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IMO, it should be simple: If you need a passport to fly there, it's international, no checked bag fee. If you don't need a passport, it's domestic, and there's a checked bag fee.

Haha, at least I'm not the only one who found this odd. :p I'm not sure if I'd need checked bags when going to Canada (although I usually drive or train to Toronto, and I usually fly to Seattle and drive across the border to Vancouver). Mexico could probably go either way, since I'm there for four nights, but I want some outdoors clothes and a bathing suit in addition to dress and business casual clothes am a clothes whore. :eek:
 
I guess if you are flying with one of those super budget airlines then it is to be expected.

But if this becomes standard for carriers such as British Airways or Virgin for their long haul that'd be outrageous.

I still think the best solution is to go back to the "early" days of aviation — and still use for commercial helicopter flights:

You and your bags get on the scale. ;)

But here is what I find so funny. The budget airlines are NOT the ones charging a fee for this stuff. It is the big boys that are doing it.
I can think of one super budget airline that charges fees for just about everything but they market themselves that way. They market themselves that you ONLY pay for what you use and they make it very clear.
Want peanuts or a drink on the play-- Pay a few bucks.
Want to check a bag -- there is a fee for that
There is no counter people to talk to all it is the self service stuff
Call for reservation stuff and talk to a human - Fee for that

But they market themselves that way and have been doing it before the fees started.

Now more on the budget airlines like southwest compared to the bigger guys like American Delta and so on that I really want the big guys to explain why is it that southwest kicks there ass on
1. Price.
2. Customer service
3. Employee happyness
4. On time arrivals.
5. And on profit. They have been well in the black almost every year including I want to say 2001. All the big guys have been well in the red almost every year from even before 2001.


Something is not adding up if Southwest is able to do all those other things better and still getting well in the black.....

Tells me that something needs to changed.

Now I will admite that Southwest planes are not as comfortable to be in as flying bigger guys for the most part. Minus flying into Lubbock because american eagle and Contental both fly those small planes into it. But still this does not explain why Southwest is able to kick all the other bigger airlines asses.
 
It's a charge shell game.
The big carriers are banking that the average American is too stupid to realize total cost of a flight is not the "lowest available fare" when booking on Expedia, Priceline, Travelocity, etc. The average Joe is going to click the lowest price rather than doing the homework to get the total price with fees for comparison.
Cost, comfort, destinations, schedules, etc. all factor in. But for most non-business travellers, it comes down to price.
 
It appears you're trying to be humorous in making your point, but I've done this exact thing and saved money. Instead of paying for an extra bag at $20 - $30 or an even higher overweight fee, I've shipped items to a destination at a cheaper price. You gotta explore all of your options. :)
I was referring to the overnight partnerships with FedEx and other couriers that many airlines offer at rates slightly lower than their 3+ bag fees. Ground shipments, of course, will almost always cost less. That's why I included "at similar speed." But yes, in some cases alternative couriers are better choices.
 
It's not quite that simple. While I'd prefer Airline 2 since they don't have terrible policies like Airline 1, it's going to come down to the time of the flights, if it's nonstop, if it's not nonstop, where is the stop at (like I avoid ORD when possible), what kind of plane it's on (I avoid regional jets if I can too), the airline's reputation for being on time and whether or not they're known for losing bags, etc. Baggage fees only make up part of the reason I choose an airline.

Of course it's not that simple, but in the "expedia" world, the vast majority of passengers are willing to sit through significant pain in the traveling process if their immediate booking price is low.

I have been fortunate to have never had to pay for luggage, and to that effect, the luggage thing has "locked" me into my preferred carrier.
 

It's only ridiculous because of how poor names are as a unique identifier. Of course the same people who decry this particular example are against national identification cards, use of SSN as an identifier at airports, or other means to fix the uniqueness problem.

That the TSA continues to pat him down is more a matter of policy. Whoever is working the checkpoint is making minimum wage and probably needs the job, so they just follow the procedure regardless of what the subject actually looks like. No surprise there.

I don't see how you can place blame anywhere. Which would you rather have, security that is tough to get through because of a naming issue, or flight 253?
 
