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AVCHD or HDV Tape - About to get Camcorder
- Thread starter oceanzen
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I am also in the same boat. But due to another reason, the dumming down of camcorders. The older minidv cam's had LOADS more features(MANUAL this and manual that, mic input, headphone jack), but the newer ones & the avchd cam's don't have this; unless you're willing to pay a grand or more.
The HV30 comes closest, but it has a focus dial, not ring.
I want to do home movies, but I also want to do low & no budget shorts & features in the future.
The avchd don't come with a viewfinder anymore...lol...
The closest I came to a dream avchd cam around 1000-1200 I believe it was panasonic that I saw in circuit city(gzhd7) that had a FOCUS ring.
I do see that panasonic has a prosumer cam w/ recording on sd, but it costs about 2 grand. I'm debating to get that or buy a prosumer minidv(gl2 for around the same price or another panasonic prosumer minidv I saw for about 1200).
I also would prefer 3ccd as a website that will pay you for videos, and other job postings, I saw want a 3ccd cam.
What do you guys say?
The HV30 comes closest, but it has a focus dial, not ring.
I want to do home movies, but I also want to do low & no budget shorts & features in the future.
The avchd don't come with a viewfinder anymore...lol...
The closest I came to a dream avchd cam around 1000-1200 I believe it was panasonic that I saw in circuit city(gzhd7) that had a FOCUS ring.
I do see that panasonic has a prosumer cam w/ recording on sd, but it costs about 2 grand. I'm debating to get that or buy a prosumer minidv(gl2 for around the same price or another panasonic prosumer minidv I saw for about 1200).
I also would prefer 3ccd as a website that will pay you for videos, and other job postings, I saw want a 3ccd cam.
What do you guys say?
Just an update to my last post
Had a chance to shoot with a Canon HF100 (SDHC) and a HV30 (tape) today. I shot about 40 minutes using both cameras side by side and on the same settings. Subject was landscapes, dogs running around, kids at the park, etc. I played both back to a HD projector in a true A/B switching.
I was surprised how close the images were -- exposure, color balance, etc. The HF10 was a touch warmer, which often looked better on skin tones. The HV30 also had a tad less contrast which seemed to help it not blow out as much... also made the image look flatter at times. Of course the color balance, exposure, contrast, etc can all be adjusted as a custom preset. The most important thing to me was sharpness and digital artifacts... the 2 were identical. No noticeable difference between them even with kids on bikes, cars and too fast panning.
So HDV vs AVCHD really comes down to which do you want? Oh, and I plugged the HF10's SDHC card into a card reader on my MBP. iMovie imported it just a easy as a miniDV.
Anybody want to buy a couple unused miniDV tapes
MRM, the Sony SR11/12 does have a view finder and I think the HG20/21 does too.. I personally use them so rarely, I don't mind. I find I get a good 2 hand hold and if the sun is bright I can cup my hand around the LCD. I'd rather have one, but it didn't stop me from buying without. As far as the focus dial on the HV30 and many Sonys, it's really not that bad once you use it, not exactly a focus ring, but not too bad.
Had a chance to shoot with a Canon HF100 (SDHC) and a HV30 (tape) today. I shot about 40 minutes using both cameras side by side and on the same settings. Subject was landscapes, dogs running around, kids at the park, etc. I played both back to a HD projector in a true A/B switching.
I was surprised how close the images were -- exposure, color balance, etc. The HF10 was a touch warmer, which often looked better on skin tones. The HV30 also had a tad less contrast which seemed to help it not blow out as much... also made the image look flatter at times. Of course the color balance, exposure, contrast, etc can all be adjusted as a custom preset. The most important thing to me was sharpness and digital artifacts... the 2 were identical. No noticeable difference between them even with kids on bikes, cars and too fast panning.
So HDV vs AVCHD really comes down to which do you want? Oh, and I plugged the HF10's SDHC card into a card reader on my MBP. iMovie imported it just a easy as a miniDV.
Anybody want to buy a couple unused miniDV tapes
MRM, the Sony SR11/12 does have a view finder and I think the HG20/21 does too.. I personally use them so rarely, I don't mind. I find I get a good 2 hand hold and if the sun is bright I can cup my hand around the LCD. I'd rather have one, but it didn't stop me from buying without. As far as the focus dial on the HV30 and many Sonys, it's really not that bad once you use it, not exactly a focus ring, but not too bad.
That's a bit of a none issue 'cause viewfinders, especially the tiny ones on consumer cameras, are too low res to be used to judge focus. Even the built-in LCDs can't hack it which is why you see different forms of focus assist features on prosumer and higher cameras.
