerprints of the same finger / thumb you use for Touch ID, that can be a great way to overcome dodgy recognition.
 
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Exactly. It's not like the Banks have been giving us a fair go and keeping their profits low to benefit it's members.
The Banks need to suck it up and take the hit to their massive bottom line. The Commonwealth bank recently announced record full year earnings of $9.5 billion AUD... :mad:

Replace "the banks" with "Apple" and the same greed exists... only on an even larger scale. Heck, using the last sentence's logic, Apple should take the hit simply because it makes more than that in profit each quarter :rolleyes:

Apple certainly has the right to try to maximize its profits. Likewise, other businesses certainly have the same right. Neither Apple nor the banks are angels trying to cut profits to help their customers.

It's sad to read how banks are stuck in their own world all over the planet... If they wouldn't have been that greedy and afraid of new technology they would be in a way better situation now. They had enough time to just develop a standardized payment API which can be used by 3rd parties for a minimal fee.

That's exactly what banks (for debit cards) and credit card networks did, starting decades ago. That's why our cards work all over the world. And that's what powers Apple Pay underneath.

Apple didn't invent any "new technology". NFC Apple Pay is just a thin UI layer talking to the actual payment applets in the Secure Element, which use EMV standards for tokenization and authorization, and NFC standards for contactless card emulation.

The push for all that originally came from the credit card networks and banks. With its usual business acumen for timing, Apple saw the perfect opportunity to jump in, and sell its customers to the banks by withholding access to those standard tools.

So it's quite understandable that the banks now want to use the system they helped build, without Apple blocking their access.

OTOH, the credit card networks love Apple Pay, because the Apple contract gave them unprecedented power... as they're the ones tasked with collecting the fee (and purchase statistics) from the banks and passing the money and data back to Apple. Apple was quite clever to play things that way.
 
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You're funny.....

It sounds like ANZ decided to be pragmatic about the situation, while at the same time cashing in on signing up defectors (who didn't want to wait any longer) from those other major banks, who are probably pissed at the ANZ executives now.

What do you figure are the chances the regulators will ultimately still side with those other 3 banks?
Classic game theory at work. 4 banks, and Apple only needs the cooperation of one for Apple Pay to gain a foothold in the country. Meanwhile, neither bank holds any particular loyalty or allegiance to one another, and you know they are always on the lookout for any way to gain an edge over the rest of the competition.

Now that one has already broken ranks and caved in, it's only a matter of time before the other three acquiesce, to avoid losing out.

Well played, Apple. Well played. Slow and steady wins the race.
 
Reality is Apple simply wants their customers money. The masters of smoke and mirrors marketing, Apple's expertise is milking every last dollar from all of us.

I think there is some truth to this, but Apple is more concerned with building a relationship with its customers for the sake of repeat business. There is the potential for some extra revenue with payments done with Apple Pay, but it seems the overall attitude is to have a seamless, easy experience that will make you want to buy more of their devices or subscribe to more of their services. I can't fault them for that.

There are plenty of things I've been critical towards Apple about, but the reality is that in many places, NFC payments were a joke before Apple gave them their marketing and UI polish. Google Wallet was typically reserved for those who liked to tinker and paying with your phone seemed weird (I know there are some parts of the world, particularly Southeast Asia, where mobile phone-based payment systems have existed for years, so I'm primarily speaking about the US and Europe). By the way, a bit off-topic, but does anyone know if Google or Samsung take a cut from payments on their mobile payment systems?

I see it as this: if you want to be on iPhones for NFC payments, you have to use Apple Pay—this creates a consistent set-up and usage experience for the end-user, which goes back to my first paragraph. If you don't want to play by Apple's rules, that's fine - keep issuing cards or supporting apps on other mobile OSes. I do realize that with ANZ joining, it creates some additional pressure for the other three banks, but even some small one-branch banks have joined Apple Pay...surely if it's that much of a financial burden, some of the other, scummy, large banks throughout the world wouldn't have joined and took a stand?
 
surely if it's that much of a financial burden, some of the other, scummy, large banks throughout the world wouldn't have joined and took a stand?


It's NOT a financial burden for US financial institutions because they lagged the world in credit card and debit card issues - hell, they just started issuing chip & pin cards which still require signatures at POS (thousands and thousands of US merchants still only accept magnetic strip cards). Several countries have had contactless pay for years and years and in those countries Apple Pay offers little more than snob appeal for the cult.
 
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It's NOT a financial burden for US financial institutions because they lagged the world in credit card and debit card issues - hell, they just started issuing chip & pin cards which still require signatures at POS (thousands and thousands of US merchants still only accept magnetic strip cards). Several countries have had contactless pay for years and years and in those countries Apple Pay offers little more than snob appeal for the cult.

I'm aware that several other countries have had contactless payments for years, and that the US has not only taken its time, but chose the stupidest method for EMV (chip + signature), and there are plenty of places not "certified" yet, so they have tape or inserts in the EMV slots. It's a mess.

