Barry Bonds* (Steroids)

[IJ Reilly]

I've been watching baseball games for over 40 years, so I think I know a lack of class in a ballplayer when I see it. Whenever a player behaves in a petulant manner, whether it's a player on my team or another, I feel the same way about it. This is why I'm happy the Dodgers traded Milton Bradley. A talented individual, a potential impact player, but so far in his career he's never learned to just shut up and play the game, and much of what he says is peevish. He's got a chip on his shoulder roughly the size of a mature Sequoia. I said it then, and I say it now: no class. Goodbye, good riddance.

So no, it's not bias, it's consistency.

 

[Sayhey]

I think the same thing every time you say Bonds is being judged unfairly.

LOL. My friend, I'm sooo out numbered in this thread it's pathetic. I raise questions about the prosecution of Barry or the many outrageous statements that would make him into evil incarnate and I'M the the one who is out of line?

 

[Sayhey]

I've been watching baseball games for over 40 years, so I think I know a lack of class in a ballplayer when I see it. Whenever a player behaves in a petulant manner, whether it's a player on my team or another, I feel the same way about it. This is why I'm happy the Dodgers traded Milton Bradley. A talented individual, a potential impact player, but so far in his career he's never learned to just shut up and play the game, and much of what he says is peevish. He's got a chip on his shoulder roughly the size of a mature Sequoia. I said it then, and I say it now: no class. Goodbye, good riddance.

So no, it's not bias, it's consistency.

You will have to do better than your story about throwing an arm protector to the on-deck circle to show it, IJ. I've seen many players with no class over the years. Jose Mesa throwing at Omar Vizquel when ever he gets the chance comes to mind as a very recent example. Refusing to take the field because you refuse to play left field (Soriano) is also a good example. Jeff Kent yelling at teammates in the dugout because he didn't get an rbi is another example. Jeffery Leonard doing his "one flap down" home run trot to express his disdain for the opposing pitcher qualifies. I could go on and on, but getting frustrated because you are being walked at a rated never before seen in baseball history and throwing an arm protector to your own on-deck circle somehow doesn't quite measure up in the low-class contest.

 

[MacNut]

You will have to do better than your story about throwing an arm protector to the on-deck circle to show it, IJ. I've seen many players with no class over the years. Jose Mesa throwing at Omar Vizquel when ever he gets the chance comes to mind as a very recent example. Refusing to take the field because you refuse to play left field (Soriano) is also a good example. Jeff Kent yelling at teammates in the dugout because he didn't get an rbi is another example. Jeffery Leonard doing his "one flap down" home run trot to express his disdain for the opposing pitcher qualifies. I could go on and on, but getting frustrated because you are being walked at a rated never before seen in baseball history and throwing an arm protector to your own on-deck circle somehow doesn't quite measure up in the low-class contest.

Yes but have those players been caught or suspected of using steroids? That is the difference, while Sorriano might be a pain in the butt I think he cares about the game and is not in it for the fame or ESPN cameras filming him for a reality show. The fact is that the only thing Barry Bonds cares about is the home run record and not the good of the game but the good of his ego.

 

[IJ Reilly]

But it isn't a contest. Sure, you could cite any number of examples of bad sportsmanship, but this fan is not going to like any of them any better for not being alone.

As far as the incident I mention goes, I don't mean to make a federal case of it, but I've seen lots of guys walked intentionally, and I've never seen anyone respond this way. It was the obvious call. Bonds had to know long before he even got to the box that anybody who could swing a bat was going to get a pass.

 

[Sayhey]

But it isn't a contest. Sure, you could cite any number of examples of bad sportsmanship, but this fan is not going to like any of them any better for not being alone.

As far as the incident I mention goes, I don't mean to make a federal case of it, but I've seen lots of guys walked intentionally, and I've never seen anyone respond this way. It was the obvious call. Bonds had to know long before he even got to the box that anybody who could swing a bat was going to get a pass.

Sorry, I thought you were making it out to be more than that. I don't know because I wasn't at the game you mention, but I think this is small potatoes compared to a lot of what I see going on in today's game. What Bonds does do that still infuriates me, and I blame Reggie Jackson for starting this trend, is to stand and watch from homeplate a ball he thinks is going out. Most players today do this, but it irritates the heck out of me. Run, god damn it, until it goes over and then go into a respectful trot. I've seen too many times when a triple is turned into a double or a double into a single because of this behavior. But then I admit to being very "old school" in this regard.