Lethal
Ya, I see your point. However there are 2 other reasons for using a viewfinder:
[power usage] If you look at an manual for a camcorder that
has a lcd and a viewfinder, you'll see the significant difference in power consumption. So when you want to shoot a lot, using the viewfinder will let you shoot longer.
[image] viewfinders give you a more accurate representation of what the image will look like. With an lcd you may have forgotten that you increased or decreased the brightness, so when you finally see the image on the TV or when you're editing it, it may look totally different.
CMD:
Thanks for the feedback. I may just have to check a local photo dealer and see if any have a hv30 in stock so I can try. Be kinda hard to do a rack focus with it though, right?
I did see a samsung miniDv for around $150. It allows manual focus with a menu dial, and manual setting of shutter and exposure. Makes me wonder whether to get that for just home stuff or pay a little more ($220 or so) for an SD camcorder that may not have all that manual settings. If anything, if I were to go for a prosumer miniDv, it'd come in handy as a tape player ;oP
HDV for mine
Thought I'd add my two bobs worth to the discussion. I bought the Panasonic HDC-SD9 with records in AVCHD. I then had to up grade my computuer to something that rivals NASSA, to handle full HD editing... and even with the new kick ass computer, rendering is still slow and painful.
After some research, I invested in the HV30 (Canon's improvement on the HV20) and not only noticed that the picture quality was improved (WOW, particularly with less noise in low light), but also editing is a breeze now.
I've heard the new Canon HF100 has finally produced picture quality in AVCHD format to rivals the HV30, but for mine the editing time pushed me away from the AVCHD. - if you read the reviews on www.camcorderinfo.com - they cover both cameras in much detail.
Thought I'd add my two bobs worth to the discussion. I bought the Panasonic HDC-SD9 with records in AVCHD. I then had to up grade my computuer to something that rivals NASSA, to handle full HD editing... and even with the new kick ass computer, rendering is still slow and painful.
After some research, I invested in the HV30 (Canon's improvement on the HV20) and not only noticed that the picture quality was improved (WOW, particularly with less noise in low light), but also editing is a breeze now.
I've heard the new Canon HF100 has finally produced picture quality in AVCHD format to rivals the HV30, but for mine the editing time pushed me away from the AVCHD. - if you read the reviews on www.camcorderinfo.com - they cover both cameras in much detail.
I don't really get this. Are you editing on a Mac? Both AVCHD and HDV are going to be converted to (probably) Apple Intermediate Codec (if you're using iMovie or Final Cut Express) which means that subsequent to importing the editing, rendering, and exporting speeds for AVCHD or HDV source footage will be identical (except for perhaps the fact that HDV imports at 1440x1080 instead of 1920x1080 for AVCHD from the SD9 recording at its highest bitrate).
I use an SD9 with a 2GHz C2D MAC MINI with no problems. Import takes perhaps 1.5x to 2x real time (depending on the scene), and basic editing is a cinch. Perhaps NASA (assuming you mean the National Aeronautics and Space Administration and not Newham All Star Sports Academy) is running on Mac Minis now - I suppose it's possible, since they put a man on the moon with less.
Andrew.
You can edit HDV directly. Whether it's good or bad to do that is another matter, but it can be edited natively.
For stuff like home videos, I've edited HDV and it comes out looking just fine. From what I understand, you start to run into problems if you start doing more effects in post with native HDV.
But yeah, if you can import and convert (that's what you mean right?) at 2x realtime then it's not a big matter to convert to AIC.
For stuff like home videos, I've edited HDV and it comes out looking just fine. From what I understand, you start to run into problems if you start doing more effects in post with native HDV.
But yeah, if you can import and convert (that's what you mean right?) at 2x realtime then it's not a big matter to convert to AIC.
I was under the impression that import of AVCHD took forever; you're saying iMovie just uploaded it quickly?
I'm also looking at the HF10/100 vs the FS100. I'm thinking of staying with standard-def video for now, transition to HD in the future. Will the HF10 record in standard def?
Dave
Oh it does take forever. HDV is real time (1hr video = 1hr to import). AVCHD depends on your processor but on a MBP 1hr was closer to 2hrs.
I read there were issues with iMovie not seeing the video, not importing, etc. but it couldn't have been much easier -- eject the SD card from the camera, put the card in a SD-USB reader, import and come back in 2 hours. Its not like I would have sat around for an hour watching HVD being imported, so 1 hr 2 isn't really a big deal. Nice thing is, you still have the camera to use, don't need to find/plug in the camera to its power supply, etc.
Sure you can record in SD, but why? Just record in HD and edit in 540 then export to 480 if you need to. Better to have HD if you want it later on.
