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You, of course, have the copy of Bonds' failed drug test to prove this, right?

The truth is that Barry has failed no test that we know of, and he hasn't admitted to the use of any illegal substance. Nor, unlike Sosa and others, has he ever been disciplined or caught cheating in anyway. There are rules in baseball and if you get caught breaking them there are rules for how you are disciplined. Check back with me if and when Bonds is actually caught breaking the rules.

Why would bonds admit to doing steroids? I doubt he's stupid enough to do that.
Even McGuire has still never admitted to using steroids, but it's pretty obvious.
It is my opinion (and the opinion of many others ;)) that barry bonds took HGH or steroids to get where he is now, i don't care if he didn't fail any tests, how could he have hit so many HR without cheating?
 
there's no way to test for HGH, Seyhey, but looking at what he did, nobody can hit 73 HR in a season without some insane aides. I believe he took steroids or HGH just looking at the pictures.

I seriously doubt he was on a strict exercise regimen to get these kind of results

Where are your pictures of how big everyone else got and didn't hit 73 HR?

And where are the pictures of how big the pitchers who served up those 73 dingers got?

Roger Clemens in 1984:

1144166991_0860.jpg



Roger Clemens sometime later:

Clemens-8x10Yanks-01.jpg
 
He just looks fatter to me :D
I don't know if clemens took steroids, but if he did, i would lose all respect for him, as i have done with bonds (although there was never much respect there anyways :D)
 
It is my opinion (and the opinion of many others ;)) that barry bonds took HGH or steroids to get where he is now, i don't care if he didn't fail any tests, how could he have hit so many HR without cheating?

Roger Maris went from hitting 39 HR in 1960 to hitting 61 in 1961.

He never hit more than 33 HR in a season after that.

Was he on steroids too?

Babe Ruth went from 29 HR in 1919 to 54 in 1920 -- must have been steroids.

George Foster went from 29 HR in 1976 to 52 HR in 1977. That also must have been steroids.

Andrew Dawson went from 20 HR in 1986 to 49 HR in 1987. That is clearly steroids as well.

I could go on and on...your point has no merit to it.

Even when Bonds was that skinny player pictured above, he was still hitting 30+ jacks a year and was considered the best all around player in the game.
 
Why would bonds admit to doing steroids? I doubt he's stupid enough to do that.
Even McGuire has still never admitted to using steroids, but it's pretty obvious.
It is my opinion (and the opinion of many others ;)) that barry bonds took HGH or steroids to get where he is now, i don't care if he didn't fail any tests, how could he have hit so many HR without cheating?

If you followed Bonds career you would know that he is one of the hardest working players in sports. His exercise regime is legendary. His talent is as well. Combined it is not hard to see how he can equal the homerun totals of other mortal human beings (aka Ruth, Aaron, Mays, etc.) Now, Bonds may have taken steroids to help him do his workouts, but until you prove that or he admits it then his records and and accomplishments stand.

Btw, you can post a picture of anyone when they are young and contrast it with when they are older and you will note changes in body type. Look at Aaron when he played in Milwaukee and Aaron when he played in Atlanta and I think you will notice a "thickening" of his body as the years go by. Mays was the same. It proves nothing.
 
Point taken, but it is still my belief that he took steroids, 73 HR in a season is just insane. do you attribute that to his exercise regimen as well?
I don't doubt that his records will stay in the book, I just believe that he cheated to get where he is- and nobody will ever prove it- bonds will never admit to it, and you can't test for HGH; but i still refuse to personally acknowledge any of his records
 
Point taken, but it is still my belief that he took steroids, 73 HR in a season is just insane. do you attribute that to his exercise regimen as well?
I don't doubt that his records will stay in the book, I just believe that he cheated to get where he is- and nobody will ever prove it- bonds will never admit to it, and you can't test for HGH; but i still refuse to personally acknowledge any of his records

You may well be right, and if the question is do you have a right to your belief then we have no argument. I just get a little miffed when some state Bonds use of steroids or HGH as a proven fact, and blame the use of steroids in baseball on him. It gets ridiculous.
 
