Australian Banks Seek Open Access to NFC Functions of Apple Pay in New Application

[Jetship]

It appears they are not very successful. Since ANZ already offers Apple Pay now it's only a matter of time.

See you're not from Australia so you don't know exactly ANZ isn't exactly the best bank here, they needed something like this to be different but it really hasn't worked that well so why would the other banks do it, they already have large amounts of customers.

 

[Paul Dawkins]

See you're not from Australia so you don't know exactly ANZ isn't exactly the best bank here, they needed something like this to be different but it really hasn't worked that well so why would the other banks do it, they already have large amounts of customers.

First of all this is subjective and second it is completely irrelevant anyway. The key point here is that in order to have critical mass ALL banks have to stand firm together, but now when one bank saw that they can leverage this situation the bricks will fall quickly.

 

[2010mini]

How do they figure Apple has a "stranglehold" as they frazed it, on mobile wallet market? Last I checked, Samsung, Google and others have mobile wallets. No one is forced to buy or use an iPhone.
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This will be interesting to watch. Sounds like the banks are essentially asking for level playing field against Apple. Not sure that's such a bad thing.

They want government to secure their market share. That is not the role of government.

 

[vcboard]

Just wondering, the NFC protocol / standard used by Apple Pay itself is not Apple proprietary, right? Since it's compatible with Visa payWave and Mastercard PayPass.

 

[Rocketman]

Since Samsung is already open and also in higher unit ownership, the Apple offering while closed, is not anti-competitive at all. People can opt in to Apple's safer closed system, or opt into Samsung's proprietary offering, or any third party app on an Android device of any brand even beyond Samsung. The plaintiffs do not have a case.

 

[Small White Car]

Apple would rather never offer Apple Pay in Australia than compromise the security of the entire system globally.

How would it compromise it?

Aren't the inner-working of NFC hardware well understood? What new information would anyone gain from this? They're just taking about the hardware, not Apple Pay.

Is this not similar to giving apps access to the GPS? That doesn't mean they can then hack into your Waze account.

EDIT: That's actually an interesting idea, actually. A lot of you say the banks are wrong for wanting to steal Apple's work, which they don't deserve.

So, just curious, if next year Apple tells Waze and Google they can't use the iPhone's GPS and that only Apple Maps can give you directions, would you all agree that that is a reasonable course of action and Waze should suck it up and build their own phone?

 

[Paul Dawkins]

How would it compromise it?

Aren't the inner-working of NFC hardware well understood? What new information would anyone gain from this?

NFC is just a technology used to communicate data. That's why you can't just add any NFC card to your iPhone, because there is also a backend that has to be implemented.

 

[Small White Car]

NFC is just a technology used to communicate data. That's why you can't just add any NFC card to your iPhone, because there is also a backend that has to be implemented.

That's my point. Aren't these banks asking to add their own backend?

Or have I misunderstood their intent?

 

[Paul Dawkins]

That's my point. Aren't these banks asking to add their own backend?

Or have I misunderstood their intent?

In order for Apple Pay to work on banks network the bank has to implement certain things that Apple tells them, but the banks are also asking access to those private APIs that Apple uses so that they can create their own ugly looking, crappy, user tracking version of Apple Pay.

 

[vcboard]

NFC is just a technology used to communicate data. That's why you can't just add any NFC card to your iPhone, because there is also a backend that has to be implemented.

You are not adding / cloning the card's NFC, but storing the card information into the Apple device which is then converted into a token. Upon making a purchase, this token is the one transmitted via NFC to whatever payment terminal that accepts it. It's the same as paying using any NFC capable credit cards.

The Apple device is simulating the NFC capable credit card. So if I'm right, I don't see anything proprietary on the NFC part of the Apple Pay except to get access the token processing innards of Apple Pay.

 

[doelcm82]

Just wondering, the NFC protocol / standard used by Apple Pay itself is not Apple proprietary, right? Since it's compatible with Visa payWave and Mastercard PayPass.

That part is standard. Apple's proprietary contribution is the way they provide biometric security and isolate access to the NFC hardware from third-party software (both good guys and "bad hombres").

 

[vcboard]

That part is standard. Apple's proprietary contribution is the way they provide biometric security and isolate access to the NFC hardware from third-party software (both good guys and "bad hombres").

Then I don't see a valid reason to access the NFC hardware part of the Apple Pay for these banks.

 

[Small White Car]

In order for Apple Pay to work on banks network the bank has to implement certain things that Apple tells them, but the banks are also asking access to those private APIs that Apple uses so that they can create their own ugly looking, crappy, user tracking version of Apple Pay.

That's the old news from a month or so back. This article says:

"...have today announced they have narrowed the application to solely focus on open access to the NFC function."

I gotta say that, as a consumer, I can't think of a good reason that I should oppose this.

Of course I can explain why Apple doesn't want it. But for the consumer I don't see how it would lessen my own security.

