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AVCHD panning shots look 'rough' and 'jaggy'

harddriveowner said:
Stop crying and use Voltaic. Convert the files to .mov and this issue goes away.
I did. I do hone Apple upgrades its software soon so that the conversion is unnecessary
Click to expand...

So AVCHD looks better when Voltaic converts it into AIC than then when FCP does it? Any idea of why this might be? Anyone else here notice a difference?

A month ago got an e-mail from Shedworx saying that "we have the capability to output to
ProRes now in the latest version, though it's still in an experimental stage" Anyone here tried the ProRes version?
 
So, I purchased Voltaic and I must say I see no difference in the quality of the conversion, my issue remains, the files look exactly the same.
So, I switched to the dark side and installed Sony's "motion Picture Browser" on my XP machine and imported the footage with no conversions taking place, i.e. .MTS files.
And, yes they look exactly the same! the issue remains. I am currently burning a disc to play on my Sony PS3. This does not involve any conversion of the files as the PS3 can play the .MTS files in their raw state.
This will prove to me once a for all that there is no issue with the iMac or ANY of the MAC software, but rather a limitation of the original .MTS files or rather a limitation on the current state of consumer grade AVCHD equipment.

I will edit this post once I have seen the results from the Motion Picture browser software.

So, I have to take it back. The quality of the AVCHD 'raw' files i.e. .MTS format is better than the Apple AIC converted files.
The footage was certainly 'steadier' and the panning issue while not vanquished altogether was so much better that it is no longer an issue.

My conclusion is, If I want to edit my footage and maintain the quality, keep it in AVCHD format, which means no more editing on the iMac until new software is made for iMovie or FCE4 to make this happen.
What drag, the last thing I want to do is start using PC stuff again !
Come on Apple, give us the ability to edit in AVCHD without converting the files.
 
GilesM said:
My conclusion is, If I want to edit my footage and maintain the quality, keep it in AVCHD format, which means no more editing on the iMac until new software is made for iMovie or FCE4 to make this happen.
Click to expand...

Do you have a quad core or greater? I have read that it takes this to edit native AVCHD footage.

You may want to try to convert AVCHD into ProRes via Voltaic. I know that Premiere Pro can handle ProRes files, as long as the ProRes codec is installed on your computer, which happens automatically when you install FCP. I assume ProRes will install itself onto your computer once you instal the version of Voltaic with ProRes and I assume this would work fine with IMovie. Let us know if you try it.

That said, if native AVCHD is not good enough for you, switch to HDV. The Sony and Canon models look especially good, with Sony offering superior image stabilization and Canon offering a slightly better picture, more adjustments, and 24 and 30P. (Camcorderinfo.com).
 
Chris7 said:
Do you have a quad core or greater? I have read that it takes this to edit native AVCHD footage.

You may want to try to convert AVCHD into ProRes via Voltaic. I know that Premiere Pro can handle ProRes files, as long as the ProRes codec is installed on your computer, which happens automatically when you install FCP. I assume ProRes will install itself onto your computer once you instal the version of Voltaic with ProRes and I assume this would work fine with IMovie. Let us know if you try it.

That said, if native AVCHD is not good enough for you, switch to HDV. The Sony and Canon models look especially good, with Sony offering superior image stabilization and Canon offering a slightly better picture, more adjustments, and 24 and 30P. (Camcorderinfo.com).
Click to expand...

You don't "need" a quad core or greater to edit native AVCHD. I just switched from FCE 4 to Premiere Pro CS4 and I've found it to be usable on my 2.4 dual core MBP. I do drop some frames at first but after a render, it plays back smoothly.

As for a solution, I really don't think that it matters if the video is transcoded of not. I think the problem is within the camera's sensor being lazy.
 
hmmm, this is all very involved ! Anyway, I tried an experiment. I took one of my effected movie clips in the .mov format and played it in QuickTime.
I chose this file specifically as the clip showed a telegraph pole panning through the shot.
I paused the playback while the pole was panning through. I saw not one pole but 3! there was a 'shadow' to either side of the image, so it looked like there were 3 poles when there was only one. When played back at full speed this is why the pole moves through the image in a 'jerky' motion.
Next I am going to apply the 'flicker' and 'de-interlace' filters in FCE 4 and see if this helps.
I can use use Pro-res as I have FCE4 and not FC pro.
 
Well I hope you guys keep this thread alive with updates on the experiments. I continue to watch this thread, as this whole "jerky" thing has kept me from dropping the coin on a new AVCHD camera. In fact, in hopes of avoiding this issue, I am thinking more along the lines of the Panasonic HMC-150 now as opposed to the Canon HF-11. Wonder if it would even make a difference.

I just wonder if this issue is camera based or workflow based. Having said that, I would be curious to see if there is any difference in "edited" footage that was converted to ProRes instead of AIC.

