Autodesk Releases AutoCAD LT on Mac App Store

[aaarrrgggh]

Autodesk is still pricing like it's 1995. Sorry, but the pricing for all CAD/CAM/CAE Solid Modeling NURBS based solutions and FEA/FEM solutions are truly absurd.

By the time you take in the price of the Mac Pro Workstation [not the most expensive part in the equation], the Nvidia Quadro or AMD FirePro, never mind each respective company's Tesla and Firestream GPGPUs, adding the additional $3,995 for CAD and then probably another $20k for FEA/FEM like Ansys 13 Mechanical you have to wonder if they [CAD/CAM/FEA/CFD Corporations] really live in another world.

I agree the pricing is absurd; it is a con. But, you can run AutoCAD (or Revit) on a $1500 workstation pretty easily. You wouldn't have an expensive license for CFD or FEA software on the same machine-- either a network license or a dedicated box.

My company has AutoCAD, Revit, Creative Suite, and several specialized apps, in addition to various MS licenses. Average per employee is about $8000 for a workstation ($10k per engineer). Averaged over 4 years for software and 2.5 for hardware, it is about 5% of an engineer's salary. A significant capital outlay, but nothing compared to the 15% of salary for rent, 10% for healthcare, or 15% for other taxes, 401k match, etc.

We are smart with our money though-- 5 years on the same QuickBooks, and maximize use of free and demo software.

You want to be gouged... Look no farther than Salesforce!

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You could ask the same question about industrial cement mixers. I'm not sure you'd sell a lot more of them if you cut the price 90%. But I'm quite sure you wouldn't make any more money.

Developing software like that costs a lot of money. There are only a limited number of people who need it. Hence, they pay a lot of money.

That would be a logical argument if there were material improvements to the software over the past 15 years other than stability and bugfixes. It is the captive audience and forced upgrades that make the insult of pricing.

 

[derickdub]

if it is a joke why does almost every engineering company use it? I don't find it a joke to be honest, I find it a good program for what it is intended to do.

I wouldn't call AutoCAD a joke, but if all you need it for is basic 2D/3D modeling other software that could easily perform just as well and cost way less or is simply free. The way I see it AutoCAD as a program alone isn't much better than others, but when you take its integration into other software such as AutoDesk's own products and even other companies products or the fact that it's so widely used, it is worth the price tag.

 

[mdriftmeyer]

I live in that world.

Solidworks Premium/Premium Simulation
Autodesk CFD Simulation (was CFdesign)
GibbsCAM with most of the bells and whistles.

In this world, we don't complain about prices; we complain about subscription/maintenance costs because that is the commitment that you make every year to keep up to date.

And yes as a matter of fact to your unasked question; I would switch in a minute to Inventor if Autodesk tossed a decent version on the mac.

As a Mechanical Engineer I know your pain. I'm just surprised this pattern by the big players hasn't fallen flat on their faces yet. Someone has to come along and make an innovative series of key products that can make them re-evaluate these price/service schemes.

We [us NeXT alumni] used to sell NeXTStep for $799 User/ $4999 Developer and EOF 2.0/WOF3.x with an entry product for a few hundred to Enterprise at $50k.

Java pricing and the broad pick of expansive libraries/toolkits cut those margins down to size.

In many ways, the Engineering/Architecture/Physics worlds are in their price infancy.

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I agree the pricing is absurd; it is a con. But, you can run AutoCAD (or Revit) on a $1500 workstation pretty easily. You wouldn't have an expensive license for CFD or FEA software on the same machine-- either a network license or a dedicated box.

My company has AutoCAD, Revit, Creative Suite, and several specialized apps, in addition to various MS licenses. Average per employee is about $8000 for a workstation ($10k per engineer). Averaged over 4 years for software and 2.5 for hardware, it is about 5% of an engineer's salary. A significant capital outlay, but nothing compared to the 15% of salary for rent, 10% for healthcare, or 15% for other taxes, 401k match, etc.

We are smart with our money though-- 5 years on the same QuickBooks, and maximize use of free and demo software.

You want to be gouged... Look no farther than Salesforce!