Uh, no.


And it doesn't matter if A-Rod breaks it not long after Barry, Ryan Howard's going to do it himself not much after that.

Precisely my point you're making for me.

Records and achievements can fluctuate without it being due to steroids.

Well done picking that out.

Many believe that in the 1990s the ball was a harder Ball.

Ryan Howard will never do it (although I love his skill). He simply spent too long in the minors stuck behind Thome.
 
Maybe. They have to stay healthy and have long careers, which are hardly given things in baseball.

Griffey Jr. is a perfect example. When he was with Seattle,everybody had huge expectations for him,number's wise. Who knows what would have happened if he'd been healthy his whole career...
 
Taken from my local newspaper today:

'MIDGET' HITS BONDS:

A day after Barry Bonds called him a "little midget man who knows [nothing] about baseball," broadcaster Bob Costas said he wasn't upset with the Giants' slugger, and responded with a jab of his own.

"As anyone can plainly see, I'm 5-61/2 and a strapping 150, and unlike some people, I came by all of it naturally," Costas said yesterday in a telephone interview.

Told before yesterday's series finale against Atlanta that Costas claimed he came by his physique naturally, Bonds responded, "How do you know?"

*******

I thought Costas comment was sort of amusing, but Barry's response was just fabulous.

Short, pithy, ironic...good stuff.
 
Taken from my local newspaper today:

'MIDGET' HITS BONDS:

A day after Barry Bonds called him a "little midget man who knows [nothing] about baseball," broadcaster Bob Costas said he wasn't upset with the Giants' slugger, and responded with a jab of his own.

"As anyone can plainly see, I'm 5-61/2 and a strapping 150, and unlike some people, I came by all of it naturally," Costas said yesterday in a telephone interview.

Told before yesterday's series finale against Atlanta that Costas claimed he came by his physique naturally, Bonds responded, "How do you know?"

*******

I thought Costas comment was sort of amusing, but Barry's response was just fabulous.

Short, pithy, ironic...good stuff.
I hadn't heard of Bonds' retort. That is good. I liked Costas' quote was nice as well. :)
 
Bonds is usually his own worst enemy when he opens his mouth. He's an intelligent guy, that much is obvious, but he can get wrapped up in his emotions and not think things through before speaking, which explains his often contradictory statements. That quip back at Costas was pretty priceless, though.

As a lifelong Giants fan and someone who has watched Barry Bonds play since his high school days, I think most casual observers just don't have enough data points to judge his physical development. Don't know how many of you were old enough to see Bobby Bonds play, but if I were to pick one ballplayer from the past 50 years as the ultimate baseball player physically, it would be Bobby Bonds Sr. The guy was built like the proverbial brickhouse, and he didn't even have to work at it! Quite the contrary: he was squandering his "next Willie Mays" physical gifts on drink, drugs, and cigarettes, which drove him out of the game prematurely in 1982. Barry was very close to his dad and saw firsthand both the waste of his talent and the excoriation he regularly got from the media (and some may even recall that his Godfather, Willie Mays, was not exactly a media darling during his playing days, either). Both of those factors are IMO his driving motivations even today.

Barry was no string-bean back in high school. He was already a man amongst boys. He slowly but surely filled out over his major league career, but I recall seeing a Giants game early in 1996 or so and really noticing a dramatic change in his physique then. It was kind of surreal seeing the guns on him at that point.

In 1998, Joe Carter had a brief cup of coffee with the Giants at the tail end of his career. Giants fans roundly derided the acquisition of such an obviously washed-up player, but he did have a significant impact on the Giants franchise. Why? He introduced Bonds to Canadian Maple bats.

In 1998-2000, Bonds' swing and overall approach at the plate was changing. The swing was lengthening a bit and developing more of an uppercut and he swapped out the old toothpick for the big maple bat, but he was still working out his new approach (and was injured for much of 1999). It all came together in 2001.