Anyway, keep the results coming guys.

Regards,

G.
 
So, having applied two filters in FCE 4 the image is improved.
I applied 'de-interlace' and 'flicker'.
Then I exported the file as .mp4, H.264, 25 fps, at 960X540 pixels with a data rate of 6000 KBPS.

Now, when I view the files with the PS3 set to 720p or 1080p the image is improved. Now if I pause the action the telegraph pole remains as a single object, no duplicates to the left and right.
Also, I can now read the road signs that we were passing, as opposed to the previous effort where the road signs were illegible.
I believe this is due to the image now being progressive instead of interlaced.

I changed the frame rate because I realised that the camera is capturing at 1080/50i, which is 50 interlaced frames per second, if one is to change that to progressive that becomes 25 frames per second.

All of this has improved the image, but crucially, the panning issue remains, it is less intrusive and these setting seem to minimise it, but it is still present.

The conclusions are, if your source is interlaced, set your output device to interlace also. If you are watching movies on the iMac, better 'de interlace' as the imac screen deals poorly with interlaced video.

Reducing the pixel dimensions allows you to also reduce the data throughput rate, and of course the file size.

For me a good compromise is the 960x540 size as mentioned above, which is, also the default for the output to Apple TV from iMovie 08.

So for me, the answer is either edit in iMovie 08 and output to Apple TV preset, or edit in FCE 4 and output as detailed above.
For some reason the Apple TV preset in FCE 4 is screwed up and only outputs in 4:3 dimensions, so one just has to do it manually.

As for the panning issue, well I just do not know if I am ever going to achieve 'smooth' panning.

I am starting to wonder if the issue is that my camera is just not up to the job, or if the current state of AVCHD at a consumer level is the problem.

i wonder if one took the other approach to HD i.e. switching to HDV.
I would love to test the latest HDV 1080p against the latest 1080p AVCHD to see if either resolve the issue.

Can anyone offer an informed opinion? Does this same panning issue exist in the latest 1080p AVCHD cameras? or the latest 1080p HDV cameras ?

Mine is an older model, it's the Sony HDR-SR5E. Is my camera just not 'good' enough?:confused:

So, next attempt, I took the 'raw' AVCHD files from the camera and moved them to the iMac. From There I dumped them on an external hard drive which I attached to the PS3.
This resulted in files that I could play in the PS3 as AVCHD as the PS3 can play AVCHD files.
The image is perfect, the panning issue is no longer apparent.

So, the conclusion, it is the process of importing to FCE or iMovie (i.e. transcoding to .MOV files) that introduces the issues. One can then reduce these issues but can not eradicate them.

What I need is the ability to edit and output in the original AVCHD format within iMovie or FCE. Sony Vegas software can do this, but is only available for P.C.'s not MAC's.
 
Could someone provide some examples of the 'rough' and 'jaggy' footage using vimeo or some other hosting site? Preferably, I'd love to see both unedited and edited footage. I'd like to know if the problem is as severe as it sounds or if it's just a matter of people having high expectations.

I am considering the purchase of a Canon HF100 but have many concerns after reading posts on this website and others such as avsforum. I plan on editing my video using either iMovie or purchasing FCE.

I don't like the thought of having a hi-def camera that can't pan because of artifacts. What good is a crisp picture if you can't edit the footage (without lots of hardships or many workarounds) or pan the camera? The price of the HF100 has come down considerably - makes me wonder why. Is it just a sign of the economic times? Or is it a matter of AVCHD cameras just not selling due to its technical limitations/issues? I really like the sound of recording to flash memory, but how long will it take before decent and easy to use editing software becomes available? The last thing I want to do is buy a AVCHD camera that is eventually abandoned as a viable platform or replaced by something better.

But in the meantime, I've sold my standard-def camera and my two and three year old daughters aren't going to stop growing just because I don't have a camera....
 
GilesM said:
So, the conclusion, it is the process of importing to FCE or iMovie (i.e. transcoding to .MOV files) that introduces the issues.
Click to expand...

If you are viewing your footage on your iMac screen, the problem — in part or entirely — is down to the video being interlaced and the screen being progressive, and Quicktime (which is architecturally controlling what you see in FCE or iMovie) not compensating.

I'm not saying it has nothing to do with the inter-frame compression of AVCHD, but you really can't make a judgement based on what you're seeing on iMac. I'd imagine watching it on a PS3 and TV means you are seeing interlaced footage correctly.

Shooting 25p will make your videos more juddery. You're halving the motion information you're recording.
 
footage

I panned around my office. Here are two files. pan1.mov is with IS off. pan2.mov has IS on. Each is about 80mb.

Also I included a disk image with the avchd files (1st scene is IS off).