 

[Paul Dawkins]

You are not adding / cloning the card's NFC, but storing the card information into the Apple device which is then converted into a token. Upon making a purchase, this token is the one transmitted via NFC to whatever payment terminal that accepts it. It's the same as paying using any NFC capable credit cards.

The Apple device is simulating the NFC capable credit card. So if I'm right, I don't see anything proprietary on the NFC part of the Apple Pay except to get access the token processing innards of Apple Pay.

Banks want API access to NFC chip, because currently you can't access it.
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That's the old news from a month or so back. This article says:

"...have today announced they have narrowed the application to solely focus on open access to the NFC function."

I gotta say that, as a consumer, I can't think of a good reason that I should oppose this.

Of course I can explain why Apple doesn't want it. But for the consumer I don't see how it would lessen my own security.

These old news are what it's all about.

 

[doelcm82]

You are not adding / cloning the card's NFC, but storing the card information into the Apple device which is then converted into a token. Upon making a purchase, this token is the one transmitted via NFC to whatever payment terminal that accepts it. It's the same as paying using any NFC capable credit cards.

The Apple device is simulating the NFC capable credit card. So if I'm right, I don't see anything proprietary on the NFC part of the Apple Pay except to get access the token processing innards of Apple Pay.

Apple's NFC chip hardware is integrated with the TouchID chip, which is isolated from the rest of iOS. This allows more control over the authentication. Fewer opportunities for hacking.

Basically, if they gave access to banks and other random third parties to access the NFC and there were a security breach, some users (and nonusers) would blame Apple for being so stupid as to give access to third parties. The best approach for Apple is not to be stupid.
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Of course I can explain why Apple doesn't want it. But for the consumer I don't see how it would lessen my own security.

After your security got breached you'd think of a reason.

 

[vcboard]

Banks want API access to NFC chip, because currently you can't access it.
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These old news are what it's all about.

But, why? It's not like that they will be able to support Apple Pay for free even if they have access to the hardware schematics and firmware source.

The thing with Apple Pay is about the whole system, both hardware, software and the back-end, such as the token generation, validation with banks upon adding the card, validation of token during payment, and so on.

 

[randyj]

Apple would rather never offer Apple Pay in Australia than compromise the security of the entire system globally. Australia is a small market by comparison. This will go absolutely nowhere for the banks involved and is a huge waste of time.

Australia may be a small market, however it was reported it has the highest adoption of Apple Pay transactions per user.
If you bank with ANZ in Australia, you can use Apple Pay in close to 100% of shops.
This is a very important market for Apple.

 

[doelcm82]

Then I don't see a valid reason to access the NFC hardware part of the Apple Pay for these banks.

It wouldn't just be for these banks. It would end up being for everyone, and when something went wrong, Apple would be named as a party in the lawsuit, along with the banks, and possibly you, for suggesting there was no harm in opening it up.

 

[vcboard]

It wouldn't just be for these banks. It would end up being for everyone, and when something went wrong, Apple would be named as a party in the lawsuit, along with the banks, and possibly you, for suggesting there was no harm in opening it up.

I'm all to make the whole thing open source. But to open for a certain few, NO.

 

[Paul Dawkins]

But, why? It's not like that they will be able to support Apple Pay for free even if they have access to the hardware schematics and firmware source. The thing with Apple Pay is about the whole system, both hardware, software and the back-end, such as the token generation, validation with banks upon adding the card, validation of token during payment, and so on.

When they have the access to APIs they can to whatever they want. Loyalty cards, different debit/credit cards with all that nonsense, also their own Apple Pay type system. Of course they would track the **** out of it.

They would now what you buy, how much it costs, how often you buy it, where you buy it etc.

This is very valuable information.

 

[doelcm82]

I'm all to make the whole thing open source. But to open for a certain few, NO.

So no real security, then? Why not make the banks' systems open source, too?

 

[Small White Car]

After your security got breached you'd think of a reason.

I still don't understand how giving 'bank A' access to NFC hardware has any bearing on me using Apple Pay with 'bank B.' They'd be totally different systems.

 

[vcboard]

So no real security, then? Why not make the banks' systems open source, too?

Open source does not mean no real security. But discussion on this should be another topic altogether.

 

[andybow]

So the banks should be charged money every time someone uses Apple Pay when the banks built the infrastructure themselves? how is that fair, also we already have a NFC payments system with out cards anyway so it's not like the banks have no NFC cards already.

EDIT: I assume you all ain't from Australia, so don't take apples side so quickly.

Hi
I am from Australia, this is crappy protest by the Banks. If it is so unfair why are ANZ using it?. It is not unfair because as you point out they have their existing systems which are insecure and prone to paywave frauds. ApplePay is a different system with Apple suppling technology at the phone and the back end. So lets move on

 

[Boatboy24]

So the banks should be charged money every time someone uses Apple Pay when the banks built the infrastructure themselves? how is that fair, also we already have a NFC payments system with out cards anyway so it's not like the banks have no NFC cards already.

EDIT: I assume you all ain't from Australia, so don't take apples side so quickly.

Through the use of Apple Pay, the banks stand to save themselves millions by reducing fraud.