 

[Sayhey]

Yes but have those players been caught or suspected of using steroids? That is the difference, while Sorriano might be a pain in the butt I think he cares about the game and is not in it for the fame or ESPN cameras filming him for a reality show. The fact is that the only thing Barry Bonds cares about is the home run record and not the good of the game but the good of his ego.

MacNut, lots of players are suspected of using steroids, Barry included, but none of the ones I mentioned, again - including Barry, have been caught doing so. That wasn't the point of the discussion, however.

You should really check out the meaning of the word "fact" as none of the things you assume about Barry are, in fact, fact. You have every right to root against him, but don't expect me, or many others, to accept your opinion as fact.

 

[MacNut]

You should really check out the meaning of the word "fact" as none of the things you assume about Barry are, in fact, fact. You have every right to root against him, but don't expect me, or many others, to accept your opinion as fact.

Well fact or fiction Barry is either directly or indirectly involved with people who were apart of the roid scandal and it is odd that his HRs go a lot farther then most.

 

[Sayhey]

Well fact or fiction Barry is either directly or indirectly involved with people who were apart of the roid scandal and it is odd that his HRs go a lot farther then most.

I think you conflate the problem of steroids in baseball with BALCO. Bonds does, indeed, have a connection to people who have been convicted of distributing illegal steroids. I don't fault you if you want to hold that against him in deciding whether to believe he did or did not use himself. Where I think you go wrong, MacNut, is that you seem to assume that makes him guilty and that Barry therefore is the problem personified of steroids in the major leagues (I'll leave out for the moment that you don't seem to hold Sheffield and Giambi - or anyone else to the same standard.)

What I've been trying to say in this thread is that the problem is much more widespread than any one person and that everyone should be held to the same standard. In other words, discipline the players who fail their tests and don't make a scapegoat out of anyone. I've also suggested some ways to go further than the current contract allows (suspension of teams from post-season play, fines for owners, etc.) that I think can eliminate steroid abuse in the sport. I just get upset at lynch mobs, even if the person did the crime. I strongly believe most of the bitterness towards Barry stems from his chase of Ruth and Aaron and his long battles with the press. Neither are good reasons to go beyond the contract and single him out.

 

[MacNut]

I agree that this issue was and is bigger then Bonds but he has become the poster boy of the problem. Bonds is the biggest player with out of this world numbers so I think some suspicion has to be thrown his way. If Jason Giambi or Mark Mcguire were associated with BALCO and 4 away from Babe Ruth and Bonds had a measly 450 HR's then he would not be the center of attention IMO.

 

[MacNut]

in a related story...

espn
NEW YORK -- Barry Bonds will have to wait until he passes Hank Aaron before baseball throws a party for him.

Major League Baseball is not planning any celebration for Bonds if and when he tops Babe Ruth's mark of 714 home runs, commissioner Bud Selig said Thursday.

"Hank Aaron broke Babe Ruth's record," Selig said. "We don't celebrate anybody the second or third time in."

 

[Sayhey]

I agree that this issue was and is bigger then Bonds but he has become the poster boy of the problem. Bonds is the biggest player with out of this world numbers so I think some suspicion has to be thrown his way. If Jason Giambi or Mark Mcguire were associated with BALCO and 4 away from Babe Ruth and Bonds had a measly 450 HR's then he would not be the center of attention IMO.

Well, the BALCO connection should give people pause as they consider Bonds' efforts, but the problem is that when McGwire and Sosa had out of this world numbers while they were approaching Maris' mark, AND one of them admitted to using a PED banned in other sports AND any one with half a brain knew they were both likely steroid users, none - I repeat - none of this happened. In fact, the whole Baseball world closed their eyes and celebrated like it was the greatest thing to happen in half a century of baseball history. With that as the immediate past, it is hard not to conclude that Bonds is being singled out for a special scorn others would not get in his place.

 

[jefhatfield]

I've been watching baseball games for over 40 years, so I think I know a lack of class in a ballplayer when I see it.

i agree

reggie jackson, and especially yankees and a's coach billy martin were the epitomy of prima donnas

i will never forget the image of billy martin kicking dirt at the umpire

 

[aloofman]

Most players today do this, but it irritates the heck out of me. Run, god damn it, until it goes over and then go into a respectful trot. I've seen too many times when a triple is turned into a double or a double into a single because of this behavior. But then I admit to being very "old school" in this regard.