BTW, you can find the HF100 right now for $599 and if you use MS Live Cash Back, you'll save an additional $76 -- $523 isn't bad!
iMovie is quick (relatively speaking); it's Voltaic which takes "forever" to convert (as the specifications state, around about twelve times clip time).
Also, the conversion takes longer (with Voltaic and with iMovie) in high-motion shots. Using a tripod, panning, and zooming only when it makes sense appear to keep AVCHD import speeds down a little.
Andrew.
1 HR AVCHD = 2 HRs encode time for you? I use a HF10 on my MBP in my sig and I get a bit faster than real time. though I use FCE 4 so i have to encode to AIC which I'm not sure if encode times are different between ProRez and AIC. BTW FCE 4 just got a update to 4.0.1 which added a TON of support for AVCHD like timeline settings for AVCHD 1080i60 making editing a breeze.
Ok- the review on camcorderinfo.com states there is no option to record in standard def - is this wrong?
Anyway, I think I am going to go with the HF100. But where do you find it for $599 plus a $76 rebate? Beach camera and buydig both have it for $599/free shipping, but no rebate. That'd totally sell me. Also, does the high-density SD require a different card-reader? I have a multi-format reader I bought 3 years ago.
Dave
I love the HF10. If you are worried about artifacts with AVCHD check out the new HF11 from Canon, which utilizes the highest bit rate of AVCHD. The drag and drop is awesome. Your mac pro will not have a problem at all handling this footage. I shoot with my HF10 at full 1080 and my macbook pro will import into the AIC codec at just about real time. The mac pro would severely cut this down. And, you have the option to review all of your footage before importing it, so you can set in and outs and import only what you want to work with, set it to go, and look at another clip and cut it up and add it to the batch.
If you are worried about backups (which you should be), buy a computer case, load it with drives and linux, set it to backup whenever. I dont know about your budget, but if you are purchasing the mac pro and FCS2, i think spending an additional 1-2000 on a backup server would not be a problem.
A word on backups, backup the original AVCHD file, as it is MUCH smaller than the final imported AIC file which FCS2 uses.
Another note to anyone using FCE4 - the latest update to this program made working with AVCHD files much easier. Less rendering and a timeline format just for avchd.
If you are worried about backups (which you should be), buy a computer case, load it with drives and linux, set it to backup whenever. I dont know about your budget, but if you are purchasing the mac pro and FCS2, i think spending an additional 1-2000 on a backup server would not be a problem.
A word on backups, backup the original AVCHD file, as it is MUCH smaller than the final imported AIC file which FCS2 uses.
Another note to anyone using FCE4 - the latest update to this program made working with AVCHD files much easier. Less rendering and a timeline format just for avchd.
Glad to see the HDV vs. AVCHD debate is still going on (seriously). Please post when you get your HF11's. Camcorderinfo reviewed it, and the difference between the screenshots of the HF10 and HF11 is to my eye less than the difference between AIC and ProRes.
HF10 vs. HF10
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Canon-Vixia-HF11-Camcorder-Review-35436/Performance.htmAIC
AIC vs. ProRes
http://digitalproducer.digitalmedianet.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=110117-0
Has AVCHD really hit it's max with the HF11? Trying to decide whether to get a HF100 and upgrade in a couple of years (and keep the flash cards), or get the HF11 and stick with it.
HF10 vs. HF10
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Canon-Vixia-HF11-Camcorder-Review-35436/Performance.htmAIC
AIC vs. ProRes
http://digitalproducer.digitalmedianet.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=110117-0
Has AVCHD really hit it's max with the HF11? Trying to decide whether to get a HF100 and upgrade in a couple of years (and keep the flash cards), or get the HF11 and stick with it.
Live.com is MS's answer to Google. "Cash Back" is just that -- cash back. You have to register, then search using Live.com. Doing so showed TigerDirect and BH at $599 with either a 12 or 15% cash back. So the camera was $599 and I have $76 coming soon
You can also use them for accessories, though the percentage may be higher with the camera. eg. the battery was 15% back with the camera, but on its own was only 2%... odd.
The comparison you've linked to appears to be "native" HDV vs. AIC, at least according to the caption.
But really, this kind of nit-picking really is a bridge too far, isn't it? Who pauses videos shot on consumer cameras, takes a still, and zooms in for a detailed pixel count? If that degree of quality concerns you, I'm not sure why you'd be the least bit interested in sub-$1000 camcorders . . .
You could spend an eternity waiting for the next best thing. What counts is how you use it, not the size of your bitrate.
Still confused about what videocam to buy; use iMovie HD
Hello, I just joined this forum and have read with interest all your exchanges on the AVCHD issue, and have done the same in Apple forums. I am no means an expert on codecs etc so I am still unsure which videocam to buy.