Try this:::::
2 Family members just visited from Brazil.
Trip here went O.K. Continental. Old rules allowed 2 bags each at 70 lbs each for Brazil.
Return trip.....
Flight was to U.S., then to Montreal via Cleveland, then back to Brazil 3 weeks later. And the flight to Cleveland was cancelled after they checked in and got to the gate. Didn't speak English, flew them to Dulles (Washington D.C.) but they ended up in Chicago somehow because they had overbooked the Dulles flight, didn't have a flight to Montreal, put up in a Hotel in Chicago not knowing how to use the Food Coupons to eat (they were hungry), and flown to Montreal the next day. WOW
At the airport in Houston checking in luggage for the flight to Montreal via Cleveland. Each bag weighed over 50 lbs but less than 70 lbs.
Continental tried to charge a Service Fee of $25 each bag + $25 overweight each bag and one bag oversize fee of $100.
One passenger $200, second passenger $100.
This is for EACH leg of the trip that they will have to check baggage. And the Continental contract reps argued about the fees. Even though Continental's website says NO Service Fees for Brazil flights.
This is all after they spent their shopping money, which placed their bags overweight, and didn't have money left to pay all the fees.
What a GREAT way to welcome people to our great country. You can sure tell that this country doesn't welcome tourism.
And with all the different rate structures the airlines have. It's too bad they can't learn from Saturn. Oh, yes, and they went out of business.
It's no wonder that a lot of people HATE to deal with Airlines. There was a time when the Airlines cared. Fed you good food, no hassle on baggage, and were courteous. What happened to those days?
 
The combined weight of passengers and their luggage determines the amount of fuel the airline needs to transport this cargo from source to destination, and fuel is by far the largest variable operational cost to airlines.

With this in mind, the fairest approach (but not politically acceptable) would be to charge for combined weight. That is, you pay for your weight, just like you pay by weight to transport a package through the post office. Everyone gets on a scales together with their luggage and pays by the pound. Why should I pay the same as some obese person or someone with 2 heavy bags? Along the same lines, I would expect to pay more than a small 10-year-old or someone with less baggage.

I know someone's going to jump on the opportunity here to be "offended", but really, paying by weight is the most logical in the transportation industry.
 

How about posting this over in the linked thread in the interest of continuity. I just put the link here for anyone who would be interested in other airline news. Maybe I shouldn't have done that, but I would like to keep the threads separate to avoid confusion as they are really about two different aspects of airline travel. :)
 
The combined weight of passengers and their luggage determines the amount of fuel the airline needs to transport this cargo from source to destination, and fuel is by far the largest variable operational cost to airlines.

With this in mind, the fairest approach (but not politically acceptable) would be to charge for combined weight. That is, you pay for your weight, just like you pay by weight to transport a package through the post office. Everyone gets on a scales together with their luggage and pays by the pound. Why should I pay the same as some obese person or someone with 2 heavy bags? Along the same lines, I would expect to pay more than a small 10-year-old or someone with less baggage.

I know someone's going to jump on the opportunity here to be "offended", but really, paying by weight is the most logical in the transportation industry.

I like your logic..
Movie theaters should charge by weight for wear and tear on their seating.
Toll Roads should charge by weight for your car and passengers for wear and tear on the roadways.
We should pay auto license plate fees by the weight of our automobiles/motorcycles/suv's/pickups etc. (We probably already do in a broad category sense).
Schools should charge by weight for the amount of space your child takes up in a classroom.
Buffets should charge by weight for the food you place on your plate (I was in a country recently that does that).
After all, my Water district charges for the amount of sewage that I flush. They gage it on the amount of water I use.
The list could go on and on. It WOULD be the fair way to do things....... by your logic.......
 
I like your logic..
Movie theaters should charge by weight for wear and tear on their seating.
Toll Roads should charge by weight for your car and passengers for wear and tear on the roadways.
We should pay auto license plate fees by the weight of our automobiles/motorcycles/suv's/pickups etc. (We probably already do in a broad category sense).
Schools should charge by weight for the amount of space your child takes up in a classroom.
Buffets should charge by weight for the food you place on your plate (I was in a country recently that does that).
After all, my Water district charges for the amount of sewage that I flush. They gage it on the amount of water I use.
The list could go on and on. It WOULD be the fair way to do things....... by your logic.......


Don't forget that when you buy clothes.


S M L XL XXL - usually all the same price.
 
I like your logic..
Movie theaters should charge by weight for wear and tear on their seating.
Toll Roads should charge by weight for your car and passengers for wear and tear on the roadways.
We should pay auto license plate fees by the weight of our automobiles/motorcycles/suv's/pickups etc. (We probably already do in a broad category sense).
Schools should charge by weight for the amount of space your child takes up in a classroom.
Buffets should charge by weight for the food you place on your plate (I was in a country recently that does that).
After all, my Water district charges for the amount of sewage that I flush. They gage it on the amount of water I use.
The list could go on and on. It WOULD be the fair way to do things....... by your logic.......

Well, that's not exactly my logic. The key thing to remember is that the fuel costs are BY FAR the largest operational expense for the airlines. In contrast to that, in your examples (except for the buffet example), the weight has a far less critical impact on the operational costs compared to the far larger fixed costs. I'm not saying NO impact, just too little to bother with a weight formula. The weight/fuel impact for transportation, however, is much greater. In fact, in your toll road example, usually the fees are based on number of axles, so large, heavy big-rigs do pay more than passenger automobiles, and so this ends up being another example of real-life variable pricing.