However, Canada and Great Britain have a great contactless infrastructure and multiple banks and aren't necessarily having that same push-back as Australia. If it was such a bad deal for them, wouldn't we be seeing large banks in countries other than Australia reject Apple Pay en-masse?

If it is just "snobbish appeal for the cult," then why would any banks sign on to it in countries where the infrastructure is already well-developed? How would a proprietary banking app in Australia with NFC capabilities be any less snobbish? And finally, if Android Pay and Samsung Pay were offered in more countries, with better payment methods, would that be the same?
 
...then why would any banks sign on to it in countries where the infrastructure is already well-developed?


I'm betting that the British and Canadian institutions are paying Apple next to nothing (Apple simply getting penetration) - if it costs next to nothing OR nothing - no loss to the banks.
 
I'm betting that the British and Canadian institutions are paying Apple next to nothing (Apple simply getting penetration) - if it costs next to nothing OR nothing - no loss to the banks.

Right, so how would Australia be any different? If Apple is price-gouging the three banks there versus other countries, I completely agree that they have the right to be upset.
 
Right, so how would Australia be any different? If Apple is price-gouging the three banks there versus other countries, I completely agree that they have the right to be upset.


The Aussie banks already offer a successful fraud-proof contactless pay credit / debit card (fraud-proof except for those users who are careless and get their cards physically stolen) - Apple wants into their business model and wants to get paid for it - it's called playing hardball.
 
The Aussie banks already offer a successful fraud-proof contactless pay credit / debit card (fraud-proof except for those users who are careless and get their cards physically stolen) - Apple wants into their business model and wants to get paid for it - it's called playing hardball.

I understand that, and am not disagreeing with you, but basically every country participating in Apple Pay that isn't the US have similar systems in place. I'm just asking if it's such a bad deal for Australia since it's basically redundant to what they already have, wouldn't other banks in mainland China, Hong Kong, Singapore, France, Switzerland, Great Britain, and/or Canada also be pitching a fit?
 
... wouldn't other banks in ... Canada also be pitching a fit?


The other thing is, given this "stat", I wonder if the banks in Canada don't see it as much of a hit to their profits to offer their customers the service, particularly if they got a deal from Apple

From the Globe and Mail newspaper

"There are 28.5 million adults with Interac debit cards issued by Canada’s banks, and about 70 million credit cards. But only about 38 per cent of Canadian smartphone users have iPhones, and among them only some are Apple Pay ready (guessing from the global trends, a significant number are likely too old)."
 
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The other thing is, given this "stat", I wonder if the banks in Canada don't see it as much of a hit to their profits to offer their customers the service, particularly if they got a deal from Apple

From the Globe and Mail newspaper

"There are 28.5 million adults with Interac debit cards issued by Canada’s banks, and about 70 million credit cards. But only about 38 per cent of Canadian smartphone users have iPhones, and among them only some are Apple Pay ready (guessing from the global trends, a significant number are likely too old)."

Thanks for sharing that...I wonder how the numbers skew elsewhere, but just about everywhere it is true that it's a fraction of a fraction of the smartphone-using population. Curious what the breakdown is for Android Pay, since more phones should be capable, but not as many banks are on-board (or countries).
 
I doubt Apple would let a third-party wake a phone via NFC to use some other app.

Yet that's how NFC normally works, by watching for a registered App Id (Mastercard, Oyster, Hyatt door key, whatever) and opening the associated app.

... the fraction of a percent that Apple gets from the banks more than makes up for potential fraud in the US and they don't mind it.

Nope, Apple demands more than in-person counterfeit / stolen card fraud costs... even in the US.

The whole fraud thing is a red herring in some ways. The total amount of fraud doesn't lower with EMV and fingerprints and PINs. It simply moves to cardholder-not-present situations. For example, the cost of fraud in say, Australia, is actually now _six_ times what it was when chip & PIN got started. It just moved from in-person cards to online purchases.

Moreover, banks make money by charging to accept the authentication risk. If there's no risk, they stand to make less money. So they're not in a huge hurry anywhere to lock all the doors, which they could do with stricter identification requirements all around.

I am curious if that gets any other support for deployment and management behind-the-scenes, especially since there have been some small podunk banks and credit unions joining in with Apple Pay and I doubt their IT teams are doing all of that themselves.

You're right, smaller banks and credit unions contract with a service provider, because they can't do it on their own. That's an added cost.

You see, Apple's fee is just one part. Mastercard, for example, charges banks per transaction for detokenization, as well as an annual fee for just making a token.

This cost was a fear pointed out early on by small banks and credit unions: Apple Pay is tougher on them, as they often already have slimmer margins. But many feel like they have no choice when their customers threaten to leave.

I'm just asking if it's such a bad deal for Australia since it's basically redundant to what they already have, wouldn't other banks in mainland China, Hong Kong, Singapore, France, Switzerland, Great Britain, and/or Canada also be pitching a fit?