Harken back to Bonds' approach at the plate from the late 80s through the mid 90s. He used one of the smallest, lightest bats in the game, and he choked-up on the thing! He had an extremely compact, lightning quick, level swing, and he was primarily a line drive hitter, many of which were scalded enough to get over the fence. Sure, he would still hit a consistent 35-45 HR in a season, but his approach through those years sacrificed a lot of power. If he'd used a bigger bat and had more of an uppercut swing like he has the past 7-8 years, he'd be well over 800 HR by now.

Honestly, I've been worn down by the steady drumbeat against Bonds and wouldn't really be too surprised if he did cheat. But I still think the figures in the case against him don't add up -- indictments for perjury and/or tax evasion would change my mind in a heartbeat, but perjury seems like it will be too tough to prove and Kimberly Bell's credibility seems to be shrinking with every passing day, but the door is still open.

I think columnist Bruce Jenkins, who positively loathes Bonds, got it right in a column from this week: if nothing becomes of these investigations, the "taint" around Bonds will fade away and he will be universally recognized as one of the two or three greatest players ever.
 
Bonds is usually his own worst enemy when he opens his mouth. He's an intelligent guy, that much is obvious, but he can get wrapped up in his emotions and not think things through before speaking, which explains his often contradictory statements. That quip back at Costas was pretty priceless, though.

As a lifelong Giants fan and someone who has watched Barry Bonds play since his high school days, I think most casual observers just don't have enough data points to judge his physical development. Don't know how many of you were old enough to see Bobby Bonds play, but if I were to pick one ballplayer from the past 50 years as the ultimate baseball player physically, it would be Bobby Bonds Sr. The guy was built like the proverbial brickhouse, and he didn't even have to work at it! Quite the contrary: he was squandering his "next Willie Mays" physical gifts on drink, drugs, and cigarettes, which drove him out of the game prematurely in 1982. Barry was very close to his dad and saw firsthand both the waste of his talent and the excoriation he regularly got from the media (and some may even recall that his Godfather, Willie Mays, was not exactly a media darling during his playing days, either). Both of those factors are IMO his driving motivations even today.

Barry was no string-bean back in high school. He was already a man amongst boys. He slowly but surely filled out over his major league career, but I recall seeing a Giants game early in 1996 or so and really noticing a dramatic change in his physique then. It was kind of surreal seeing the guns on him at that point.

In 1998, Joe Carter had a brief cup of coffee with the Giants at the tail end of his career. Giants fans roundly derided the acquisition of such an obviously washed-up player, but he did have a significant impact on the Giants franchise. Why? He introduced Bonds to Canadian Maple bats.

In 1998-2000, Bonds' swing and overall approach at the plate was changing. The swing was lengthening a bit and developing more of an uppercut and he swapped out the old toothpick for the big maple bat, but he was still working out his new approach (and was injured for much of 1999). It all came together in 2001.

Harken back to Bonds' approach at the plate from the late 80s through the mid 90s. He used one of the smallest, lightest bats in the game, and he choked-up on the thing! He had an extremely compact, lightning quick, level swing, and he was primarily a line drive hitter, many of which were scalded enough to get over the fence. Sure, he would still hit a consistent 35-45 HR in a season, but his approach through those years sacrificed a lot of power. If he'd used a bigger bat and had more of an uppercut swing like he has the past 7-8 years, he'd be well over 800 HR by now.

Honestly, I've been worn down by the steady drumbeat against Bonds and wouldn't really be too surprised if he did cheat. But I still think the figures in the case against him don't add up -- indictments for perjury and/or tax evasion would change my mind in a heartbeat, but perjury seems like it will be too tough to prove and Kimberly Bell's credibility seems to be shrinking with every passing day, but the door is still open.

I think columnist Bruce Jenkins, who positively loathes Bonds, got it right in a column from this week: if nothing becomes of these investigations, the "taint" around Bonds will fade away and he will be universally recognized as one of the two or three greatest players ever.

Thank you for that excellent post. I really feel we should give Bonds credit. He is an amazing ball player and always has been. I, for one, enjoy assuming the best about people until I am proven wrong. Since I have no knowledge of his steroid use, I will just assume he has been clean.
 