I agree. You see a lot of players waltz into second after hitting a ball down the line or into the gap, or not bother to run out ground balls. On a one-off basis, I can see the logic of slowing up and not risking injury on a play in which hustle probably won't pay off, but in the long run, you're giving away bases and runs by doing so. AND it makes you look lazy while making a fortune playing a game most people would love to play for a living.

I'm not a Yankee fan by any means, and I think Jeter is one of the most overrated players out there. But he really stands out as a guy who hustles, especially when a big play is needed.

 

[aloofman]

LOL. My friend, I'm sooo out numbered in this thread it's pathetic. I raise questions about the prosecution of Barry or the many outrageous statements that would make him into evil incarnate and I'M the the one who is out of line?

I didn't say you were out of line. I'm saying that defending him every single time has diminishing returns. At some point you start to sound like an apologist. I was only riffing on your "doth protest too much" line.

 

[MacNut]

espn

NEW YORK -- Mets minor-league pitcher Yusaku Iriki was suspended for 50 games Friday after testing positive for a performance-enhancing substance, making him the first player to be penalized under Major League Baseball's toughened steroid rules.

 

[MacNut]

Bonds Refuses to Sign Ball for Lucky Fan
Air Force Serviceman Catches Slugger's 713th Blast
By DAN GELSTON, AP Sports

PHILADELPHIA (May 7) - Carlos Oliveras has a home run ball specially marked to assure authenticity.

It just doesn't have Barry Bonds' autograph as the slugger refused to sign the ball.

The 25-year-old Air Force serviceman bought his lucky ticket because he wanted to see Bonds chase Babe Ruth on the career home run list. Oliveras had little idea he'd be the one being chased - by fans, by media - after snagging career home run No. 713.

When the San Francisco Giants' slugger hit a mammoth shot in the sixth inning off Philadelphia right-hander Jon Lieber to put him one behind the Babe on Sunday night, the ball bounced around Section 202 and into Oliveras' hands.

"I never thought I was going to be lucky like that," Oliveras said.

This was the first game of the three-game series Oliveras and a friend attended. He bought the ticket two days ago because he's a Bonds fans and wanted to see a slice of history. Then he was part of it.

"Everybody was looking on the floor," Oliveras said. "The ball bounced to me. I grabbed the ball and I stuck it between my legs. Everyone was still looking around."

Oliveras, a native of Puerto Rico, said no one immediately tried to snag the ball because he had it hidden. When the media and Phillies security discovered he caught the ball, other Phillies fans - many who spent the series jeering the sullen slugger - started yelling for him to throw the ball back.

"It made me nervous," he said.

Oliveras, an Airman 1st Class who lives on McGuire Air Force Base in Fort Dix, N.J., paid $20 for his seat in Section 202, Row 7, Seat 24.

He said he is a Bonds fan and would probably keep the ball. He hoped it would have Bonds' signature.

Bonds said no when he was asked at his news conference if he would sign the ball if a fan wanted an autograph. Moments later, when an official asked if there were any more questions, Oliveras piped up:

"Will you sign my ball?"

Bonds smirked and said nothing.

After his news conference, Bonds shook Oliveras' hand and took a picture with him.

"I'm happy because I got a picture and he shook my hand," he said.

There was one signature needed though. Oliveras had to sign a waiver for Bonds' reality show.

 

[iPhil]

He said he is a Bonds fan and would probably keep the ball. He hoped it would have Bonds' signature.

Bonds said no when he was asked at his news conference if he would sign the ball if a fan wanted an autograph. Moments later, when an official asked if there were any more questions, Oliveras piped up:

"Will you sign my ball?"

Bonds smirked and said nothing.

After his news conference, Bonds shook Oliveras' hand and took a picture with him.

"I'm happy because I got a picture and he shook my hand," he said.

There was one signature needed though. Oliveras had to sign a waiver for Bonds' reality show.

Bonds needs to come out of the weirdo closet.. if i had caught the 713th bonds ball and was asked to sign a waiver for his show i'd do what bonds did do me when i asked him to sign the ball..

 

[MacNut]

Grimsley reportedly admitted to illicit drug use

espn.com
Arizona Diamondbacks pitcher Jason Grimsley told federal investigators he used illegal performance-enhancing drugs, according to court documents unsealed late Tuesday.

Thirteen agents searched Grimsley's house in Scottsdale, Ariz., for six hours Tuesday, according to Internal Revenue Service agent Mark Lessler, who would not say what they found.