They did resist. The UK banks held out for a long time, complaining about not only Apple's high fee for doing nothing, but also because they felt that Apple's demand for purchase statistics was a privacy issue.

"It is understood the bank is uncomfortable with the amount of personal and financial information Apple wants to collect about its customers. Some executives fear Apple Pay and the data it delivers to Apple could serve as a beachhead for an invasion of the banking industry."

- https://www.macrumors.com/2014/12/29/apple-banks-apple-pay-uk-2015/

The rest of the EU also had to hold out for lower rates, because Apple wanted 0.15% when the banks themselves were restricted to something like 0.22%. They'd have had to give Apple nearly everything.

The Canadians also held out for a long time, until Apple supposedly dropped their fee to about 0.04% plus an annual fee per card.

The American banks have said they now think that Apple needs them more than they need Apple (because iPhone users didn't pick up on Apple Pay anywhere near as much as expected), and their contract is up after three years. I foresee some intense negotiations there.

And now, Australia has learned from all the previous banks, and that's why they want to negotiate legally together. (At least they asked. If Apple was a bank, they'd have formed a cartel in secret, if history is any indicator.)
 
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It's more then a simple repackaged product. Its tightly integrated with the secure element to protect the transaction. Android phones do not offer the same ease and security that Apple has developed with Apple Pay. Opening up the NFC chip to bank apps without compromising the existing level of security would require more development which costs money which is something the banks want Apple to do for free.

I don't see how the banks will win this in the end. The request will be denied. How can three Australian banks force an AMERICAN company to open up access to the NFC chip when the FBI can't even force Apple to unlock an iPhone.

Either sign up for Apple Pay or don't. Don't run crying to the government when people leave you for a bank that does when you had the exact same opportunity to offer it and didn't take it.

Samsung at least uses a secure element and with the inclusion of the MST tech, Samsung Pay can be used almost anywhere. They are pretty much the same. Android pay uses the cloud instead of a secure element but all three rely on tokenization. Ease of use is subjective - put the phone near the terminal and use a fingerprint. Same across the board.

Applr has the advantage of the watch, which is neat. And they really pushed retailers to begin adopting the tech.

The banks don't want to give up revenue and neither does Apple. Simple as that.
 
Every store that accepts a credit card with payWave, accepts ApplePay. I use my ANZ cards everywhere - in fact, I've not found a retailer that doesn't accept ApplePay when they have payWave terminals.
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ApplePay allows limitless transactions. I just spent $1,100 at Bunnings with ApplePay - no pin needed.

Not with Amex I think. Also the fall back after paywave with Amex is signature rather than PIN.
 
So it's quite understandable that the banks now want to use the system they helped build, without Apple blocking their access.

Here's the thing though if I were Apple I'd hold out. Even if like you say Apple Pay it's just a thin UI, the banks can do without it. Lets see who wins in the end, Apples thin UI or the banks ability to to get access to the chip. The Apple Pay user experience is 2nd to none and is much simpler than having the banks individual apps. Bank apps are unnecessarily complex. Double tap home button, select your card and boom. Can't get simpler than that. No bank app will have access at that level. That's what Apple owns, and that's why they will win. In the meantime a smart bank like ANZ has introduced Apple Pay and will get new customers in the process. At some point someone will give, and it won't be Apple I can assure you. And the fact that the banks have got the ACCC involved means that they're cornered already and need Apple more than Apple needs them. ACCC has powers, but not that much.

Android pay uses the cloud instead of a secure element

And that's why I would never use Android.
 
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Here's the thing though if I were Apple I'd hold out.

Yeah, I would too. I agree that it's unlikely they'll have to open NFC. I'm just pointing out two things:
  • it's hypocritical to claim the banks are greedy when Apple is holding back access for money, and
  • a correct NFC implementation would allow any app to pop up automatically.
Opening NFC like this would be of huge benefit to users.

For example, Walmart (and MCX merchants) could implement NFC as another option for their currently barcode-only app. Just hold your finger on the home button and tap the terminal, and the XXX app would come up, apply loyalty or other discounts, charge your card, and off you go... just like Apple / Android / Samsung pay, but with store specific benefits.

Not to mention all the cool NFC hotel, home and car door lock applications, tickets for things like Oyster for the Tube, auto-speaker setup, exchanging info anonymously, device mode changes using RFID tags, etc.

(re cloud tokens) And that's why I would never use Android.

I'm sorry, but people repeating this are just ignorant of the technology involved. It's like saying fingerprint authentication on Apple Pay is not good enough. Yes, it's not perfect and it can be fooled, but it's good enough for real life.

Note that Android Pay can use a Secure Element if a device has one. However, it doesn't need one, and security is good enough without it. This allows more inexpensive devices to use Android Pay.

As one expert put it: "So what is better? Actually, that is the wrong question. The real question is whether either technology reaches the level of security needed to protect payment data." And both do. And banks are already using cloud tokens.
 
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