----------



That would be a logical argument if there were material improvements to the software over the past 15 years other than stability and bugfixes. It is the captive audience and forced upgrades that make the insult of pricing.

Salesforce CRM/ Accounting Software for Corporations is a rip-off, always has been, always will be.

The tools for my Mechanical Engineering background have always been high as the big players have been few and far between. The price quote I cited, per seat for Ansys, comes from the US Government price discount based upon a $500k minimum purchase order from 2003-2013 lock in contract.

Whether it's CATIA, PTL former Pro/Engineer, Dessault Systems, and more the price schemes have always been around the same, regardless of vendor, yet never in my 20 years also working in IT [Second degree in Computer Science] have I ever seen any investigations for collusion on specialty tool sets.

If I ever needed a product like Salesforce set of products I'd better be a corporation of thousands. None of their products were ever used at NeXT nor when I was at Apple [though I'm less sure about this one as I was never down in the Austin area to check, but we had 500 custom internal applications at our disposal developed in-house at Apple when us NeXT folks arrived].

 

[jglavin]

I agree the pricing is absurd; it is a con. But, you can run AutoCAD (or Revit) on a $1500 workstation pretty easily. You wouldn't have an expensive license for CFD or FEA software on the same machine-- either a network license or a dedicated box.

My company has AutoCAD, Revit, Creative Suite, and several specialized apps, in addition to various MS licenses. Average per employee is about $8000 for a workstation ($10k per engineer). Averaged over 4 years for software and 2.5 for hardware, it is about 5% of an engineer's salary. A significant capital outlay, but nothing compared to the 15% of salary for rent, 10% for healthcare, or 15% for other taxes, 401k match, etc.

Working at a similar company the thing that baffles me the most is that $1000 a year includes basically NO service or support for the software. If we want to call up Autodesk to get some support for the software we pay them gobs of money per seat for, it's something a hundred bucks just to get them on the phone and then prices keep on going the longer/more difficult the problem.

We basically are forced to go to the local sales reps who will come to the office and work with us for about the same rates as the phone support.

 

[CubusX]

Yes

Talk about a dent in the wallet.

I'm in mechanical engineering (going to senoir year) and have only had one class where we learned basics of autocad.
Any one have any idea if they teach more intense classes in my last year (I'm talking 3D modeling etc)? I would love to learn more advanced autocad.

I would hope you take 3D modeling classes. Check out Autodesk Inventor. When I was in school it had Mechanical Desktop, AutoCAD, and Inventor rolled into one package. AutoDesk deals with educational releases through outside sources, which does not break the bank. The downside is that it has "this has been created with an edactuonal release" stampedon any printouts.

Another 3D program available is Solidworks.

Check them out.

 

[dukebound85]

Engineering degrees from schools around here don't focus much on modeling either. I do notice MET degrees have a bit more classes in it, but the only degrees that get heavily involved in CAD are AA degrees in drafting/design.

I disagree completely.

I think schools are more concerned with teaching the process of testing ideas and theory than they are with designing something, at least in straight up engineering programs.

True, however, one needs to learn how to implement those designs to a computer that can then be made to drawings that can then be used to manufacture the parts.

I can't imagine engineering programs not utilizing modeling software to be frank. Not only does it teach one how to design with manufacturing in mind, but you can also analyze designs with respect to given forces that you simply can not do by hand (as it would take much too long).

In my experience, one learns 3d modeling (Creo-formally ProE and Solidworks are the two big players), then Finite Element Analysis and computational fluid dynamics in the forms of other applications such as Abaqus, Fluent, Gambit, etc that you must use at some point to analyze any system and be worth your salt in industry

 

[MattInOz]

AutoDesk probably doesn't mind the 30% cut since this is probably the same cut they give to their AutoDesk authorized resellers per license sold. These Autodesk resellers are relentless vultures like car salesmen but worse.

Well at least their not leaning on the competitors customers anymore....
That was a fun period.
Legal letters claiming that if we where using CAD and it wasn't AutoCAD we must being stealing AutoCAD.