I don't need him to be clean to appreciate what he did.

I played baseball til college. And while I was never scouted or anything, I was one of the better players and made all-conference in high school and stuff -- nothing amazing there, but my point is that having played, I can completely respect how amazing his skill is. Steroids may enhance it, but it's not going to create it from nothing.

And his ability to control the strike zone is perhaps one of the most impressive displays of skill ever seen in baseball.
 
Thank you for that excellent post. I really feel we should give Bonds credit. He is an amazing ball player and always has been. I, for one, enjoy assuming the best about people until I am proven wrong. Since I have no knowledge of his steroid use, I will just assume he has been clean.

Perhaps. But what of this:

Percent change in Barry Bonds' shoe size since 1994: +24%

(Source: Harper's Index, but I'm relying on a post at DailyKos)

His shoe size grew by 24% after the age of 30? Kind of creepy if you ask me....
 
Perhaps. But what of this:

Percent change in Barry Bonds' shoe size since 1994: +24%

(Source: Harper's Index, but I'm relying on a post at DailyKos)

Did any of those players you mentioned have their shoe size grow by 24% after the age of 30? Kind of creepy if you ask me....

Dunno, why don't we find out so we actually have an accurate data set to compare to rather than speculating.

Of course the information of his going up in shoe size is the product of leaked grand jury testimony, so I'm not inclined to believe it anyway, although I don't discount it either.

If you want a nice read on some of the issues, try this op-ed piece by George F. Will: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18629617/site/newsweek/
 
Babe Ruth *

* Only played in segregated league.

The whole * thing is so stupid. There's a million things then that "don't count" depending solely on the criteria you choose to evaluate it by.
 
Taken from my local newspaper today:

'MIDGET' HITS BONDS:

A day after Barry Bonds called him a "little midget man who knows [nothing] about baseball," broadcaster Bob Costas said he wasn't upset with the Giants' slugger, and responded with a jab of his own.

"As anyone can plainly see, I'm 5-61/2 and a strapping 150, and unlike some people, I came by all of it naturally," Costas said yesterday in a telephone interview.

Told before yesterday's series finale against Atlanta that Costas claimed he came by his physique naturally, Bonds responded, "How do you know?
:p I love it. I'd seen Bonds original, idiotic remark about Costas, and that was funny enough. Bob Costas knows nothing about baseball? :rolleyes:

I hadn't seen Costas' rejoinder, nor Bonds' even more idiotic reply to that, so thanks for those.

imac/cheese claims Bonds is a pretty intelligent guy, but you couldn't prove it by that set of quotes.
 
imac/cheese claims Bonds is a pretty intelligent guy, but you couldn't prove it by that set of quotes.

I wrote that. Please learn to decipher attributions correctly before responding to posts.

And for the record, intelligence and eloquence are not always direct indicators of one another. I said Bonds was an intelligent person, not someone who would be confused with Oscar Wilde.

(Does Wilde get a * next to his writing for all the absinthe consumption?)
 
A must read for everyone interested in the "case" against Barry.

The Myths of 756: Barry Bonds’ Predictable Power Progression

This essay basically makes the argument that Bonds could have done it without the help of steroids (and that's certainly possible), therefore there's no proof that he did. And they're right that his production hasn't dropped off dramatically since steroid testing began, but he allegedly was using designer steroids that could fool the testing of the time anyway. And while players do indeed have natural power progressions in their careers, I can't think of any others who had their best seasons after age 35, which was around the same time that he is accused of starting to use PEDs.

As far as I know, Bonds and his lawyers haven't challenged anything the book says in any way. If he has always been clean then why wouldn't he take legal action against them? If this article is correct, then he has a pretty solid slander case.

There's no proof that he knowingly and repeatedly used steroids or any other PED, only his apparent admission to having unknowingly used them. There's a lot of circumstantial evidence that probably won't stick in a court of law, but it's enough for the court of public opinion, for better or worse.
 
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