I imported the avchd into imovie and exported to quicktime. Shot in 60i. Imported as 1080 and exported the same. I did not deinterlace. Not sure if this will help anyone but here they are:

http://raxafarian.com/hf100/
 
Let me start by saying I am a huge Apple fan. I have tried to give Apple a chance when it comes to AVCHD editing. I bought Final Cut Express and I have used iMovie. I prefer to use a mac over a PC any day. That is until I found Sony Vegas Pro.

You can get Sony Vegas Pro for $428 at amazon.com. It does need a powerhouse computer to run. The editing options are endless and the output of a AVCHD (I have a Canon HF 11) is unbelievable. It does not lose any quality and looks exactly like when you connect the camcorder directly to the TV.

I realize that it is silly to buy a PC just for Sony Vegas Pro, so just buy windows and run it on a mac. Unlike Final Cut Express, you can actually try out Sony Vegas Pro for 30 days before buying, so you can see what I mean and not waste more money on editing software.

I hope Apple gets this figured out soon and starts allowing native editing with AVCHD, so I can get back to using the much preferred Apple operating system.
 
BigSky20 said:
Let me start by saying I am a huge Apple fan. I have tried to give Apple a chance when it comes to AVCHD editing. I bought Final Cut Express and I have used iMovie. I prefer to use a mac over a PC any day. That is until I found Sony Vegas Pro.

You can get Sony Vegas Pro for $428 at amazon.com. It does need a powerhouse computer to run. The editing options are endless and the output of a AVCHD (I have a Canon HF 11) is unbelievable. It does not lose any quality and looks exactly like when you connect the camcorder directly to the TV.

I realize that it is silly to buy a PC just for Sony Vegas Pro, so just buy windows and run it on a mac. Unlike Final Cut Express, you can actually try out Sony Vegas Pro for 30 days before buying, so you can see what I mean and not waste more money on editing software.

I hope Apple gets this figured out soon and starts allowing native editing with AVCHD, so I can get back to using the much preferred Apple operating system.
Click to expand...

Ummm... You know Premiere Pro CS4 can edit AVCHD natively..... on a Mac
 
NRose8989 said:
Ummm... You know Premiere Pro CS4 can edit AVCHD natively..... on a Mac
Click to expand...

Yeah and it is $400 more. Go for the Premiere Pro CS4 if you prefer this.

I actually prefer Sony Vegas Pro over any other video editing system. You can get 3D animation for a great price. Check out some of the things you can do on youtube.com or vimeo.com. You can also use Magic Bullet Looks with Vegas Pro and you cannot (fully functional) use it with final cut express.

Yes NRose 8989, I know you can use MBL with Premiere Pro CS4. Thanks for your smart ass reply!

The important thing for AVCHD is that there are programs that work well with the AVCHD format, but they are bit expensive. I guess you get what you paid for. I also have tried Videostudio Pro X2 by ULEAD and it works great with AVCHD (about $100) but you must run windows. Unfortunately, your cheapest option to run natively on a mac is what NRose 8989 pointed out. The problem is this software is over $800 on Amazon.
 
I see that Vegas Movie Studio Platinum also offers the ability to edit AVCHD and costs £48.00 pounds or so.
Will this do the job with the same degree of success I wonder.

Considering I have a powerful PC sat here doing nothing since I purchased my iMac I might go down this route, but I am reluctant because I really wanted to do it on my iMac. However I am reluctant to take my windows XP and put it on my imac.
Part of me does not want to share my lovely iMac with anything to do with windows.
 
There is a great way to get Adobe software including Premiere Pro or Apple software for that matter at very cheap prices. Enroll in your local college and then head to the bookstore to start saving. I got Aperture and Final Cut Express for $79 each. Final Cut Studio for $499.
You can get the Adobe Creative Suite Web Premium (a $1700 package) for $399.

P.S. I do actually take classes but I had no idea the savings available until I signed up.
 
I think I will download the demo version of Sony Vegas Studio and see if it can indeed resolve the issue by working direct on the AVCHD files.

More interesting is, does anyone know how we can let Apple know that the current AIC codec for AVCHD is not satisfactory? Does anyone think we will ever get an update to any of the Final Cut suites to allow editing of AVCHD without translation to the AIC codec?

How can we pressure Apple in to giving us what we need?
 
I am not sure if Vegas Movie Studio Platinum will do the full 1080i output without transaltion from a lower resolution. I beleive you need Vegas Pro to get the full 1920 x 1080.

I could be wrong though.
 
One more thing...you can download both the Vegas movie studio platinum and Vegas pro for a free 30 day trial to see which one works.

If you are looking for a cheaper option that works great with AVCHD and outputs perfectly, look at the ULEAD Videostudio Pro X2. This software is about $100 and it has a smart proxy that outputs the AVCHD footage perfectly. The only problem I have seen is that any color correction does not output perfectly.