I am thinking of getting a Sony HDR-SR11 because:
- i got fed up keeping up with all the mini DV tapes (i would like to backup instead in my 1TB external HD)
- large HD memory 60gb (or 120GB if SR-12)
- reported good video quality, good reviews in many forums and publications
- 10MB still picture; my digital camera is Sony so I need not buy new Memory Stick Duo
But
- i dont have a HD TV (yet) nor a HD burner (which is reportedly needed to burn a HD DVD)
- i hate iMovie08 (for all the many reasons people have cited) so use iMovie HD to edit videos and am concerned about ease in editing given the SR11's AVCHD format
Queries
1) How do i import video from SR11 into iMovie HD? Is this what I have to do? SR11 --> iMovie 08 then export as __ ? format and then import that into iMovie HD? Will there be lots of degradation in video quality?
2) Can record on Sr11 using either HD or SD (standard def). If I record on SD, will it still be AVCHD and if not, will i be able to edit the video natively on iMovie HD without going thru iMovie08 nor taking ages to import?
3) Given what I've said above, what would be a good Sony alternative for me that uses hard drive (with large memory), easily importable (not too much degradation) into and edited using iMovieHD and ease of playback in Mac's DVD player
thanks much in advance
Hello, I just joined this forum and have read with interest all your exchanges on the AVCHD issue, and have done the same in Apple forums. I am no means an expert on codecs etc so I am still unsure which videocam to buy.
I am thinking of getting a Sony HDR-SR11 because:
- i got fed up keeping up with all the mini DV tapes (i would like to backup instead in my 1TB external HD)
- large HD memory 60gb (or 120GB if SR-12)
- reported good video quality, good reviews in many forums and publications
- 10MB still picture; my digital camera is Sony so I need not buy new Memory Stick Duo
But
- i dont have a HD TV (yet) nor a HD burner (which is reportedly needed to burn a HD DVD)
- i hate iMovie08 (for all the many reasons people have cited) so use iMovie HD to edit videos and am concerned about ease in editing given the SR11's AVCHD format
Queries
1) How do i import video from SR11 into iMovie HD? Is this what I have to do? SR11 --> iMovie 08 then export as __ ? format and then import that into iMovie HD? Will there be lots of degradation in video quality?
2) Can record on Sr11 using either HD or SD (standard def). If I record on SD, will it still be AVCHD and if not, will i be able to edit the video natively on iMovie HD without going thru iMovie08 nor taking ages to import?
3) Given what I've said above, what would be a good Sony alternative for me that uses hard drive (with large memory), easily importable (not too much degradation) into and edited using iMovieHD and ease of playback in Mac's DVD player
thanks much in advance
You may want to check out this post. It's for Canon, but it may be useful for your Sony too.
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/514751/
Keep in mind that Canon is the only AVCHD cam that does convincing 24P and 30P (according to camcorderinfo.com), but that Sony is known for much better image stabilization in general.
Disclaimer -- I don't do HD yet, just been reading. I'm about to purchase FCP and a Canon. Good luck (to both of us).
No viewfinder??
Do pros use a viewfinder or LCD, when hand held? For me, it's easier to steady the camera when it's locked to my eye, especially when shooting sports. Also, how can you see the LCD in bright light?
Do pros use a viewfinder or LCD, when hand held? For me, it's easier to steady the camera when it's locked to my eye, especially when shooting sports. Also, how can you see the LCD in bright light?
Do you see what eye see?
For what it's worth I own a Panasonic SD9 and have no problems with the LCD even in bright sunlight. Partly depends on the state of your eyesight, of course.
LCDs must be better than they used to be: I still use a Canon S60 compact digital stills camera on which the LCD is next to useless in bright sunlight. On the contrary, the main problem with LCDs on consumer camcorders is how cluttered they get with information.
For what it's worth I own a Panasonic SD9 and have no problems with the LCD even in bright sunlight. Partly depends on the state of your eyesight, of course.
LCDs must be better than they used to be: I still use a Canon S60 compact digital stills camera on which the LCD is next to useless in bright sunlight. On the contrary, the main problem with LCDs on consumer camcorders is how cluttered they get with information.
I guess the answer to this question now is AVCHD if you are not planning on buying Apple pro hardware. The macbook dropped firewire, and I'll bet dollars to donuts the iMacs do on their next refresh too.
Firewire is fantastic for those who use tape, but also better than USB for hard drive and target disk mode. Too bad Apple is giving up the fight.
Firewire is fantastic for those who use tape, but also better than USB for hard drive and target disk mode. Too bad Apple is giving up the fight.