In seeking a judge's permission for the search, investigators who cracked the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative steroid scandal said Grimsley initially cooperated in the probe. He withdrew his assistance in April, but not before he allegedly made "extensive statements" about illegal drug use, "for the purpose of performance enhancement," according to the court documents.

IRS agent Jeff Novitsky told the federal judge that investigators wanted to search the right-hander's house for "any and all records showing contact or relationship with any and all amateur or professional athletes, athletic coaches or athletic trainers" regarding illicit drug use and purchases.

According to Novitsky, Grimsley told him the names of other players he believed were using, but the names of those players were blacked out of the court records.

"I have no comment about that and no idea about that," Grimsley told The Arizona Republic on Tuesday, hours before the Diamondbacks played the Philadelphia Phillies.

According to court documents, Grimsley failed a league drug test in 2003. Authorities said when he was cooperating, he admitted to using human growth hormone, amphetamines and steroids.

He added that amphetamine use was prevalent in pro baseball, and that it was placed in coffee in clubhouses -- marked "leaded" or "unleaded" to indicate which pots contained the drugs -- Novitsky wrote.

 

[Sayhey]

That would be the same Jason Grimsley who played for the Yankees in 1999 and 2000? How are you going to feel, MacNut, if the team who served "leaded" coffee was the Yanks? More to the point, this stuff is extremely widespread and goes back many decades; just how far back are we to go to clear this stuff up? Shall we subpoena everyone who played with Jim Bouton in his "Ball Four" days? What shall we do if Mays, Mantle, and Aaron used "greenies" in their days? We already know the great Mike Schmidt did - if only to experiment with them. The truth is that baseball players will look for whatever edge they can get to be competitive, and in that search for an edge many great ones have used methods that we all might think shouldn't be used. Rather than engage in a crusade to get anyone who might have used a PED our efforts would be better served by looking at the structure of the game that pushes players to use drugs that may come back to haunt them in later life. As much as I love baseball, I don't need to watch scores of players go the way of Ken Caminiti.

 

[MacNut]

Baseball needs to clean itself up before this gets worse, and when these 10 names are outed I think the darkest days in baseball history will begin so brace yourself for a turbulent ride because the game may not be able to recover.

 

[Sayhey]

Ok, for all interested parties, here are the links to the latest rumors on the Grimsley affair. I assume everyone will now start calling on Albert Pujols to retire and save the game of baseball because he is obviously guilty. First, Novitsky's affidavit and next the latest sluething about who are the names that are under the blackout.

First: The person who told Grimsley about the positive test in 2003. That’s former Royals general manager Allard Baird.

As many people have guessed, one of the “former players” who were sold out by Grimsley: Sammy Sosa. Our source(s) couldn’t confirm if the other was Rafael Palmeiro.

Nothing new or exciting about that name. Then it starts to get interesting. We’ve heard amphetamine rumors of Miguel Tejada, but we can’t confirm that. What we can confirm? The doozy.

Grimsley says that a former employee of [redacted] and personal fitness trainer to several Major League Baseball players once referred him to an amphetamine source. Later, this source — not the trainer — provided him with “amphetamines, anabolic steroids and human growth hormone.” This trainer? His name is Chris Mihlfeld, a Kansas City-based “strength and conditioning guru.” (And former Strength And Conditioning Coordinator for the Royals.)

Does Mihlfeld’s name sound familiar? If it doesn’t, he — and we assure you, this gives us no pleasure to write this — has been Albert Pujols’ personal trainer since before Pujols was drafted by the Cardinals in the 13th round of the 1999 draft. We have no confirmation that Pujols’ name is in the affidavit … but Mihlfeld’s is. If you read the document, it doesn’t say the trainer/Mihlfeld supplied all the HGH and what-not; it just says the trainer was the referrer.

Kindly remember the above is RUMOR!

 

[aloofman]

Ok, for all interested parties, here are the links to the latest rumors on the Grimsley affair. I assume everyone will now start calling on Albert Pujols to retire and save the game of baseball because he is obviously guilty. First, Novitsky's affidavit and next the latest sluething about who are the names that are under the blackout.

Kindly remember the above is RUMOR!

Man, the Royals have been a worse team than we thought!

 

[furcalchick]

Who cares if Bonds breaks the record..... A-Rod will be just be breaking it later.

but what is barry is clean and aroid isn't?

 

[Teh Don Ditty]

but what if barry is clean and aroid isn't?

Well played. But I seriously doubt Barry is clean.