I hope this helps. I have been going through this same process as I bought a nice AVCHD video camera and was dissapointed at my mac options for editing. Hopefully, we will see a new release of Final Cut Express at MacWorld in January.
 
BigSky20 said:
Yeah and it is $400 more. Go for the Premiere Pro CS4 if you prefer this.

I actually prefer Sony Vegas Pro over any other video editing system. You can get 3D animation for a great price. Check out some of the things you can do on youtube.com or vimeo.com. You can also use Magic Bullet Looks with Vegas Pro and you cannot (fully functional) use it with final cut express.

Yes NRose 8989, I know you can use MBL with Premiere Pro CS4. Thanks for your smart ass reply!

The important thing for AVCHD is that there are programs that work well with the AVCHD format, but they are bit expensive. I guess you get what you paid for. I also have tried Videostudio Pro X2 by ULEAD and it works great with AVCHD (about $100) but you must run windows. Unfortunately, your cheapest option to run natively on a mac is what NRose 8989 pointed out. The problem is this software is over $800 on Amazon.
Click to expand...

Actually I got CS4 master collection for $550 from my school. Which comes with After Effects, Photoshop etc.

You can't beat that deal if your a student.
 
AVCHD issues still continue even in Sony's own software.

Having spent some time reading the Sony Vegas forums it seems that there are issues with editing AVCHD of various types that the users are having.
The issues are much more serious than the panning issue we have been discussing here, it seems that some folks are finding that Sony Vegas Software is just not allowing the render of HD formats at certain sizes. The 1920x1080 is causing all sorts of issues and if one believes the forums, it just does not work. Some of these folks have quad core PC's with up to 6GB of RAM so the power is there. Of course some of these users are using Vista, and that in itself can be problematic.

It seems these folks would be glad to have the issue I am having because at least they will get the project done!
 
So you can edit a movie using native AVCHD and it looks lovely - you've cut out the junk and now have just the footage you want. But how do you send something to Granny so that she can see her grandchilds latest escapades?

If it looks great on the camera (either on the built-in camera screen, or by connecting the camera to the TV), the data must be there, so why can't this be re-encoded to DVD?
I'm really keen to buy a cam, but I'm getting a little concerned that the footage I end up with won't be representative of the cost of the camera.

I'm really interested to know the details.
 
As it happens I have a project I have just started that has two requirements.
i have shot the footage and one part of the family needs it to be viewable on a PS3 in high def (so a .MP4 format is required) and the older generation of the same family need the footage as a standard definition DVD.

So, I will have to live with the panning issue introduced by importing to a format to be used by FCE4 or iMovie 08 .
I have the routing of importing via FCE4 then I can choose to edit in iMovie or FCE4.
Once the file is edited I can then export 2 versions, one to .MP4 and the other will be using the preset export for iDVD. The iDVD version will have chapter markers encoded.

Then all I have to do is import to iDVD and burn the disc.
Well, that is the theory anyway!

all of this is done after the import has been completed, so I am no longer working in AVCHD, but instead using the AIC codec in the .MOV wrapper.

I do hope this works....
 
It is really disappointing to hear this also happens in the Sony software. I am sure in the next couple of years we will see a new codec built in the new cameras coupled with huge storage that will cure it but it is a real bummer for us all for the time being. :(
 
scottydawg said:
It is really disappointing to hear this also happens in the Sony software. I am sure in the next couple of years we will see a new codec built in the new cameras coupled with huge storage that will cure it but it is a real bummer for us all for the time being. :(
Click to expand...

Did you try Sony Vegas Pro 8? The consumer versions will not output AVCHD natively to 1920 x 1080. You can download a free trial of Vegas Pro 8. The consumer versions "Vegas Movie Studio", "Vegas Movie Studio Platinum", and "Platinum Pro Pack" will not render AVCHD in full quality. However, Vegas Pro 8 does. I use it every day with a Canon HF 11.

Download a free 30 day trial of Vegas Pro 8 and you can see for yourself.
 
BigSky20 said:
Did you try Sony Vegas Pro 8? The consumer versions will not output AVCHD natively to 1920 x 1080. You can download a free trial of Vegas Pro 8. The consumer versions "Vegas Movie Studio", "Vegas Movie Studio Platinum", and "Platinum Pro Pack" will not render AVCHD in full quality. However, Vegas Pro 8 does. I use it every day with a Canon HF 11.

Download a free 30 day trial of Vegas Pro 8 and you can see for yourself.
Click to expand...

I haven't tried Vegas Pro yet, I am using FCE with a Sony PC100 but I just bought a Sony SR12 a few weeks ago and will be ramping up to use that for all my video work. After reading about the jaggies with all the Mac software I really want to explore options.
It looks like Vegas Pro is a Windows only application, is that correct?
 
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