 

[auero]

Nine hundred bucks? And they wonder why people torrent their software

More than likely if you're using this software then its for educational use or for business use. If you're using it in the business standpoint then I'm sure you can afford it. In fact you can even write software when doing your taxes for your business.

 

[derickdub]

I disagree completely.



True, however, one needs to learn how to implement those designs to a computer that can then be made to drawings that can then be used to manufacture the parts.

I can't imagine engineering programs not utilizing modeling software to be frank. Not only does it teach one how to design with manufacturing in mind, but you can also analyze designs with respect to given forces that you simply can not do by hand (as it would take much too long).

In my experience, one learns 3d modeling (Creo-formally ProE and Solidworks are the two big players), then Finite Element Analysis and computational fluid dynamics in the forms of other applications such as Abaqus, Fluent, Gambit, etc that you must use at some point to analyze any system and be worth your salt in industry

Of course you're going to learn FEA/FEM and CFD, but I know that a BSME degree from ODU only requires a few courses in engineering or mechanical design. It doesn't get as involved in AutoCAD or similar software as much as a drafting and design cert or AA from a tech school would. I guess I was referring more to the drafting/creating working drawings part of CAD than the computational part, which AutoCAD itself isn't really utilized for (at least not in my experiences).

 

[rdlink]

Originally Posted by MattJessop
What are they constructing there in that screenshot? The death star???

Nope, the new Apple campus

If you're Microsoft it's the same thing...

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Nine hundred bucks? And they wonder why people torrent their software

Disgusting and not even remotely funny. Justification for theft just because you don't agree with their pricing? Gee, I wonder why civilization is going to Hell in a hand basket...

Do you stand in front of the Mercedes dealership and hand out bricks?

 

[divinox]

Agreed. It's like getting on a plane. In the words of George Carlin, "**** you, I'm getting in the plane."

You don't say "in the Internet" because the Internet is an abstract idea. A store, on the other hand, is tangible.

On in this instance is probably due to the historically used "on board" (heck, we still talk about "boarding"). To me that is a somewhat valid excuse. "On" a store, on the other hand, is just plain out stupid.

p.s., as for the interwebs we also have to consider things like "surfing the web" etc, which clearly point us towards using "on (the web)". Last time i checked, few people surfed inside of things :- )

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Which is correct? "Lady Blah Blah's new single is available now on iTunes." or
"Lady Blah Blah's new single is available now in iTunes."

To be honest i think i'd prefer "at" iTunes, but part of me thinks im only saying that to mess with you.

p.s. i dont really have anything against someone saying "on itunes", "on the itunes store" on the other hand...

 

[Nebulance]

That price still blows my mind. What would drive the cost of that? The physics involved in those calculations to render the graphics isn't all that complicated (concerning the vectors needed to draw all the polygons and planes etc)... I deal with that kind of software (on the physics level) on a daily basis. Maybe it's tied to the efficiency of the code to execute all of the commands on the GUI?

 

[ghostlyorb]

AutoCAD>turboCAD

 

[divinox]

Disgusting and not even remotely funny. Justification for theft just because you don't agree with their pricing? Gee, I wonder why civilization is going to Hell in a hand basket...

Do you stand in front of the Mercedes dealership and hand out bricks?

Funny or not it is the reality for these companies, a reality they are quite happy with. You see, they know they cannot get thousands of dollars from someone playing with their software. However, out of the bunch of people that do play with it some will come to master it. They can then in turn use it professionally, and when they do (and make significant money doing so) they usually end up paying the license.

This explains why they give the software away to students. This also explain why others (such as Adobe) employ similar strategies.

Im quite certain that you could probably download their software and send them a written confession without them pressing charges. You see, unlike the music industry, they realize that money they never wouldve gotten in the first place does not equal money lost. Heck, theyre smart enough to realize that they are actually benefiting from it (in general that is, there are surely people using it professionally without paying licenses - but thats really a different animal all together).

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That price still blows my mind. What would drive the cost of that? The physics involved in those calculations to render the graphics isn't all that complicated (concerning the vectors needed to draw all the polygons and planes etc)... I deal with that kind of software (on the physics level) on a daily basis. Maybe it's tied to the efficiency of the code to execute all of the commands on the GUI?