By the way, you use the words "your logic" twice, apparently sarcastically. Do you actually think that what I'm saying would be unfair or wrong? It sounds like you are simply pointing out that most businesses don't engage in variable pricing based on variable costs (although that would be for the reason I just wrote)?
 
Don't forget that when you buy clothes.


S M L XL XXL - usually all the same price.

Yes...except that the cost of the materials for clothing is actually a small proportion of the overall cost of clothing, far outweighed (heh-heh) by design costs, transportation costs, overhead, profit, etc. If the cost of materials for clothing was proportionally (i.e. as a % of overall cost) as great as that of fuel costs are for airlines, then you absolutely would see a difference in price for the various sizes.
 
The combined weight of passengers and their luggage determines the amount of fuel the airline needs to transport this cargo from source to destination, and fuel is by far the largest variable operational cost to airlines.

With this in mind, the fairest approach (but not politically acceptable) would be to charge for combined weight. That is, you pay for your weight, just like you pay by weight to transport a package through the post office. Everyone gets on a scales together with their luggage and pays by the pound. Why should I pay the same as some obese person or someone with 2 heavy bags? Along the same lines, I would expect to pay more than a small 10-year-old or someone with less baggage.

I know someone's going to jump on the opportunity here to be "offended", but really, paying by weight is the most logical in the transportation industry.

I thoroughly agree, but would be inclined to set a baseline weight (passenger+baggage) of say, 150lbs. Anything over that and you pay extra, if less, then bully for you. Beyond a certain point, the basic costs remain the same per passenger, and also you'd save a lot of paper-pushing for children/smaller people. As an added incentive for first/business class, keep no restrictions beyond what's already in place there--most of the people flying up there are a) on business accounts, b) wealthy, or c) don't fit properly in coach seats. The first two won't really be affected, and the third shouldn't have their extra size/weight subsidized by the rest of the passengers anyways.
 
and fuel is by far the largest variable operational cost to airlines.
This is completely false in the context being discussed. The majority of the costs of baggage handling are incurred on the ground. The issue of luggage weight is typically concerned with infrastructure at airports not being able to handle abnormally heavy bags or cargo with odd shape, thus requiring additional attention.
 
This is completely false in the context being discussed. The majority of the costs of baggage handling are incurred on the ground. The issue of luggage weight is typically concerned with infrastructure at airports not being able to handle abnormally heavy bags or cargo with odd shape, thus requiring additional attention.

I wasn't talking about costs associated only with baggage handling. I was talking about overall costs involved with transporting both passengers and their luggage from source to destination.
 
I wasn't talking about costs associated only with baggage handling. I was talking about overall costs involved with transporting both passengers and their luggage from source to destination.
You were discussing the matter of charging for combined weight, when in reality the weight of a passenger/luggage load is minimal to costs of handling the flight compared to the weight of the aircraft and cargo loads (on widebody routes). Passenger and baggage weight are not considered when fueling an aircraft; a full load is always assumed and kerosene is added based on distance, weather and winds, not the quantity fat people in the back.
 
I thoroughly agree, but would be inclined to set a baseline weight (passenger+baggage) of say, 150lbs. Anything over that and you pay extra, if less, then bully for you. Beyond a certain point, the basic costs remain the same per passenger, and also you'd save a lot of paper-pushing for children/smaller people. As an added incentive for first/business class, keep no restrictions beyond what's already in place there--most of the people flying up there are a) on business accounts, b) wealthy, or c) don't fit properly in coach seats. The first two won't really be affected, and the third shouldn't have their extra size/weight subsidized by the rest of the passengers anyways.

Yes, I agree completely with having a baseline weight, since each passenger regardless of weight takes one of a fixed, limited number of seats. You're right that the fixed costs essentially would require that a baseline be used with this kind of variable pricing.
 
You were discussing the matter of charging for combined weight, when in reality the weight of a passenger/luggage load is minimal to costs of handling the flight compared to the weight of the aircraft and cargo loads (on widebody routes). Passenger and baggage weight are not considered when fueling an aircraft; a full load is always assumed and kerosene is added based on weather and winds, not the quantity fat people in the back.

First, the cargo you mention is also priced by weight.

Second, a full load may be assumed, but the fuel actually used will depend on the overall weight. The extra fuel not used doesn't just disappear at the end of the flight.
 
First, the cargo you mention is also priced by weight.
And those loads are accounted for in fuel loads and accounting.

Second, a full load may be assumed, but the fuel actually used will depend on the overall weight (including the obese Americans and the overweight/extra luggage).
Sure, it burns more fuel. But the increase in amount used is so small that it doesn't matter. Adding, say 500kg for an abnormally high number of obese passengers, to an A319 is less than 1% of a difference and fuel burn will thus probably not be affected by even half of a percent. It isn't accounted for and trying to do so would be inefficient.