Main reason likely being limited customer base. With fewer consumers to share cost of development prices naturally goes up.

 

[MattInOz]

That price still blows my mind. What would drive the cost of that? The physics involved in those calculations to render the graphics isn't all that complicated (concerning the vectors needed to draw all the polygons and planes etc)... I deal with that kind of software (on the physics level) on a daily basis. Maybe it's tied to the efficiency of the code to execute all of the commands on the GUI?

There are two big differences between game physics and physics modeled in these programmes. I'm assuming that game physics and modeling is what most people would be judging these prices against.

First is correctness. If there is a quirk in a games physics and modelling engine that leads to a mistake. There isn't a lot of consequence to that, your character in game might die but real people can't be restored to the last save point.

Second games engines just render to the screen then within a short period mostly just forget the results. A CAD engine needs to be able to use the results, store them, recreate them, rely on them for further calculations, recreate them and get the same result every time.

In games they can take massive short cuts and have a massively larger market. Even games compared to Animation Rendering will have the same cost pressures.

 

[toddybody]

I'm curious as to the 999.99 ceiling. Is there some tax implication or something?

 

[Raineer]

I'm curious as to the 999.99 ceiling. Is there some tax implication or something?

My assumption is that it is to protect people against "accidentally clicking" on a $50,000 item and then having to sort that out with banks.

I wish SolidWorks would port to OSX, this space needs more competition.

SolidWorks is more than "another option to try", around my area it is used substantially more often than AutoCAD. This is likely due to it being taught as the primary at CU, but it seems to work well enough for 90% of the ME's in the area.

 

[nextdimension]

Acad Lite better not have a weblink to purchase the upgrade to the full version!

 

[annyW32f]

thank you for sharing

 

[adder7712]

Acad Lite better not have a weblink to purchase the upgrade to the full version!

Nah, Lodsys is already planning to sue the hell out of Autodesk.

 

[TheStonepedo]

2D-only / Drafting in College / Integration is Crucial

...3D Modeling...

The software in this post's topic does not do 3D and has next-to-nothing to do with modeling - AutoCAD LT is good for architectural / MEP plan-view drawings and isometric risers and an occasional shop drawing.

...CAD Courses in College...

While going to school for a BSME (graduated in 2006) 2D/3D drafting was a single-semester course.
Engineers go to school to learn engineering design and draftsmen go to school to become CAD whizzes.
I cannot imagine paying university tuition rates for additional technical CAD courses when on-the-job training from experienced draftsmen and/or engineers would suffice.

The way I see it AutoCAD as a program alone isn't much better than others, but when you take its integration into other software such as AutoDesk's own products and even other companies products or the fact that it's so widely used, it is worth the price tag.

The boss at the MEP firm for which I work let me try a Mac for about a week, but data copied from Excel for Mac could only be pasted as images into AutoCAD LT for Windows in Parallels.
Being unable to dynamically update schedules in drawings forced us to ditch our attempt at using OS X and switch back to Windows.
If AutoCAD LT for Mac supports embedded Excel spreadsheet data it may be viable - it's a heck of a lot cheaper through MAS than the Windows version is through our vendor

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_5 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8L1 Safari/6533.18.5)
3. If you simply want to do engineering drawings on the Mac there are other solutions. Right now you can find Draftsite for free on the net.

DraftSight link for the curious.

 

[MrNomNoms]

At my university we use mostly Solidworks for 3D modeling in the ME Dept. AutoCAD, so far, has only been used very quickly in one of my MATE classes.

SolidWorks is the big thing that Apple really need to get on the Mac to really win over the engineers because right now there is Maple, Mathlab, AutoCAD with the missing component being SolidWorks.

 

[Liquorpuki]

Still waiting for Microstation to get on the Mac...

 

[HelveticaRoman]

Anyone who jumps into this in the light of Apple's treatment of its professional markets must want their head examined.

 

[stevensr123]

Anyone who jumps into this in the light of Apple's treatment of its professional markets must want their head examined.

huh what are you talking about?

I agree apple have been treating the pro's like crap, but this has nothing to do with apple's treatment/view (in terms of development of the software).