The extra fuel not used doesn't just disappear at the end of the flight.
It does to the accountants. This "extra fuel" from weight issues exists in such low quantity that it's irrelevant.
 
And those loads are accounted for in fuel loads and accounting.

I don't think we're in disagreement here.

Sure, it burns more fuel. But the increase in amount used is so small that it doesn't matter. Adding, say 500kg for an abnormally high number of obese passengers, to an A319 is less than 1% of a difference and fuel burn will thus probably not be affected by even half of a percent. It isn't accounted for and trying to do so would be inefficient.

I concede that I exaggerated the proportion of fuel used for passengers and their luggage, but it's still not trivial. I have seen analyses and "complaints" from airline executives that the aggregate effect of Americans' increasing obesity does have some impact on profitability of airlines. If so, it would be "fair" to charge for weight. Whether the airlines would choose to do this (based on efficiency or political correctness or any other consideration) is obviously their decision.

However, your 500kg example would not come even close to covering the difference in weight between a plane load of 1950's Americans and a plane load of today's Americans.

It does to the accountants. This "extra fuel" from weight issues exists in such low quantity that it's irrelevant.

Sure, maybe it's insignificant for each flight, but it adds up when you're talking about 50,000 flights operated by an airline in a year.
 
However, your 500kg example would not come even close to covering the difference in weight between a plane load of 1950's Americans and a plane load of today's Americans.
The airline industry of 1950 was much less dynamic than it is now; today, planes are more efficient, have much increased MTOW, etc. The figures of average passenger+baggage weight are recalculated on a relatively frequent basis and implemented into the fare system, anyway. With modern, lighter planes, the total weight divided by number of passengers is, I am sure, far less. Add in cargo revenue, and it's a nonissue. 1950 came and went. Now is now and that's where the focus need be.

Sure, maybe it's insignificant for each flight, but it adds up when you're talking about 50,000 flights operated by an airline in a year.
Collecting the data from each flight for accounting purposes, overhauling the system to a weight-based fare structure, adding necessary infrastructure and staffing to enforce such a policy, et al, would far outweigh the additional revenue. The resources would be better spent/invested in other ways.
 
The airline industry of 1950 was much less dynamic than it is now; today, planes are more efficient, have much increased MTOW, etc. The figures of average passenger+baggage weight are recalculated on a relatively frequent basis and implemented into the fare system, anyway.

I should have clarified: I mentioned 1950 only because Americans on average weighed much closer to a normal/healthy weight back then. I didn't mean to compare the industry in any way.

With modern, lighter planes, the total weight divided by number of passengers is, I am sure, far less.

Hmm, actually this tidbit would actually support my argument because you're essentially saying that with modern planes, the proportion of passenger weight to the lighter fixed weight of the aircraft is greater.

Add in cargo revenue, and it's a nonissue.

You're basically suggesting that cargo subsidizes passengers. Maybe it does, but that gets back to the "fairness" argument (why does cargo cost more to transport just because people are getting larger), although that is certainly at the airlines' own discretion.

Collecting the data from each flight for accounting purposes, overhauling the system to a weight-based fare structure, and adding necessary infrastructure and staffing to enforce such a policy would far outweigh the additional revenue. The resources would be better spent/invested in other ways.

You may very well be right about this. My main point was about the fairness principle, since someone is most definitely paying for that (real) extra fuel to transport thousands of kilograms of extra fat and baggage on each flight...
 
Hmm, actually this tidbit would actually support my argument because you're essentially saying that with modern planes, the proportion of passenger weight to the lighter fixed weight of the aircraft is greater.
I am simply saying that the weight of the plane per passenger is less today than say, fifty years ago. Indeed, an added pound today is more significant in marginal percentage than it would have been in 1950, but it's added cost is less significant.

You're basically suggesting that cargo subsidizes passengers. Maybe it does, but that gets back to the "fairness" argument (why does cargo cost more to transport just because people are getting larger), although that is certainly at the airlines' own discretion.
They are completely different markets and are charged in different ways. It is in a way subsidizing passenger costs; airlines could simply raise ticket prices and forgo cargo to lower the amounts of needed fuel. Cargo doesn't cost more to transport due to increasing human weight. Human weight is billed to human airfare, cargo weight is billed to the shippers.

You may very well be right about this. My main point was about the fairness principle, since someone is most definitely paying for that (real) extra fuel to transport thousands of kilograms of extra fat and baggage on each flight...
As mentioned earlier in this thread, it is indeed being paid for by someone else; that someone else paid for a more expensive, less restrictive ticket.

You have to consider that for every flight operating one, two, three standard deviations above the calculated mean weight, there's another operating at the same level below the average. Yeah, some flights have many obese passengers. Others will have few or none at all. Projected fuel-burn amounts (and consequently fares) are adjusted to this average, so in the long run they cancel one another out in accounting and fare pricing terms.
 
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